Monumental Lions and the Sacred Band...

[con-fusion]

It's unfortunate when a troll brings up an interesting point, and turns a potentially serious discussion into a free-for-all of stupidity.

 

However, Artemis360, obviously in complete ignorance, brought up something that was totally and completely missed in Project:Unforgiven.

 

I am not talking about whether the Lion is meant to be a homosexual (so hold off with your ban sticks, mods). We all know that Space Marines and the Primarchs were all neutered after Rogue Trader, so the issue is entirely moot.

 

I am talking about inspiration for an army that does not break, and, in my opinion, the sexual orientation of Lionel Jonson may provide a clue.

 

I start with Plato, who's character Phaedrus in the Syposium states:

 

And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their beloved, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger?

 

Taking these remarks to heart, the late Classical Theban army included a number of male-male citizen-soldier couples who fought at the front of Theban units to bolster morale. In 378 BC, the Theban general Pelopidas formed these couples into a select unit of shock troops numbering 300 in strength. Pelopidas and his long-time friend (but not lover) Epaminondas personally led this unit, called the Sacred Band of Thebes, on 10 years worth of campaigns against the Spartans, and repeatedly crushed Spartan armies that greatly out numbered them. Noted for their utter fearlessness in battle, the Sacred Band won Theban independence and established Thebes as the pre-eminent military power in the region for 40 years.

 

This all came to an end in 338 BC, when the Thebans were defeated by Phillip II of Macedon. The Sacred Band died to a man holding the vast Macedonian army while the rest of the Theban army and its allies escaped. The Sacred Band fought and died, but it never broke. Phillip had them buried with honor together, and, in 300 BC, Thebes erected a monument on the spot. It still stands today.

 

What was that monument?

 

A lion.

[Steel Company]

Interesting points Con, and a worthy read.

[Isiah]

Yes the Sacred Band of Thebes is a very well known unit to anyone interested in military history.

 

The Lion monument is purely coincidental of course <_< (trying to kick aside lion conspiracy theories). Many Lions adorn many ancient monuments in and around the med, Asia and China either in realistic or stylised form -- it is an extremely ferocious animal after all and so much admired by both warriors and hunters. Lions are represented as metaphors for power and are seen often used in statue-form as guardians.

 

 

As for:

 

I am talking about inspiration for an army that does not break, and, in my opinion, the sexual orientation of Lionel Jonson may provide a clue.

 

Frankly I just think it's heading in not a very good direction. Yes GW probably gained inspiration for both our Primarch's, and chapter name – and yes in some degree for "inner turmoil" theme let's say as the coincidence is just too great to be pure chance.

 

Other than that, the sexual orientation motif per se is entirely a red herring when it comes to the DA so is out of any discussion I'm afraid.

 

Be warned –– any silly posts crossing that line will be blasted into orbit.

 

Cheers

I

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I second Isiah's thoughts (and words) .

 

Furthermore (and with Moderator hat off) I see no basis for discussion since by your own words

I am not talking about whether the Lion is meant to be a homosexual (so hold off with your ban sticks, mods). We all know that Space Marines and the Primarchs were all neutered after Rogue Trader, so the issue is entirely moot.

which contradicts

I am talking about inspiration for an army that does not break, and, in my opinion, the sexual orientation of Lionel Jonson may provide a clue.

Plus there isn't a single hint on GW's part for we speculate on such matters.

[Arioch]

Interesting reading, the sacred band is quiet awsome. Its not strange that they chose the Lion as the statue though. The Lion is a symbol of both strength and courage. Brave soldiers was often symbolised by this animal, like the swiss mercenaries serving in the french army in the 16th centery. No wonder that the Dark Angels is associated with this animal, as it is a symbol of their most noble qualities.

(Bye the way I saw my post in the Jonson thread was removed. Im sorry if it seemed a little harsh, but the thread just looked like trolling to me, I have nothing against other sexualities)

[Alys Dwr]

It's an interesting idea and there is no denying one will fight harder to protect the people they are closest to. But in my opinion, devout and unquestionable faith of a magnitude we cannot comprehend supercedes this in the 41st millenium (for the imperium anyway, Chaos marines are another box of frogs completely). They are the sons of their Primarchs, who each were a son of the Immortal God Emperor himself. Combine this with 10,000+years worth of indoctrination and you have a powerful mind to fight. I think it is more likely the hardwired belief in the Emperor which spurs Space Marines on, regardless of chapter orientation.

 

They are all the emperors finest And They Shall Know No Fear.

 

Not trying to poke a different hornets nest, but if anything, i see more in common with modern religeous extremists than with an elite group of soldiers from around 300bc.

 

Al