LotD save

[Seahawk]

So, in relation to my other thread in the UM section, I got to thinking about their saves.

 

I wonder...if the Legion of the Damned save is also an armor save. My defense is that the BRB lists the "Sv" category as being an armor save and nothing else. Therefore, the Legion has a 3+ armor save. Their Unyielding Spectres rule says their "save is invulnerable." Can it be both? Why or why not?

[thade]

That's a good question. It's going to come up now, what with a host of Grey Knight weapons allegedly ignoring invulnerable saves (as some of them used to do).

 

Well, on the one hand, that 3+ is listed under their Armor save column in that stat list. And the rule that makes it invulnerable doesn't say "it no longer counts as an armor save". But then, it doesn't say "it still counts as an armor save" either. This is dodgy. Clearly an oversight.

 

I'd be curious to hear what other people's thoughts are. I'll grind over it some more myself, but I'm admittedly at a loss.

[Iron Father Rik]

They only get an invulnerable save. The rule states:

 

Their saving throw is invulnerable.

 

This means that the armour save that you take for them, the one that is listed in their profile, is an invulnerable save, not both an armour save and an invulnerable save.

 

Another way of translating it is that the (saving) throw of the dice that you make for them is an invulnerable one. Not that the (saving) throw of the dice that you make for them could be an invulnerable one if you want it to be, but not if you don't.

[MagicMan]

Would have thought it'd be FAQ'd if it wasn't just an Invuln.

[meatball]

It's the same case as assasins in codex DH. They have a save listed in their profile but it is not an armor save it is an invulnerable save.

 

The wording should have been "their saving throw is also invulnerable" in order for them to get both armor and invulnerable saves. Too bad though since they still wear power armor.

[thade]

Don't be so quick to dismiss how confusing this actually is.

 

It could be the case that the author(s) of the 5th Ed Marine codex didn't take into account weapons that potentially ignore invulnerable saves, just assuming that "you'd always take the best save available to you and invuln saves will always be available." That's my concern; it is just a suspicion though.

 

However, thinking back now, one of the advantages GK were intended to have over Demons was that Demons by and large only have invulnerable saves, so attacks that ignore them are appropriately devastating against them. Perhaps the same implication exists here. Not saying the LotD are necessarily demons, but that they - like Demons - may only have an invulnerable save. That interpretation isn't really that weird.

 

So on the one hand, my concern (first interpretation) seems unfounded. On the other hand, there is a small - if not-exactly-current-edition - precedent. Not sure where to land with this, but I'm leaning towards Iron Father's take.

[Iron Father Rik]

I don't think it's confusing at all thade. It states that "their saving throw is invulnerable". This means the save that they have, listed in their profile, is invulnerable. Not that they also have an invulnerable save on top of the save listed in their profile, otherwise it would say so - usually something along the lines of "they also have an invulnerable save" as is used for other units that have both types of save.

[Sabadin]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

[pingo]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

You, sir, are a genius.

 

It seems very simple now. They have no power armour (or armour at all), so no armour save.

[thade]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

 

This is pretty win, right here. Open and shut.

[Seahawk]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

That's not a valid argument at all. Not a single unit in the Eldar and Necron codexes has armor in its unit entry (I'm betting the Witchhunter book is the same). If you want to say "it's a 5th edition thing," well then what about the Chaos codex (a 5th edition ready book)? The Daemon Prince, Lucius, and Obliterators don't have armor in their wargear section, yet they all get armor saves.

 

GW is too inconsistent to be able to use that as a valid point, in my opinion.

 

I can agree with Rik's explanation though. Just like in many other rules fails, if they had simply added one more word to the sentence, there would be no question.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Well, the Necrons don't have armor, more just the fact that they're made of metal. Considering the number of codices that now list armor, I'd say it's a perfectly valid argument.

[greatcrusade08]

generally id agree with the majority that it seems to indicate no normal save.. however i pride myself on being a fair gamer and if my opponent like seahawk above said they thought the save was a normal save, id let them have it.

it makes sense, since they are modelled with PA, they ARE space marines and nothing bar a bit of poor wording can prove they dont have it..

 

in most RAW arguments the "no armour save" camp would win, but rules queries arent always about who has the best argument, these decisions often have to be made over the tabletop, where fairness and common sense prevail over stone cold logic

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I agree, fluff-wise, they should have a normal save, and if anyone asked for a normal save, I would gladly give them a normal save. Unfortunately, GW a) forgot about that, or B ) intended it that way for some reason.

[Iron Father Rik]

This is by no means an intent to start an argument about this, but they aren't normal space marines. They may not even be flesh and blood as we know it, and therefore they also wouldn't wear normal, solid, adamantium and ceramite power armour. It may once have been such, but the whole thing about them is that they may well not be corporeal, physical beings wearing corporeal, physical armour. Ergo I propose that if you use the argument that they are space marines modelled in power armour so by the fluff they should have a normal armour save, you have to also take this into account. Incorporeal power armour could very easily not grant a normal armour save, protecting it's "wearer" in a very different way, and therefore would class under the invulnerable save heading and not the armour save heading.

 

However, as we all know, basing rules decisions on the fluff is dangerous ground, open to far wider interpretation than the rules themselves usually are. For example I say that their armour "could very easily not grant a normal armour save", but then again, it just as easily could. Hell, for all we know it could be like Pokemon, and only special attacks like fire and water can hurt these "ghosts"! And that is why they call it science-fiction. But as far as I am concerned, ghosts aren't corporeal and their armour would not stop a bullet in the same way normal armour would, so it would be an invulnerable save rather than an armour save.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

That's not a valid argument at all. Not a single unit in the Eldar and Necron codexes has armor in its unit entry (I'm betting the Witchhunter book is the same). If you want to say "it's a 5th edition thing," well then what about the Chaos codex (a 5th edition ready book)? The Daemon Prince, Lucius, and Obliterators don't have armor in their wargear section, yet they all get armor saves.

 

GW is too inconsistent to be able to use that as a valid point, in my opinion.

 

I can agree with Rik's explanation though. Just like in many other rules fails, if they had simply added one more word to the sentence, there would be no question.

Actually, in this case it is.

 

In every single unit entry in Codex: Space Marines, with the notable exception of the Legion of the Damned lists armour for non-vehicle units. So it's pretty clear that the Legion of the Damned do not possess an armour save, but only an invulnerable save.

[dswanick]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

Neither do Fenrisian Wolves in the Space Wolves Codex (6+ save for Fen Wolves, 4+ for Cyber Wolves). But the Wolves have a value in the (Sv) column which is defined on Pg.7 of the BRB as denoting their ARMOUR SAVE. So while both Wolves and LotD don't wear any kind of physical armor, they are listed as having an Armor Save ny their profile. By that RAW they have an armor save unless GW FAQs it for clarity.

[Iron Father Rik]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

Neither do Fenrisian Wolves in the Space Wolves Codex (6+ save for Fen Wolves, 4+ for Cyber Wolves). But the Wolves have a value in the (Sv) column which is defined on Pg.7 of the BRB as denoting their ARMOUR SAVE. So while both Wolves and LotD don't wear any kind of physical armor, they are listed as having an Armor Save ny their profile. By that RAW they have an armor save unless GW FAQs it for clarity.

 

By RAW, LotD don't because it specifically says in their unit entry that their save is an invulnerable one.

[pingo]

In every single unit entry in Codex: Space Marines, with the notable exception of the Legion of the Damned lists armour for non-vehicle units. So it's pretty clear that the Legion of the Damned do not possess an armour save, but only an invulnerable save.

 

I feel I should point out that Servitors also have no armour listed in their wargear, yet have a 4+ Sv characteristic.

 

However, the lack of armour in their wargear is striking. It's not proof, but it's interesting.

[dswanick]

The simplest answer is "They don't have any armor under wargear in their unit entry"

Neither do Fenrisian Wolves in the Space Wolves Codex (6+ save for Fen Wolves, 4+ for Cyber Wolves). But the Wolves have a value in the (Sv) column which is defined on Pg.7 of the BRB as denoting their ARMOUR SAVE. So while both Wolves and LotD don't wear any kind of physical armor, they are listed as having an Armor Save ny their profile. By that RAW they have an armor save unless GW FAQs it for clarity.

 

By RAW, LotD don't because it specifically says in their unit entry that their save is an invulnerable one.

 

Please point me to the Rule As Written that states that an gaining an invulnerable save causes a unit to loose an armor save...

Just because GW might mean that the 3+ value is also the units Invulnerable Save value doesn't mean the unit looses the Armor Save (SV), unless it specifically states this to be so. You are Inferring that the Armor Save is lost, which might be GWs intent (but that's RAI not RAW). The wording is vague and open to interpretation and mis-interpretation. So until GW FAQs it, it's going to be a "discuss with opponent/dice off" situation.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Seahawk:

But the servitors, like the Necrons, have a built-in save from there metal bitz. None of GW's servitor models are shown wearing armor. Only bionics.

[Sabadin]

Look at the actual wording for "unyielding spectres", notice how it never once mentions their "armor save" only "saving throw". Ever other ability that functions in conjunction with a normal armor save states "confers an invulnerable save of x", if GW honestly meant for them to have a regular 3+ to go with it, it would've been errata'd by now.

[Seahawk]

That only solidifies my point: as long as there's a number in the (Sv) characteristic, the model gets an armor save. They don't need to have armor in their unit entry to get that armor save; it's just there to be used.

 

Saving throw isn't just any one kind, it's a category of things to do. Armor saves, Invulnerable save, and Cover saves are all in that category, just like Morale Checks, Pinning Tests, and Psychic Tests are all in the Leadership Test category. So, does Unyielding Spectres then make armor, invul, and cover saves as all being invulnerable (ie, you can always take it no matter what)? Sure seems like it to me.

[LardO'Blood]

That only solidifies my point: as long as there's a number in the (Sv) characteristic, the model gets an armor save. They don't need to have armor in their unit entry to get that armor save; it's just there to be used.

 

Saving throw isn't just any one kind, it's a category of things to do. Armor saves, Invulnerable save, and Cover saves are all in that category, just like Morale Checks, Pinning Tests, and Psychic Tests are all in the Leadership Test category. So, does Unyielding Spectres then make armor, invul, and cover saves as all being invulnerable (ie, you can always take it no matter what)? Sure seems like it to me.

This is how I'll run it if someone disagrees that they have an armor save. Alternatively, you can say, "Look at the freakin' model, it is wearing power armor right? WYSIWYG???"

[Isiah]

That only solidifies my point: as long as there's a number in the (Sv) characteristic, the model gets an armor save. They don't need to have armor in their unit entry to get that armor save; it's just there to be use

 

In this instance I'm going to respectfully disagree. It specifically states that their saving throw is invulnearble. Thus an invulnerable save only it is and not an armour save nor does it say anywhere that they get both.

 

Remember in the Chaos Daemon codex they all get a value in their (Sv) characteristic too –– but it is only an invulnerable save as it's changed by an army-wide rule outside of each unit's entry, and if they have an armour save too it's noted separately.

 

The fact that this unit may or may not wear power armour is moot as we are told quite clearly what type of (Sv) they are getting.

 

Cheers

I