LotD save

[Sabadin]

What I find funny is that it's been played this way for years when nobody played GK, and nobody argued it. But, now that GK are about to see a spark in popularity this is suddenly being argued against all over the place.

[Phosis]

Their saving throw is invulnerable.

 

Easy.

[greatcrusade08]

Their saving throw is invulnerable.

 

Easy.

 

i dont think thats the deabte tbh.. its about whether or not thier save is a normal one too

[Muller]

Just tossing the same wording back and fourth makes this look like a couple of children's argument.

There's been some very valid and interesting points on both sides, I went in with my mind set to only an invul, but now I feel that I cannot tell, far too good points have been made (referencing foremost to other models in other codicies with similar circumstances) that gives LotD having both saves to ignore it.

I look like it the way you'd look at a court case; can REASONABLE DOUBT be established? if yes then you rather free than convict.

Thus I feel that unless GW puts this out in a FAQ I will, at least, settle on one of the two sides with my opponent(s) before every game.

[Grey Mage]

Their saving throw is invulnerable.

 

Easy.

 

i dont think thats the deabte tbh.. its about whether or not thier save is a normal one too

Yes, but thats silly.

 

'There saving throw is invulnerable' is a few words short of 'There saving throw is invulnerable as well as an armor save of equal value'.

 

Most units, including those in C:SM, that have an invulnerable save as well as an armor save will say something about "and they are also granted a 3+ invulnerable save'.

 

There are a number of good points here.... but in my opinion the idea is absurd- and is made more so by the fact that this didnt come up until the grey knights were imminent for a release.

[greatcrusade08]

probably becuase very few things ignore inv saves up to this point, so it was never necessary to ask the question.

i too agree that they dont get a normal save by RAW, but the wording is unclear (to the point of being absent either way).. we have no set precedent to go by.

therefore if my opponent was asking for a save id give him one.

 

i guess people will argue that it comes down to wording, which can be interpreted both ways

[Decoy]

I fail to see how this is so much of an issue.

 

In the statline, the LotD "save" is given as 3+. There is no 3+/3+, no Termie version that grants 2+/5++, nothing that even vaguely hits at two types of saves.

 

 

The unit has a 3+ save, and that save is invulnerable. How are people getting confused by this? (I'm not being snarky, I genuinely don't understand how this could even remotely be seen as debatable.)

[Seahawk]

as long as there's a number in the (Sv) characteristic, the model gets an armor save

 

"Saving throw" isn't just any one kind, it's a category of things to do (it is a title afterall). Armor saves, Invulnerable save, and Cover saves are all in that category, just like Morale Checks, Pinning Tests, and Psychic Tests are all in the Leadership Test category. So, does Unyielding Spectres then make armor, invul, and cover saves as all being invulnerable (ie, you can always take it no matter what)? Sure seems like it to me.

 

The reason this never came up before is because NOBODY uses the LotD. I have been extensively since January, so now the issue is coming up.

[thade]

The reason this never came up before is because NOBODY uses the LotD. I have been extensively since January, so now the issue is coming up.

 

When half or more of your opponents play Space Marines, and half-again of those opponents field a Librarian with Null Zone, this is definitely going to come up. =) GK or no.

[Grey Mage]

The reason this never came up before is because NOBODY uses the LotD. I have been extensively since January, so now the issue is coming up.

 

When half or more of your opponents play Space Marines, and half-again of those opponents field a Librarian with Null Zone, this is definitely going to come up. =) GK or no.

Exactly, not to mention- the current GK codex has psycannons to ignore invulnerable saves. And then theres fateweaver lists for C:Daemons.

 

No, I understand- theres a number in the SV area of the profile. The rules for LOTD tell us this save is invulnerable. Not that they have an invulnerable save of a particular number, but that their armor save is instead invulnerable.

[thade]

It really is an awkward way to put it; there it is though.

[Seahawk]

Wordplay aside, I guess I can roll with it just being a 3+ Invulnerable save. Oh, GW has one-word-failed me again...:D

 

[edit] ha, actually it hasn't come up a single time where it's been an actual issue. One person in my area plays SM (other than me), and he doesn't take librarians. There are no Daemons/GK players in my area except for me and another guy, and even if one of us did bust them out, we don't take Fateweaver; waste o space. And naturally, nobody uses the LotD except for me.

[thade]

Wordplay aside, I guess I can roll with it just being a 3+ Invulnerable save. Oh, GW has one-word-failed me again...;)

 

[edit] ha, actually it hasn't come up a single time where it's been an actual issue. One person in my area plays SM (other than me), and he doesn't take librarians. There are no Daemons/GK players in my area except for me and another guy, and even if one of us did bust them out, we don't take Fateweaver; waste o space. And naturally, nobody uses the LotD except for me.

 

Sooooo you just dropped this in here to fuddle us all up, eh? :P

[Seahawk]

Ha, yea pretty much. Well it's a potential quandary, and I like solving it before it becomes a real problem.

[Sabadin]

Ha, yea pretty much. Well it's a potential quandary, and I like solving it before it becomes a real problem.

 

Never hurts to do your research before the surge of "Sprue Grey Knights that look suspiciously like SW" suddenly begins next month :)

[thade]

Ha, yea pretty much. Well it's a potential quandary, and I like solving it before it becomes a real problem.

 

Never hurts to do your research before the surge of "Sprue Grey Knights that look suspiciously like SW" suddenly begins next month ;)

 

No disagreement there. However, opportunity to give Seahawk crap is very rare (he's very thorough), so I couldn't let it slide.

[Roesor]

It would seem to me that on one hand they are the stuff of the warp, which usually lacks armour saves on the other possessed marines and daemon princes are warpspawned and have armour, but also don't get sch a mighty inv.

I would say the strength of their inv implies that they are less substansial or 'real' as normal warp spawned warriors and so their armour isn't applicable.

Psycannon meat.

[Frogstaff]

I agree, fluff-wise, they should have a normal save

How you drew that conclusion is a mystery. By the fluff, no, of course they don't have armor. They're imperial daemons.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But they are still marines wearing armor. Unless my eyes mistake me. From the description, I get the impression that they 'teleport' into battle, and, using their powers gained from being stuck in the warp, have a field that is created by their armor and willpower protecting them. Also, you have the awesome factor.

[Grey Mage]

That same argument could be used to say predators only have AV 11 fronts.

 

It doesnt work like that.

[Iron Father Rik]

But they are still marines wearing armor. Unless my eyes mistake me. From the description, I get the impression that they 'teleport' into battle, and, using their powers gained from being stuck in the warp, have a field that is created by their armor and willpower protecting them. Also, you have the awesome factor.

 

I would disagree with his. I didn't think they were "still marines wearing armour" that are alive somewhere with a base and spaceships and they teleport into battle. I thought they were ghosts, proper poltergeist type ghosts - aka spirits, daemons etc - that appear inexplicably and fight for the imperium and then vanish again mysteriously. The fluff is full of stories of inquisitors trying to hunt them down, or witnessing them but mysteriously being unable to get close to them, or find any trace of them afterwards, which sounds to me like daemons or spirits, and not real marines that have teleported into battle from some kind of base or starship (either of which they would require in order to be able to teleport in).

 

Just because the model appears to be wearing armour, does not mean it definitely has armour in game, especially not if it is daemonic or spirit-like in nature. As Grey Mage alluded to, appearances aren't everything, especially not in the 41st millenium. If you go by this you could then argue that my marine doesn't have a helmet on so his armour save is lowered incase he gets shot in the head, or his bolt gun only has one magazine so he can only shoot in 4 out of7 turns of the game before he runs out of ammo. Yes the models appear to be wearing power armour, but who's to say it is real, physical, bullet-stopping adamantium? A model with armour on tells you nothing about the construction of a material - it's density and the materials it is made from - to draw a conclusion like that. Besides, how often do people model a marine in power armour, but claim it to be artificer armour, without painting on the extra crafted details to make it stand out as artificer crafted armour? Likewise you could model a LotD marine in ordinary power armour but really it's magic ghostly invulnerable armour, which it in fact is. Now I understand WYSIWYG, and I'm not advocating modelling them all as dreadnoughts or terminators and saying they are just in power armour, that would be ridiculous, but simply saying "the model is sculpted in power armour, so he must get a 3+ normal armour save too" is not how it works.

[thade]

That same argument could be used to say predators only have AV 11 fronts.

 

It doesnt work like that.

 

GM is spot on here. If you really want to see how fluff can support their not having armor, keep in mind that Power Armor is a physical thing - a righteous blessed shell of endurance and strength - whereas the Legion of the Damned are ethereal/"ghosts"/imperial demons has has been said. A ghost can look like whatever it wants to. These ones want to look like Space Marines. It doesn't mean they're wearing holy Power Armor...just that their visage looks very much like they are.

 

In most game systems I've played in, a ghost's attacks and durability are each based on Willpower/Charisma/something other than a physical trait, for they have none. While WH40k has no system in place to model "ethereal" units directly, denying them an armor save works well enough. This is radically off-topic, but perhaps makes more sense to you?

 

More on topic, they don't have Power Armor listed as wargear and their save is said to be interpreted as Invulnerable; RAW they have no armor save. By inferring that they have armor because they appear to be wearing it, you are falling into RAI. That's out of bounds for us here. <3

[Frogstaff]

And this is also a case where RAI is perfectly clear too. Unlike every other marine in the codex, they don't have armor listed under their wargear, yet somehow still have a 3+ save, which their rules state as being invulnerable. The intent here is perfectly clear.

[greatcrusade08]

And this is also a case where RAI is perfectly clear too. Unlike every other marine in the codex, they don't have armor listed under their wargear, yet somehow still have a 3+ save, which their rules state as being invulnerable. The intent here is perfectly clear.

 

whilst im not arguing against you, i would like to point out that the above argument carries no wieght.. there are other units in the dex that have no armour listed and yet have an armour save (which is not inv).. servitors would be the best example

[Ming]

I vote for 3+/3+. And if you play vs me, I'll give you that. No questions. I'll have to see if that is how it gets posted on lists in Army Builder. Since I do not have the models, I dnot's use them. But is stacked vs Vanguard with stormshields, or terminators with stormshields, they may be a good deal. They are one of the hidden cheese units in the CSM book, and highly overlooked. Should be considered for any deep strike or pod list. As to how the DHs special weapons will deal with them, the models have armor, carry weapons, and shoot bullets or other things from the 'non ghostly plane' so unless told otherwise by GW, 3+/3+ is the assumption from here.

 

Some day I'll be getting punded by orks, and maybe they'll show up and save the day....