pryor Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 In your opinion which might be better, artificier armour or storm shield? Both cost the same points but the artificer armour allows you to get a bonus attack for 2 close combat weapons whilst improving the normal save whilst the storm shield improves the invunerable save but takes away the opportunity to get the extra attack. Your opinions please (other than "take both" if possible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 i find the biggest threat to characters is a power fist, so id go with the storm shield.. id take a relic blade though ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionTheImp Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 If you're making a CC-oriented Captain (as I would hope you are), the Storm Shield is better because in close combat they can choose to specifically target him, and Power Weapon attacks and those instant death causing attacks are a major problem. Artificer armor is better if you're shooting because you can mitigate whatever instant-death causing hits to squadmates while adding in some better defense against small arms fire. Also, with a Relic Blade, you can't get an extra attack anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Rik Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I'd go for the Storm Shield personally. I know from experience that the Relic Blade-Storm Shield combo works very nicely indeed, as many people on these forums will attest, and I feel that the invulnerable save, along with his already decent enough 3+ armour save is the best protection. Your opponent won't be trying to take him out with trivial things like lasguns or bolters, or chainswords. They will direct the stronger, meatier stuff at him, and having that invulnerable protection is a must. If you want to go by the maths, the storm shield 3+ save improves his chances of surviving powerful hits by 33% over a 4+ Iron Halo save, and that can make a big difference. The Articifer armour 2+ save only has a 25% markup over power armour's 3+ save, and that's only for normal armour. As an aside, in terms of weapons, specifically combat weapons, I'd always opt for a power weapon, or ideally relic blade, as you don't want to waste his higher initiative on a powerfist or thunder hammer. Let his sergeant lug them about with him instead. (Weyhey! Post "787"! I'm a Dreamliner! Wooosh!..... ahem... sorry -_-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeonic Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 More to the point, he should have to make a minimal amount of saves vs standard weapons as he should always be with a squad you can shove as many standard shots off on as possible. In CC with a small base footprint it's more difficult to bring enough standard attacks against him to bring him down, so what you have to worry about is mainly powerfists/thunderhammers and DCCWs. If you're chosing between one or the other, the SS will offer better survivability the vast majority of the threats an IC will face. The arti armor really only protects him from weight of attacks and plasma overheats, and sine he has 3 wounds and a squad of bodies this won't be as dangerous to him most of the time. Also +1 to relic blades. Single Lightning claw is statistically better than a PW+BP(rather better average performance), so there's rarely a need for the attack bonus(well, unless you go twinclaws which is slightly more killy than a relic blade vs T4 or less anyways). With the 5th edition codex pricing, there's very little reason to ever buy a basic power weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Rik Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Also, Storm Shields look awesome, and take far less work to look more awesome than Articifer Armour does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_CC Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 In your opinion which might be better, artificier armour or storm shield?Both cost the same points but the artificer armour allows you to get a bonus attack for 2 close combat weapons whilst improving the normal save whilst the storm shield improves the invunerable save but takes away the opportunity to get the extra attack. Your opinions please (other than "take both" if possible). The artificier armour increases standard save from 3+ to 2+ (from 67% to 83%) and SS increases invulnerable save from 4++ to 3++ (from 50% to 67%). Althought, the improve seems to be equal, it is not, because the relative increment is no the same (83%-67%)/83% < (67%-50%/67%). In relation with the extra attack, I think it should no be considered, because we don´t even know the weapons that the captain will take. For example, if he takes power fist, the opportunity cost of choosing SS is smaller. Perhaps, the key question is related to instant death, and SS is better in offering protection against it. So, my suggestion is SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Always the Storm Shield unless you want to use a ranged weapon with your relic blade, or do not face many power weapons, rending attacks, MCs, power fists etc. For example, my Captain model has a relic blade and hellfire round boltgun, so the storm shield isn't an option for him. The main reason is because it looks cool, and he rides with Sternguard or a plasma Command squad, so I don't have then option of a storm shield. This is worth remembering as well, that at times you might not have access to both due to other choices. However, while one is better than the other, they are both situational. If you take nothing but plasma shots all day long then the artificer armour isn't needed, the storm shield is. If, on the other hand you take nothing but bolt shots all day long then it is the artificer armour that will help more. In the end, your metagame will probably dictate the choice as well. However, overall, and in a vacuum, a 2+ save is nice, but it won't help you when you're getting hit by a power fist, so in this instance the storm shield is better. Of course if you have the points lying around take both, but if you want to prioritize then put the storm shield above artificer armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 You can also allocate wounds onto the Storm Shield that might ignore armour (plasma weapons etc) to save wounds on the squad. I do it all the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 You can also allocate wounds onto the Storm Shield that might ignore armour (plasma weapons etc) to save wounds on the squad. I do it all the time! Here's a thought. Related, but a bit off topic. Now Sometimes, depending on the situation I will allocate a krak missile to my arty armour Captain. I still have my 2+ save, and will normally be fine. However, it is a risk. Now, with an Iron Halo save you're not likely to allocate meltaguns and lascannons unless you have insane luck. Does this change with a storm shield for anyone? I know I would be less likely to allocate plasma to an Iron Halo, but I'd do it if I have all my wounds with a SS (or equivalent). But I don't think I'd be as confident against meltas and lascannons. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I must say I used to allocate S8 weapons to my Master with a thought, with some games it paying off and others I regreted the decision... Basically I re-evaluated my decision making process and decided to only do so if rolling a poorly and it all going wrong doesn't comprimse my plans. Too many times I have lost a Master to melta weapons to save a Honour Guard model when I'd be better off with the last model being the Master... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I generally give him both, because im famously bad at rolling armour saves, and i really need to give my characters all the protection i can. If you want to see a squad of tacticals lose half their men to a volley of lasguns, give me the dice, and i can make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pryor Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 If you want to see a squad of tacticals lose half their men to a volley of lasguns, give me the dice, and i can make it happen. By the gods, a player like me! (So much so I've borrowed it for my signature if you don't mind :P ) My problem however is the points cost but it looks like the storm shield is the way to go. Thanks for the feedback brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Never thought of using a single lightning claw and SS before reading this thread. Better than PW+SS because of the loss of the extra attack and not as expensive as RB+SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I'm in the artificer armor boat. I run a Bike Captain most days, and he's typically attached to a Command Squad. Command Squads are small, and every member is useful/important. The ability to soak normal wounds onto my 2+ save Captain with a FNP roll on failures is spectacular. If I'm feeling lucky, I can even soak a krak missile shot onto him, though if I roll a 1, he evaporates in a pink mist... I've never felt the storm shield to be worth the points on a Captain. I plan ahead for assaults, and make sure my Captain is either the closest model to the enemy, and will be engaging an non-Instant Death model (sergeants with powerfists, force weapons, etc), and the remainder of the squad locks down the powerfist so it can't engage my Captain. Maybe a stormshield is more useful for a Captain that isn't as mobile, and can't pick his battles like a Bike Captain can. My guess is that the choice comes down to whether you want your Captain to be the Last Man Standing (stormshield) or the First Man In (artificer armor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Personally, the first thing I'd do is give him a relic blade. That's all I'd normally go with. If I really wanted him to be in combat a lot (rather than just jumping in when necessary to turn a losing combat around) then I'd give him both the storm shield and artificer armor. But if I was going to spend more points, I'd definately go with both. Go the whole hog or go cheap, I say! I plan ahead for assaults, and make sure my Captain is either the closest model to the enemy, and will be engaging an non-Instant Death model (sergeants with powerfists, force weapons, etc), and the remainder of the squad locks down the powerfist so it can't engage my Captain. Maybe a stormshield is more useful for a Captain that isn't as mobile, and can't pick his battles like a Bike Captain can. ^ This. Because really, who takes captains without giving them a bike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Personally, the first thing I'd do is give him a relic blade. That's all I'd normally go with. If I really wanted him to be in combat a lot (rather than just jumping in when necessary to turn a losing combat around) then I'd give him both the storm shield and artificer armor. But if I was going to spend more points, I'd definately go with both. Go the whole hog or go cheap, I say! I plan ahead for assaults, and make sure my Captain is either the closest model to the enemy, and will be engaging an non-Instant Death model (sergeants with powerfists, force weapons, etc), and the remainder of the squad locks down the powerfist so it can't engage my Captain. Maybe a stormshield is more useful for a Captain that isn't as mobile, and can't pick his battles like a Bike Captain can. ^ This. Because really, who takes captains without giving them a bike? Ermm, I do. 165ts for a relic blade, digi weapons, boltgun, hellfire rounds and arty armour. Sits in a Sternguard squad, contributing to their shooting (which is normally hellfire rounds), helps mitigate shooting casualties with his artificer armour, and when they get charged he has his relic blade and superior profile to help them out in combat. I could give him a storm shield, but I love the model I made for him, and the couple of extra boltgun shots hitting on a 2 and wounding on a 2 can be helpful. If course, he competes with my Libby for game time, but at the moment the only reason my Libby is around is cheapness, he can't block a power or get his own power off even if you paid him, so for combat prowess I'm trying to put my Captain in. And he's done all right with his Iron Halo, resisting a few power klaw attacks from a Warboss to contest an objective and win me a game, killing numerous models, including a time he hot footed it across the board, soaking up a multi-melta shot, and charging a 10 man pack of Grey Hunters, killing all bar two before they ran, taking only one wound and saving every power fist strike that hit. Also used a similar Captain to above, just with a storm shield instead of hellfire rounds and boltgun, and jump pack. Very expensive but dangerous close combat character to put into an Assault squad. With this Captain, if I didn't have the points I'd take a storm shield over arty armour to catch those power fists and meltaguns when they're levelled on him. But main reason I don't take bike Captains? Hate bikes, except attack bikes. So I have no need to put him on a bike, as I don't want the biker Command squad, or the bike troops, so for me he's cheaper and better for my army on foot. But just because I don't take a bike Captain doesn't stop me from taking a Captain no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Tough question as you can see. I ignore the issue largely by taking Kantor. Otherwise I'm in the artsy-relic-hellfire-digi camp (using the AOB captain). I always take librarians in TDA and SS....off topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 just because I don't take a bike Captain doesn't stop me from taking a Captain no? Yes, but most people seem to prefer other HQs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 just because I don't take a bike Captain doesn't stop me from taking a Captain no? Yes, but most people seem to prefer other HQs. Not exactly, I've commented on lots of lists with people who were using foot Captains instead of Libbys. True, there is a case that for cost effectiveness, unless you put your Captain on a bike you might as well take a Libby, but the brilliance of this Codex is that you can take any choice you feel like taking, and it will still have a good impact on the table. In the end it comes down to playstyle and load out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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