Grimtooth Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Deleted Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 there is an image of Bjorn from the collected visions book years back, most of us refer to that picture and go from there, along with the original story in the book about the Burning of Prospero. --EDIT-- damn iPhone! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2678867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 So what weapon do we think Bjorn the Fell-Handed used after losing his limb from which he earned his name He lost his limb while wielding an axe. Where did this come from again? Per our codex, while interned within the sarcophgus he swaps out his ranged weapon, however his dread ccw remains to be a wolf claw-like device without the rerolls of course. So if a Heresy era Bjorn was to be modeled, how would you represent him gearwise as a Wolf Guard, Wolf Guard Battle Leader, and Wolf Lord since he pretty much filled each of those roles? Bjorn's personal banner shows him as a Marine with a Lightning Claw/Wolf Claw on his left arm. It was apparently his favored weapon in life, and the real reason he earned the appellation "the Fell-Handed". He kept the same weapon when entombed in a Dreadnought. Although the rules don't match anymore, back when Bjorn was invented (1992 or so), his dreadnought weapon really was a Lightning Claw, and not a DCCW (they hadn't invented that yet). Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2678877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 It's from the novel Prospero Burns by Abnett. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal105 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 well that explanes it all the info i have read always had him with a lightning / wolf claw on his one hand as his perfeared weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 It's from the novel Prospero Burns by Abnett. Ah, so it is to be ignored then. Carry on. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 It's from the novel Prospero Burns by Abnett. Ah, so it is to be ignored then. Carry on. V That is just being ignorant then. While it is BL, the book added to what we know about the VI. Bjorn's surname seems to actually make sense now beyond just a lightining claw and dread ccw lighting claw. Seriously, purists are a one of the greatest parts of game systems and also the worse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Well, each is going to choose what to follow and what not to. The problem is that the novels don't necessarily reflect the history in the rules and codices. Hell, even the codices are filled with contradictions. That's the beauty and the failure of the fluff. We each just choose which version to follow or adhere to. It can be based on when you started gaming (I started during Rouge Trader, but most of my stuff is consistent with 2nd edition, when I did the bulk of my gaming). Or it can simply be based on the version you like best. In either case, there are very few "ignorant" responses. We can each play with our toy soldiers how we want. But if you ask for opinions, you'll get them. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I agree with Grimfoe. :) @Brother Ramses, may I ask.. have you read other sources or references about Bjorn the Fell-Handed? as in older codex's such as 2nd Edition SW: Codex, index astartes II, index astartes dreadnought articles that features the 1st Battle of the Fang article, Horus Heresy:Collected Visions books, along with The Battle of Prospero by Graham McNeil pg 136 of the collected visions. If you want to read a good story about the Burning of Prospero. I suggest you look up The Battle of Prospero by Graham McNeil in the Collected Visions. picture references from what "purist" are telling you - http://www.warseer.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2115 (Bjorn's Venerable Dreadnought Banner/Personal Banner) - http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/colour.html (scroll down to part 5, and click on image 5. There you see Bjorn during the Crusade/Heresy. Part 7 in his gallery shows more Space Wolves from the Collected Visions books) Adrian Smith's artwork of Bjorn has been a reference in making an actual model during pre-heresy. And I believe, our own Wolf Lord Mjolnir went with Adrian's artwork to base his Bjorn model. Going with what you read from Abnett's Prospero Burns, does that make us "purist" ignorant? when in fact and in a way, that makes you ignorant, since your reference and influences were in fact from a limited perspective? It's so easy for most people to call others purist, based on the fact that you yourself believe them, to be simply ignorant in certain views, of what you think you know, and what you think they, the purist don't know.... You have to realize and see, that most of us who have read older sources, and started playing Space Wolves since the early 90s have known the fluff and the foundations that was set from them. Those said sources and articles have become something we got to know as fact. I though Valerian's comment was hilarious! and you would understand if you read the story in the collected visions, and the major contradictions made from Abnett. Bjorn had a larger role in the collected visions story, since the battle in Prospero was mainly from his perspective. And what happens to him and how, is IMHO way better than what happened in Abnett's re-telling. Actually, Abnett's re-telling doesn't do justice to Bjorn and how he came to be.... now with that statement alone, and that spoiler given to you from me, does that make you ignorant? no, your just missing out because your limited in the sources of information. So now a new book comes along, which may or may not even contradict nor add-onto what we "purist" once knew. From there you go on without knowing or doing some research about the history of said background. Does that make you wrong? no, it just limits your views. The only thing wrong here was outright saying something, without merit or calling someone ignorant, simply because, is really the only thing wrong in this picture! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 It is an ignorant statement because it picks and chooses what should be valued based on what his opinion is of Prospero Burns despite it being from the Black Library as was Collected Visions. Taken as a whole, do we know that Bjorn was always equipped with a wolf claw? Is it coincidence that his arm was consumed by demonic fire in Prospero Burns so Abnett uses that to refer to him being the Fell-Handed ala fel fire? Doesn't Collected Visions also make a reference that his arm was cut off by Custodes Valdor? But wait, the only possible way he got the name Fell-Handed was because he had a wolf cla right? And as I mentiioned Black Library hated or not, is just like Collected Visions is another Black Library publication which despite objections to the contrary can be taken as canon as well. If you champion one version of events from Black Library you have to consider the other version of events from Black Library as well. As for one of the references for Bjorn and his surname, he was given that by Russ himself, but when? Was it due to the events on Prospero as described by Abnett or was it just a name given to him by Russ. Is there a reference given somewhere that the name was given specifically because he had a wolf claw? I have seen references for him fighting alongside Russ during the Horus Heresy, but then the Battle of Prospero was not duriing the Horus Heresy. It may have be a precursor or what could be considered one of the begining events of the HH, but it was not during the HH which we are told Bjorn fought alongside Russ and where his surname came from. I stand by my post. To open and shut the door on the information given by the same source because it does not mesh with your purist opinion is ignorant. To be a pure purist, you take all the information provided and take it all in account. Even your excellent links and information are still limited in that while you champion Black Library publications you disregard those that you do not agree with. That is being close-minded to anything you deem not worthy. I can look at all aspects given and form and open-minded view of everything while not saying one account of information should be ignored while another should be eleelevated My opinion stands as following: Bjorn was equipped as Kasper saw him at the beginning of the book and thereafter up until the Battle of Prospero where he lost his arm at which time his prosthetic was fitted. Bjorn could easily be said to have earned his place alongside Russ for his actions during the battle of Prospero as well as his elevation to Grey Hunter. Either case can be made that Russ gave him his surname for having a wolf claw or the circumstances leading to him having lost his arm during the Battle of Prospero. The easy compromise would be that is was a combination of both circumstances that led to his surname. Just fyi, my original post had the different iterations of Bjorn with a wolf claw in every instance with his ranged weapon being a combi-weapon to represent his dreadnought form of always equipped with his special dread ccw, but different ranged options. I cut it out to see what others would come up with for discussion and reasoning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 I would take my summation of the events regarding the loss of Bjorn's arm one step further; Could the account of Valdor having to cut Bjorn's arm off simply the cover story whereas the story that he lost it to a demonic Warmaster Horus would want to be kept secret? With some brainstorming of possibilities, the two can mesh into believable circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 wait, so your saying I'm ignorant? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 "When Bjorn suffered mortal wounds during the Proxima Rebellion he was incarcerated in the Dreadnought which still bears his remains. though rebuilt and maintained by generations of Iron Priests, his sarcophagus remains essentially the same. He is armed with an assault cannon and a unique weapon, a single Lightning Claw, which was his favourite armament when truly alive." - page 68, Codex Space Wolves, 2nd Edition. Are we done yet? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Holy crap man. Even the previous quoted picture has Bjorn labeled as a Wolf Guard. Was Bjorn equipped with a wolf claw as a Blood Claw? Was he equipped with a wolf claw at the loss of his arm? When he was truly alive? Was that when before he was interned or before he joined with Russ at his inception to the Grey Hunters? We have two instances of him armed with an axe in Prospero Burns, one with instance of him with a wolf claw at the Battle of Prospero, and one of him having used a wolf claw prior to his internment in a dreadnought. There are differing accounts of what Bjorn was equipped with before and during Prospero. There are differing accounts of how he lost his arm. While you will point to a Black Library account via Collected Visions, I will point to a Black Library account via Prospero Burns as diffeerence in opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Out of curiosity, which account did you read first? was it Dan Abnett's Prospero Burns or The Collected Visions: The Battle of Prospero? All of the... "ignorant this, purist that, and difference of opinions" reminds me allot about the whole Ragnar series. There we have Wolf Priest Ranek vs. Space Wolf Codex, known fluff with Wolf Priest Ulrik the Slayer. Now which is right and which is wrong? even authors make mistakes! do you go with what is written in the codex's or what is published in Black Library... BOTH each have their own inconsistencies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growler67 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Simply put, there is too much over thinking on this topic. Bjorn was Wolf Guard. That means that though his "favorite" weapon was a Wolf Claw, it wasn't ALWAYS what he used. He wasn't a WYSIWYG model afterall. He had the option to be armed at different time with different weapons. His "favorite" weapon being the Wolf Claw, that is what he was equipped with after he was encased in his sarcophogus. Like any Wolf Guard he can, and as written in different tomes at different times, he was equipped with what suited the mission at the time. If you are modeling him as a Dread, then a DCCW Claw would be correct. If you are modeling him at a different time in his life, pick the time and ask a question related to get the most appropriate option. Axe, Chainsword, Knife, Fist or stone would all depend on when you are asking about him. SERIOUSLY. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Bjorn was equipped as Kasper saw him at the beginning of the book and thereafter up until the Battle of Prospero where he lost his arm at which time his prosthetic was fitted. Bjorn could easily be said to have earned his place alongside Russ for his actions during the battle of Prospero as well as his elevation to Grey Hunter. Either case can be made that Russ gave him his surname for having a wolf claw or the circumstances leading to him having lost his arm during the Battle of Prospero. The easy compromise would be that is was a combination of both circumstances that led to his surname. I just feel like pointing out that Kasper Hawser's account is unreliable. As we know at the end of the book his very mind and memories have been altered by daemonic influence, how do we know that anything he says or does or that is from his perspective is true? We have no Space Wolf perspective to confirm Hawser's account, it could all be a total insane delusion. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case but the account is certainly not reliable. Compared to that I'll take the more historical account focused Collected Visions any day. But that's just me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2679631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Son of Russ Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Holy crap man. Even the previous quoted picture has Bjorn labeled as a Wolf Guard. Was Bjorn equipped with a wolf claw as a Blood Claw? Was he equipped with a wolf claw at the loss of his arm? When he was truly alive? Was that when before he was interned or before he joined with Russ at his inception to the Grey Hunters? We have two instances of him armed with an axe in Prospero Burns, one with instance of him with a wolf claw at the Battle of Prospero, and one of him having used a wolf claw prior to his internment in a dreadnought. There are differing accounts of what Bjorn was equipped with before and during Prospero. There are differing accounts of how he lost his arm. While you will point to a Black Library account via Collected Visions, I will point to a Black Library account via Prospero Burns as diffeerence in opinion. Man, calm down. You are really getting angry over this, just chill. If it makes you feel better he had a wolf claw on one arm and an axe held in the other. Sorted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2680001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Who would have expected the son of russ to be the voice of reason. Go figure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2680169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Don't get too hung up on weapon choices. He may have used both. Weapons are just tool to destroy the enemies of Russ and mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2680198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneSniperSG Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Well, each is going to choose what to follow and what not to. GRIMFOE WINS THE INTERNET This is our Space Wolves way. Why bother debating? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2680208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Well, each is going to choose what to follow and what not to. GRIMFOE WINS THE INTERNET LOL. Thanks. I've never won anything before. I'd like to thank the B&C for giving me the opportunity to post with you all. I'd like to thank the Mods for all of their support. I don't want to forget all of the great, talented members of the site. Particularly those in the SW sub forum. You're all really great and I appreciate your support. Of course, I couldn't have done any of this without the support of my beautiful wife of the past 14 years. Thank you, honey. And of course, I can't thank the fans enough. Wow, I'm a lot more nervous up here than I thought I would be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2681259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growler67 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 :) :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2681274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 :) :D Seconded. Quite clever! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2681299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Well, each is going to choose what to follow and what not to. GRIMFOE WINS THE INTERNET LOL. Thanks. I've never won anything before. I'd like to thank the B&C for giving me the opportunity to post with you all. I'd like to thank the Mods for all of their support. I don't want to forget all of the great, talented members of the site. Particularly those in the SW sub forum. You're all really great and I appreciate your support. Of course, I couldn't have done any of this without the support of my beautiful wife of the past 14 years. Thank you, honey. And of course, I can't thank the fans enough. Wow, I'm a lot more nervous up here than I thought I would be. Does this mean a party at your store? Cause those after-parties are always awesome. HEY! We should invite Bjeorn! I know..... 3 of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224033-bjorn-the-fell-handed/#findComment-2681414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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