Blood Ravens new background Information ala Retribution

[Redbaron997]

*SPOILERS EVERYWHERE*

 

EDIT: We have spoiler tags for a reason.

 

 

 

 

 

So, assuming the Space Marine ending is the canon ending it seems the Blood Ravens melodramas is coming to a close at last. Kyrais is dead. Jonah is dead. Gabriel is Chapter Master. Diomidies is probably a Captain somewhere or maybe still in honor guard and the chapter is back at full strength after lingering at destruction for so long.

 

Interesting though since now we know that in Chaos Rising the canon traitor had to be either Thaddeus or Avitus, neither are mentioned any later and we know that it could not have been Martilus, Cyrus, or Tarkus.

 

I did find a Thunder hammer called (Hammer of the Nameless) that was the DOW 2 and Chaos Rising Force Commander's hammer, but all it said was that the hammer had been missing since Chaos Rising.

 

Overall I reckon I feel pretty good about it, at least now that one random qoute we have from Gabriel cited him as Chapter Master makes more sense. I wish the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens was still a Librarian, but oh well what can ya do, and besides most likely Gabriel is a latent psyker anyways.

 

 

 

My only beef, why would Khorne want a Librarian? More likely he would just kill him.....but whatever.

 

So far I have played through the SM and Orks and am about to start Chaos soon. Anyways what did yall who have completed it think of the Blood Ravens story and ending.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Kurgan the Lurker
When posting about spoilers please use the spoiler tags.

[Leonaides]

Interesting though since now we know that in Chaos Rising the canon traitor had to be either Thaddeus or Avitus, neither are mentioned any later and we know that it could not have been Martilus, Cyrus, or Tarkus.

And yet if you get through the campaign without any heretic points on your squads, Martellus is the Traitor. So no, we dont 'know' diddly squit.

[Valkyrion]

He means it couldn't possibly have been Martellus, Tarkus or Cyrus because they are all present in DOWR fighting the good fight, so we do know who it wasn't, thus narrowing it down to two.

[templargdt]

Interesting. The Space Marine campaign may well not be the official ending. I've heard that if you win one of the previous DOW games the Blood Ravens get a chapter planet, but in the next game you learn that the last campaign was a loss, so no Chapter Planet was recieved.

[Vash113]

Interesting. The Space Marine campaign may well not be the official ending. I've heard that if you win one of the previous DOW games the Blood Ravens get a chapter planet, but in the next game you learn that the last campaign was a loss, so no Chapter Planet was recieved.

 

I sincerely doubt that will be the case here, as mentioned the ending lines up perfectly with the material from the Index Astartes Article (something I figured would happen eventually ages ago) and the Dawn of War 2 Campaigns have all centered largely around the Blood Ravens. The Aurelia Sub-Sector is a major focus of Blood Ravens resources and recruiting worlds and the plot revolving around the Maledictum and Cyrene goes all the way back to the original Dawn of War. While elements from the other endings will probably be worked into any future expansions, as usually happens, it is still more likely than not that the Blood Ravens ending in this case will be the official one.

 

Also, as mentioned, we now know the official conclusion of Chaos Rising for the most part. Sergeant Aramus did not kill Diomedes but instead revealed to him the truth, but did kill Galan. Martellus, Cyrus, Tarkus and Jonah were not the traitors leaving only Avitus or Thaddeus either of which is possible though I'm leaning more towards Avitus in that one. We also finally have a conclusion for the initial storyline which made me very happy.

[templargdt]

+1 to Avitus, Thaddeus was too optimistic to turn to Chaos IMHO. Avitus was already stewing in his hatred.

[Espada Azul]

Tarkus mentions the inevitable traitor being 'called' by Kyras, which really brings to mind only Avitus. Remember, Thaddeus had entirely different reason for turning traitor (Ulkair whispering to him that he'll help speed Angelos' fleet to Typhon).

Edited March 7, 2011 by Espada Azul

[Validar]

alright, as we have stated fairly hard that this thread contains major spoilers, I think we can drop the blackness?

Either way: MAJOR spoilers beneath this, IF you have entered this thread without having played the game and will explode if the story is revealed too soon, do NOT read the following. Something from the BR omnibus aswell.

 

I have to get it out. I died a little inside. I have only played the SM part, but everything stuck me as terrible.

 

Playing Diomedes was a great idea, he was an awesome character. Introducing the old boys like Cyrus and that other guy was great aswell, really characterfull marines. From there the storyline begins and it runs downhill until it hits the bottom like a rock and start digging deeper.

 

I had gotten comfortable with the idea of Kyras being corrupted by a nurgle deamon. He was under severe pressure on the space hulk (being a powerful psyker and the target subtle deamonic manipulation) and in to some degree I could accept that you can turn to nurgle if severe sickness starts to plague you and your body begins to rot away with your mind. It wasn't good, by no means, but it was acceptable (after a while of consideration)...

 

Now, Khorne? What the...?? Kyras is a psyker and the leader of the psyker chapter out there and Khorne chooses to corrupt him? Why O why?

 

Then there is the manipulation. Tbh I was waiting for someone to drop their big black cape and say "haha, Tzeench was behind this all along" - seriously: Corruption, subtle manipulation (of diomedes) and corruption (of kyras), it tricks you to avoid a fight (when you have to fight the eldar council) and there is the BR's psyker theme and... Something else that could suggest Tzeench's interrest in them.

 

But no, Khorne strikes home, suddenly rampage and bloodlust runs thick in the chapter... Wait, what? The Ravens are warrior scholars, putting just as much effort into their archives and writings as they do in their fighting. Nothing screams Khorne less than a Space Marine writing in a book behind a desk - but apparantly Khorne thought they were just his things... Again, what?

 

And the final rant goes to Mr. Angelos. Seriously, Chapter Master? What happened to the Chief Libby + Chapter Master that was part of the BR fluff? Down the drain it goes. What about the fact that the Ravens maintain secret libraries only accesable by the Librarians? Well, that just isn't considered I guess.

And Gabriel. Good Gabriel proved somewhat in the first games (and ESPECIALLY in the omnibus) that he is a bloody heretic. He works with and takes advice from Eldar (Xenos) and I think we can agree that the last lines along those books aren't "pure in the eyes of the emperor". Alright, the man is either a heretic or very radical in his interpretation of the Imperial Creed, may be possible for a Captain, but a Chapter Master?

 

rantrantrant ;)

[Vash113]

I had gotten comfortable with the idea of Kyras being corrupted by a nurgle deamon. He was under severe pressure on the space hulk (being a powerful psyker and the target subtle deamonic manipulation) and in to some degree I could accept that you can turn to nurgle if severe sickness starts to plague you and your body begins to rot away with your mind. It wasn't good, by no means, but it was acceptable (after a while of consideration)...

 

Now, Khorne? What the...?? Kyras is a psyker and the leader of the psyker chapter out there and Khorne chooses to corrupt him? Why O why?

 

Then there is the manipulation. Tbh I was waiting for someone to drop their big black cape and say "haha, Tzeench was behind this all along" - seriously: Corruption, subtle manipulation (of diomedes) and corruption (of kyras), it tricks you to avoid a fight (when you have to fight the eldar council) and there is the BR's psyker theme and... Something else that could suggest Tzeench's interrest in them.

 

But no, Khorne strikes home, suddenly rampage and bloodlust runs thick in the chapter... Wait, what? The Ravens are warrior scholars, putting just as much effort into their archives and writings as they do in their fighting. Nothing screams Khorne less than a Space Marine writing in a book behind a desk - but apparantly Khorne thought they were just his things... Again, what?

 

True Khorne was a surprise but I just took it with some ironic humor. I mean what could be more of a trophy on Khorn's throne than the skulls of an entire Sub-Sector and the corruption of a Librarian heavy chapter right under the nose of Tzeentch? Makes sense to me.

 

And the final rant goes to Mr. Angelos. Seriously, Chapter Master? What happened to the Chief Libby + Chapter Master that was part of the BR fluff? Down the drain it goes. What about the fact that the Ravens maintain secret libraries only accesable by the Librarians? Well, that just isn't considered I guess.

And Gabriel. Good Gabriel proved somewhat in the first games (and ESPECIALLY in the omnibus) that he is a bloody heretic. He works with and takes advice from Eldar (Xenos) and I think we can agree that the last lines along those books aren't "pure in the eyes of the emperor". Alright, the man is either a heretic or very radical in his interpretation of the Imperial Creed, may be possible for a Captain, but a Chapter Master?

 

rantrantrant :)

 

Well actually the Blood Ravens material just states that it is common for the Chapter Master to also hold the duel rank of Chief Librarian but that is not required, secondly Gabriel Angelos was noted as the Chapter Master in the Blood Ravens Index Astartes ages ago, so the ending makes perfect sense and links back to material put in play fully seven years ago.

 

As for the Heretic thing, Astartes are notably independent minded and many Chapters do not follow the Imperial Creed, rather seeing the Emperor as their commander and liege lord but not a god. Thus Gabriel's mind set is far from unusual amongst the Astartes and it is also far from unheard of for Space Marines to fight alongside Eldar or other xenos when the need arises.

[Valkyrion]

People are getting too hung up on the Khorne and Psyker thing.

If a psyker wants to worship Khorne he will have to prove himself much more than a non psyker, which shows dedication and devotion.

The final scene has Kyras turn into a daemon - at the moment of transubstantiation Khorne took away the psychic powers? Kyras could have agreed to sacrifice his psychic powers to become a daemon prince in the service of the blood god?

Because of Khârn and the World Eaters we have this distorted view of the followers of Khorne as chain weilding maniacs. Look at the undivided legions like the Word Bearers and Black Legion - will khorne be whispering to them to kill all of their sorcerers?

 

For other examples, look how 'clean' the Purge are - they aren't all riddled with disease like the Death Guard. The Violators aren't as decadent as their slaanesh worship implies, not all tzeentch followers are sorcerers.

 

Khorne hates psykers, so having one devote himself to him and then strip his psychic powers away would probably taste very sweet. He hates psykers, but he hates Slaanesh more than Tzeentch.

 

Chaos is just one big grey area.

 

As for Angelos, don't the books have him down as some sort of psyker in waiting, or was that Thule?

[Validar]

As for the Heretic thing, Astartes are notably independent minded and many Chapters do not follow the Imperial Creed, rather seeing the Emperor as their commander and liege lord but not a god. Thus Gabriel's mind set is far from unusual amongst the Astartes and it is also far from unheard of for Space Marines to fight alongside Eldar or other xenos when the need arises.

 

with a straight face you're telling me that it is not unusual to work with aliens? I guess we just disagree then. In extreeme circumstances, I can see a SM commander fighting the same deamon as the eldar before he turns his blades on the eldar, instead of fighting both at the same time, but beond that is radical imo. I never mentioned that the marines revere the Emperor as a God, but I don't exactly think that is required to hate the (arguably) largest thread to humanity and the Imperium.

 

That Gabriel isn't a psyker isn't a problem in the fluff, it just takes away a cool and characterful thing that the Blood Ravens had before. And about "linking" the fluff together: Read the description in the Index Astartes article, Gabriel is described as a command er as Cyrene is purged, aside the tittle of the box, there is no link between the Relic fluff and the article. Look how the Ravens are described in the article and how far away that is from the Marines presented in the Dawn of War games. I don't think this brings the two any closer - if anything, further away. Relic should have kept their hands from working with the chapter as a whole and kept their focus on individual companies.

 

 

And please notice that I'm not saying that it isn't realistic given the world. The WH40k universe is so open that anything is possible (as intented, I figure).

That the Captain (who commands just over 100 space marines) would go to war with less than a handful of marines could be considered rare, but not impossible.

That a farseer choose to screw the descisions of her craftworld and help an imperial regiment in their fight vs. whatever is rare, but not unheard of.

 

That Khorne wants to corrupt a Librarian, and a Librarian wants to join Khorne, is not impossible. Not even if he is the Cheif Librarian and Chapter Master of the "we like to write things down" chapter, which is very far away from Khorne. While it is possible that he just throws down the pen, his hundred-of-years service and dedication to the Chapter and his loyality to the Emperor to fetch skulls for the skull throne isn't exactly impossible. I mean, Khorne is a God.

But give me this: It is a one-in-hundreds-of-billions story.

[captaincandle]

Validar, I can certainly see your point, and I was tempted to side with you...

 

But unfortunately, I can recall too many stories that fit a similar theme to the odity that DoW follows. I can certainly see Khorne converting a psyker chapter master. Imagine the bragging rites! OK, not a particularly realistic view but Khorne is commonly displayed as a god who only cares for slaughter, but also commonly goes for really big prizes like the first war of Armageddon. So a Psyker follower (complete stab at both Tzeentch and Nurgle their, nurgle because I'm sure he was trying originally to corrupt Kyras) and the blood of an entire subsector? thats right up Khorne's alley.

 

Following that thought pattern, think of all the stories that involve rarities happening based on the event? Hell, by Imperial standards, the Crimson Fists shouldn't exist and should have been dissolved in a glorious stand against the Orks. Even then, the High Lords ordered their chapter to be dissolved and it wasn't until Pedro basically put his foot down and argued with them that he got the chance to re-build.

 

Think about Mephiston and the completely left-field moments he has had in his history! He throttles a greater Deamon of Khorne for Emperors sake!

 

Lysander? thousands of years in the warp and no affect on his mind?

 

Battle-fleet Gothic stories where entire Imperial fleets fight side-by-side with eldar against Abaddon... That really shouldn't have happened but the situation dictated it. I'm sure they went back to killing each other later, but at the time? hell no, kill those chaos scum first, THEN stomp the eldar once we've recovered.

 

To conclude, I guess what i'm trying to say is there are plenty of examples where Imperial men (and women!) have sided with alien races. some of them make sense, as above, some of them are retarded (cue BA and necron love calls...) but they exist. Many people regularly take whats written down as exact creed and the majority of Imperial citizens follow it as such, but spacer marines, although being psycho-conditioned, still THINK like a human, still have doubts and concerns, and still have a personalized method of thought. If you applied the same theories to the modern world, how many examples can you think of where rules don't even closely reflect the actual reactions of the populace. The 40K world is a lot stricter with punishment, so the events are much rarer, but they still happen. It's sometimes hard to seperate the fluff and realise there are still human thought patterns underneath.

[Reaper297]

First off, I had to say I liked how the space marine campaign ended. In my opinion it was a very fitting end for this chapter of the Blood Ravens story.

 

It was great to see characters like Cyrus, Tarkus, Jonah, and Martellus return. A shame they didn't really give any information on what happened to Thaddeus, Thule, or the Force Commander.

 

I admit it did take me some time to take a liking to Diomedes, but as the story progressed he slowly became one of my favorite characters.

 

And the final rant goes to Mr. Angelos. Seriously, Chapter Master? What happened to the Chief Libby + Chapter Master that was part of the BR fluff? Down the drain it goes. What about the fact that the Ravens maintain secret libraries only accesable by the Librarians? Well, that just isn't considered I guess.

 

While in most cases I would agree with you about the whole Chief Librarian and Chapter Master issue, Vash does have a point. Being Chief Librarian is not a must, it just follows more along the lines of Blood Raven tradition. As for Gabriel not being psychic, throughout the dawn of war novels he occasionally hears the Astronimican which improved his skills within battle. Now from what I've read from the lexicanum they state that "Navigators, as well as other psykers, can sense the Astronomican." So if this is true then that would mean that Gabriel does in one way or another possess some latent psychic abilities. Finally in my own opinion I cannot think of anyone better to serve as Chapter Master. Gabriel unlike many other Blood Raven captains was always willing to take chances. Captain Ulantus from the 9th knows this all too well and has stood against many of Gabriels' decisions. Yet each time Gabriel was correct and even though his methods are rather unorthodox you have to admit that he does get results.

 

Also, as mentioned, we now know the official conclusion of Chaos Rising for the most part. Sergeant Aramus did not kill Diomedes but instead revealed to him the truth, but did kill Galan. Martellus, Cyrus, Tarkus and Jonah were not the traitors leaving only Avitus or Thaddeus either of which is possible though I'm leaning more towards Avitus in that one. We also finally have a conclusion for the initial storyline which made me very happy.

 

I would like to point out here that when the Ancient unveils himself to be Tarkus, he says that he killed the traitor. During this he mentions that the traitor served during the Kronus Campaign. Now Thaddeus did not serve during the campaign. Now if I remember correctly Tarkus, Davian Thule, and Avitus were the only ones to serve during the Kronus campaign. Now seeing as Tarkus is still alive, and Thule could not be corrupted during the Chaos Rising campaign, this only leaves us with Avitus. And as I've read numerous times the corruption story for Avitus also matches up to Tarkus' story so it has to be him.

 

And Gabriel. Good Gabriel proved somewhat in the first games (and ESPECIALLY in the omnibus) that he is a bloody heretic. He works with and takes advice from Eldar (Xenos) and I think we can agree that the last lines along those books aren't "pure in the eyes of the emperor". Alright, the man is either a heretic or very radical in his interpretation of the Imperial Creed, may be possible for a Captain, but a Chapter Master?

 

As far as I have read Gabriel does in fact distrust most aliens much like many other space marines. During several events though his hate for the Eldar does lessen. Now I may not remember correctly but throughout the books the Eldar ask Gabriel specifically for his help.(Seeing as they view him as a beacon of hope for the Eldar in human form. Harlequins also nicknamed him 'Gabriel of the Hidden Heart' for saving them from Ahriman and his merry band of Thousand Sons.) Now during the Tarturas campaign, he did team up with the Biel-Tan but it was done to combat a greater foe. Of course that all goes downhill when Gabriel decides to take a whack at the Maledictum with his hammer. During the events on Rahe I believe Gabriel becomes hateful towards the Eldar(What with the death of several Blood Ravens and the wounding of one of his close friends.) Yet still he works with them and also during this time he was accompanied by a group of celestians and a woman.(Forgot her name. She was there on recommendation by Isador that Gabriel had been leaning towards heresy.) I don't recall them having any issues with fighting alongside the Eldar either. Yet again it was to combat an much larger threat.

 

Also on Rahe they find an old Blood Raven sanctuary that they determined was built alongside the Eldar. So overall it looks like the chapter has a history of working with the Eldar.

[Adarul Greystalker]

Regarding the problem that some people have with Angelos being Chapter Master but not Chief Librarian, I felt that that was cleared up by his speech in the end about the new Blood Ravens being a chapter that honors the Emperor instead of being wrapped up in enigma. It seems obvious to me that they've changed their ways at least to some extent, although they obviously will still have tendencies dictated by their gene-stock.

 

Tarkus's speech when he unmasks actually makes me think that the traitor that he was referring to was the force commander from the previous games. That's just my impression though.

[Validar]

first of all I would like to urge people to remember that I am well aware that it is NOT REQUIRED for a Blood Raven Chapter, I know that. I just think the fact that the dual role of chapter master and Chief Librarian was AWESOME and made SENSE to a chapter like the Blood Ravens. Which means removing that sucks.

 

Now that you mention Ulantus, I would like to state clearly that I am 100% on his side. In my oppinion his arguments are valid, the ones a true Space Marines should represent. That Gabriel turns out to be "right" is irrelevant to the point (and, in my oppinion, just a consquence of a bad author), in my world a real space marine argues just like Ulantus did.

 

And concluding that BR have a history of working with Eldar from the material you present is not reliable and a bit far out in my oppinion <_<

[Reaper297]

first of all I would like to urge people to remember that I am well aware that it is NOT REQUIRED for a Blood Raven Chapter, I know that. I just think the fact that the dual role of chapter master and Chief Librarian was AWESOME and made SENSE to a chapter like the Blood Ravens. Which means removing that sucks.

 

Well who knows, maybe Gabriel might end up further developing his own psychic powers and become a full psyker at some point. Then again it may have been done on purpose out of sheer paranoia of another Kyras moment happening.

 

Now that you mention Ulantus, I would like to state clearly that I am 100% on his side. In my oppinion his arguments are valid, the ones a true Space Marines should represent. That Gabriel turns out to be "right" is irrelevant to the point (and, in my oppinion, just a consquence of a bad author), in my world a real space marine argues just like Ulantus did.

 

I all honesty I couldn't agree with you more about Ulantus. His arguments were highly valid, and there is no doubt that most others in his position would've said the same thing. I see it like this. Ulantus throughout the novels plays as the voice of reason, who would rather do things by the book which in most cases is completely fine. Then you have Gabriel who uses methods that put him and others in danger, but usually ends up getting the same or better results faster than the by the book way. Now doing things by the book is naturally the standard method, but there are going to be situations where the by the book method just isn't going to cut it.

 

And concluding that BR have a history of working with Eldar from the material you present is not reliable and a bit far out in my oppinion

 

I admit it's not completely reliable, but I honestly don't think it's something that can be ignored. I mean, who knows? Most of the chapter's history is unknown. Considering Rahe was a tomb world however, I could see the possibility of the two working together to make sure the necrons stayed asleep for a long time.

[Vash113]

Now that you mention Ulantus, I would like to state clearly that I am 100% on his side. In my oppinion his arguments are valid, the ones a true Space Marines should represent. That Gabriel turns out to be "right" is irrelevant to the point (and, in my oppinion, just a consquence of a bad author), in my world a real space marine argues just like Ulantus did.

 

And concluding that BR have a history of working with Eldar from the material you present is not reliable and a bit far out in my oppinion :mellow:

 

There's no need to go slandering the author for an altogether extremely common plot device in GW material. Lets not forget that the Crimson Fists have a story about fighting alongside Eldar in the 5th Edition Codex, the Blood Angels have a story fighting alongside the Necrons in their latest Codex and the Space Wolves have a story about a disastrous but at least attempted parlay with the Eldar after concluding a successful campaign alongside them. Those are just the most recent examples, there have been plenty of others over the years in both Codex and Black Library material. The Ultramarines and Imperial Guard even fight alongside the Eldar a little during the Winter Assault expansion. It's not that uncommon a trend and while Angelos had a surprising frequency of contacts with the Eldar in such a short period don't forget these situations almost always ended with a lot of dead Eldar.

[Marshal Brellak]

Tarkus's speech when he unmasks actually makes me think that the traitor that he was referring to was the force commander from the previous games. That's just my impression though.

 

THAT is exactly what I got out of the conversation when he speaks.

 

Also, regarding Thule in the first mission of the Chaos campaign Eliphas kills him. Perhaps they planned on mixing certain events throughout the different campaigns to be canon.

[Espada Azul]

THAT is exactly what I got out of the conversation when he speaks.

 

I thought of this as well, but THEN I got the 'Nameless' Thunder Hammer relic, and it clearly states that the Force Commander was one of those called Renegade by Kyras.

 

Evidence point to

Avitus being the traitor

, as it's the only one that really matches up with what Tarkus said.

 

As for what might be considered the canon ending, I think it's going to be a combination of the Imperial Guard and Blood Ravens campaigns, with a bit of the Eldar campaign thrown in (though it bugs me that it's Alaitoc this time around, instead of the expected Biel Tian).

Edited March 25, 2011 by Espada Azul