Stern and Vanguards together

[mister_wolf]

I'm building towards a more competitive 2k list and I feel like this list is very strong on paper but I'm wondering if running both stern's and the vanguard will be too much of a points sink. This is the list as I have it now.

 

HQ 255pts

 

Captain /w power fist, storm shield and artificer armour (155)

Chaplain (100)

 

Troops 875pts

10 man Tac Squad /w power fist, flamer, ML and Rhino (230)

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w power fist, meltagun, MM and Rhino (235)

 

Elites 230pts

 

7 man Sternguard Squad /w 2 melta guns, 3 combi-meltas

and Rhino (230)

 

Fast Attack 290pts

 

8 man Vanguard Squad /w power fist, 2 power weapons,

2 storm shields and Rhino (290)

Heavy Support 345pts

 

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

 

Basic plan will be:

- the 4 Tac Rhino's to be the front line and block LOS on the two Vet Rhino's and the Vindi's coming behind as the entire army takes control of the midfield.

- Vanguard will run with both the captain and the chaplain and operate as counter-assault units using the tac's as bait.

- Sternguard are there on LR duty and to open up transports so the vindi's can do their work.

- I'm thinking of combat squadding 1, 2 or all 3 of the ML Tac squads to act as home base campers and also act as an unmolested firebase as I expect the rhino's and Vindi's to be more high priority targets for enemy fire

 

Any glaring weaknesses in this list that I'm missing or suggestions on how to run it?

[DarkGuard]

I think in this list they could work well together. You've got lots of Rhinos and Vindicators, so you've got the target saturation. Furthermore, Vanguard are either no expected or expected to not do much, but a couple of power weapons and a power fist will put a dent into units, while a couple of storm shields will keep them alive. One note, I think the Vanguard would do better with lightning claws instead of power weapons. Same points, but you trade one attack for re-rolls on all rolls to wound. Well worth it IMO.

 

As an aside, I'm strongly of the belief that you have too many Tactical squads here. The triple Vindicators work well, the Sternguard being some much needed melta, while the Vanguard can be nasty if used correctly (which I'm sure you will). However, you're missing out on long-ranged firepower and perhaps fast melta by taking so many Tactical squads. 3 is really the maximum, even at 2000pts, otherwise you don't have the killing power. Also, power fists on Tactical squads aren't too good, and neither are they good on Captains. Tactical squads just aren't meant to be in assault, and power fists won't help them alot. Captains benefit from I5, you lose this when taking a power fist.

 

So I would propose some changes, take them if you wish, if you don't want to don't worry. Switch the power fist on the Captain for a relic blade. You're still wounding basic infantry on 2+, which is all you need. Put one of the other power fists onto the Sternguard, they'll need it more if you're busting tanks, and remove the other all together, along with it's Tactical squad. We'll assume the three squads left are flamer/ML in Rhinos. I'd switch those missile launchers to multi-meltas, gives you lot of board control, especially alongside those Vindicators. However, perhaps two flamer/MM and one meltagun/missile launcher or plasma cannon. Gives you another melta weapon that can fire on the move, and a long ranged weapon you can combat squad if you roll up 5 objectives.

 

So if you we go with the second option, we have 220pts left. Now, if you can free up 30pts anywhere, that's two rifleman Dreads, which will be enough long-ranged anti-transport. If you can't then two Typhoons will have to do, and that gives you more points for upgrades or more Vets.

 

I'd also suggest a Librarian over the Chaplain. If you're trying to be competitive at 2000pts you really need some psychic support. At the moment you have two combat characters, you only need one, the Captain. The Librarian brings his hood, and his flexibility in powers. My favourites are Null Zone for countering enemy elite units and Avenger for augmenting the firepower of a squad, normally a Sternguard squad.

 

And even if you take a Tactical squad (or two) out for more support, you've got enough saturation to use Sternguard and Vanguard efficiently as long as you get them in the right place. And the best thing is that as you're using them in Rhinos with sensible upgrade choices you haven't spent many points on them, 460pts between them in fact. That's less then 5 Hammernators in an LRR with extra armour and MM, which is very, very good :).

 

Best of luck.

[Destaro]

For the cost you're investing in the Vanguard though, I think an Honor Guard/Command Squad might fulfill the same role more effectively. Also, in my opinion, you're paying for Heroic Intervention when you take Vanguard. I think putting Jump Packs on them and having them Deep Strike near a locator beacon is the way to go. Otherwise, a Command Squad or Honor Guard just seem more viable. Here are two list ideas to throw around:

 

List 1

 

HQ 100pts

 

 

Librarian w/Null Zone and Avenger (100)

 

Troops 630pts

 

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w combi-melta, meltagun, MM and Rhino (220)

 

Elites 545pts

 

7 man Sternguard Squad /w 2 melta guns, 5 combi-meltas, and Rhino (245)

 

Dreadnought w/MM, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon (150)

 

Dreadnought w/MM, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon (150)

 

 

Fast Attack 380pts

 

8 man Vanguard Squad /w power fist, 2 power weapons,

2 storm shields, Jump Packs, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon (380)

 

Heavy Support 345pts

 

Vindicator

Vindicator

Vindicator

 

Or, List 2

 

HQ 100pts

 

Librarian w/ Null Zone and Avenger (100)

 

Troops 660pts

 

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, LC and Rhino (220)

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, LC and Rhino (220)

10 man Tac Squad /w combi-melta, meltagun, MM and Rhino (220)

 

Elites 265pts

 

7 man Sternguard Squad /w 2 melta guns, 4 combi-meltas, PF

and Rhino (265)

 

 

Fast Attack 630pts

 

8 man Vanguard Squad /w power fist, 2 power weapons,

2 storm shields, Jump Packs, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon (380)

 

Land Speeder w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher x2 (180)

 

Land Speeder w/ HF, MM (70)

 

Heavy Support 345pts

 

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

 

 

As for the overall list, I agree with most of what was previously stated. Powerfists should be reserved for CC troops or Tactical/Sternguard sergeants who are going to be close to the enemy. The Captain has an Initiative of 5 and so Relic Blade, Lightning Claws, or a power weapon are his preferred close combat weapons. Long ranged fire support is lacking but I wasn't going to completely change your list to address this. Three Tactical Squads should be enough in 2K, so I would agree that pulling one of yours is where you're going to find most of the points you need. Also, as you can see above, the Librarian fits best with what you're trying to accomplish.

 

If you really want to field Vanguard in a Rhino however, I would suggest taking Khan and running him with them. That way they have Furious Charge to really maximize their effectiveness.

[thade]

I have a couple of suggestions for this list.

 

- Give the Captain a Relic Blade instead of a Power Fist. It's easy to get Str 8 Init 1 all over the place (every sergeant in my marine army - except the Dev squad sergeants - carry PFs) but very hard to get Str 6 Init higher-than-four.

- Don't give the Vanguard Vets power swords; instead give them single lighting claws. Statistically they're strictly better than power weapons...and they look cooler. :P

- Don't give straight-up melta guns to Sternguard: give them combi-meltas if anything. The real strength of Sternguard comes in their anti-infantry/anti-MC ability. Get down with their specialized ammo.

- Your anti LR are your Vindicators, man. Str 10 Ordinance is very nice against heavy armor...and one of the few reliable ways you have as vanilla marines to crack things like Monoliths. And you have THREE of them. Don't get me wrong, your combi-meltas are a very nice way to open up a LR so a Vindicator can vaporize the guys inside, but your Vindis have better range on their ability to do so.

- You have a LOT of rapid-fire (it's kind of nice) so don't sweat it if your Vindicators shoot at armor instead of infantry.

 

This looks like a fun list. Enjoy!

[thade]

For the cost you're investing in the Vanguard though, I think an Honor Guard/Command Squad might fulfill the same role more effectively. Also, in my opinion, you're paying for Heroic Intervention when you take Vanguard. I think putting Jump Packs on them and having them Deep Strike near a locator beacon is the way to go. Otherwise, a Command Squad or Honor Guard just seem more viable.

 

Vanguard Vets offer durability in a way that Honour Guard cannot...as they can wield Storm Shields. You have the right number of Storm Shields, too. As for Heroic Intervention, do NOT use it as a Vanilla Marine. It's a sure-fire way to get your Vanguard killed early after their deployment...and in all likelihood they'll get killed before they get into combat (average scatter is 7" and assault range is 6"...you feeling lucky?). HI becomes far more viable with Blood Angels.

 

I've done a great deal of damage with my Vanguard in the past; I very much like them. More often than not I put them in a Land Raider so they can charge the turn they get close enough, but they can just as easily hide in a Rhino behind the Rhino wall and counter-charge at need. They'll pack a nice counter-charge punch to free up your gun line when the enemy closes.

[mister_wolf]

Thanks for the C&C guys. Taking what everyone's said on board I've made the following changes to the list

 

- Dropped the AA from the Captain (3++ is enough) and swapped his Power fist for a Relic Blade

- Swapped the chappy out for a libby with Null Zone and MotA. I went for MotA because I think with just the Captains Relic Blade and Sgt's Power Fist the Vanguard unit could be pretty vulnerable to being tar-pitted by dreads, especially without the to hit re-rolls from the chappy

- Dropped one of the FL/ML Tac Squads

- Dropped the power fists from both Tac Squads

- With the points saved there added 3 HF/MM Land Speeders

- Boosted the Sternguard Squad with an extra vet, 2 extra combi's and a Power Fist for the Sgt

- Swapped the Vanguard PW's for LC's

 

So now we have...

 

HQ 245pts

 

Captain /w Relic Blade and storm shield (145)

Librarian /w Null Zone and MotA (100)

 

Troops 620pts

 

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w meltagun, MM and Rhino (210)

 

Elites 290pts

8 man Sternguard Squad /w power fist, 4 combi-meltas, 2 combi-plasma

and Rhino (290)

 

Fast Attack 500pts

 

8 man Vanguard Squad /w power fist, 2 lightning claws,

2 storm shields and Rhino (290)

 

2 x Land Speeder /w HF and MM (140)

1 x Land Speeder /w HF and MM (70)

Heavy Support 345pts

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

 

I did consider adding dreads but I think they'd lag too far behind on foot and I don't like the idea of them being picked off as they DP in at 140pts each minimum. I do worry that the Vanguards lose quite a bit of punch without the chappy's re-rolls but with 2 IC's with them I guess they'll be alright. I think my initial battleplan will need overhauling as well, as with the first list it relied on the 4 tac squads soaking up most of the enemy pressure while the Vet's and Vindi's did the dirty work, will that still work as well with the 3 tac squads? Bearing in mind that I'll need some to survive to be scoring units in 2/3 of games.

[DarkGuard]

For the cost you're investing in the Vanguard though, I think an Honor Guard/Command Squad might fulfill the same role more effectively. Also, in my opinion, you're paying for Heroic Intervention when you take Vanguard. I think putting Jump Packs on them and having them Deep Strike near a locator beacon is the way to go. Otherwise, a Command Squad or Honor Guard just seem more viable.

 

Vanguard Vets offer durability in a way that Honour Guard cannot...as they can wield Storm Shields. You have the right number of Storm Shields, too. As for Heroic Intervention, do NOT use it as a Vanilla Marine. It's a sure-fire way to get your Vanguard killed early after their deployment...and in all likelihood they'll get killed before they get into combat (average scatter is 7" and assault range is 6"...you feeling lucky?). HI becomes far more viable with Blood Angels.

 

I've done a great deal of damage with my Vanguard in the past; I very much like them. More often than not I put them in a Land Raider so they can charge the turn they get close enough, but they can just as easily hide in a Rhino behind the Rhino wall and counter-charge at need. They'll pack a nice counter-charge punch to free up your gun line when the enemy closes.

 

This. It's why I didn't call him up on Vanguard earlier. True you've got Honour Guard with their power weapons or Hammernators with their incredible save, but this Vanguard squad is cheap and still nasty. Extra men to take wounds, storm shields for the plasma wounds etc, and then a couple of lightning claws and a power fist gives them some good combat power. Add the Captain into that squad, it should have no problem cutting through anything except the hardest enemy.

 

Also, when it comes to Vanguard Thade is the man, the Vanguard in my Space Marine 101 are heavily influenced by his ideas. Of course I'd like to try them as well at some point, maybe for my own 2000pts, I'll have a think about this...

[mister_wolf]

I think my initial battleplan will need overhauling as well, as with the first list it relied on the 4 tac squads soaking up most of the enemy pressure while the Vet's and Vindi's did the dirty work, will that still work as well with the 3 tac squads? Bearing in mind that I'll need some to survive to be scoring units in 2/3 of games.

 

Actually, thinking about this if the enemy are concentrating on my tac squads then they're giving free rein to the Vets and Vindi's which is playing into my hands really.

[DarkGuard]

I think my initial battleplan will need overhauling as well, as with the first list it relied on the 4 tac squads soaking up most of the enemy pressure while the Vet's and Vindi's did the dirty work, will that still work as well with the 3 tac squads? Bearing in mind that I'll need some to survive to be scoring units in 2/3 of games.

 

Actually, thinking about this if the enemy are concentrating on my tac squads then they're giving free rein to the Vets and Vindi's which is playing into my hands really.

 

Personally, I think your underestimating the survivability of 10 man Tactical squads in Rhinos, while overestimating their killing potential. In 1500pts I only use two 10 man Tactical squads in Rhinos, and am never found wanting. This then lets me take more killy things, which takes the pressure off of them. If you're squads are in your Rhinos, your opponent can't hurt them, simple.

 

Therefore, I like your second list better. You've got some fast melta in there which is good, but you're still hurting at long-range anti-tank. That would have been my priority, but to each their own, different playstyles I guess.

 

The only thing I'd do is take one combi-melta and both combi-plasmas off of the Sternguard. You don't need combi-plasmas, hellfires do the job against MCs and Terminators through weight of wounds, while vengeance rounds will knock out Marines, and combi-meltas deal with vehicles. I think you'll find 3 combi-meltas should suffice in taking out a tank, but 4 or 5 isn't bad. I only mention taking one out because now you have 15pts that you can spend on artificer armour for your Captain, and thereby make him much more survivable.

 

Personally I prefer Avenger over MotA on the Libby, but again, if you're planning on using him combat it's not a bad choice. I just think that an auto, multi-hitting template that wounds Marines easily, goes through their armour and doesn't give cover saves is very very good.

[thade]

Heh, I wouldn't have dropped the PFs from the tactical squads, but that's just me. The Hidden Powerfist is a remarkably solid deterrent for many ICs in the game who would otherwise charge in without question: without the PF in that unit, odds are high most ICs will mulch the unit in two to three rounds of combat. With the PF, you can threaten to insta-gib them; that alone can let you corral them.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

If your tactical squad is in CC with a powerful enemy IC for more than one round you're doing it wrong. That's what counterassault and combat tactics is for.

 

I like the list. Personally, I'd take a TH or relic blade instead of a fist with the VV sgt. A few more points for messing with tank crews and stunning CC opponents, or for attacking at initiative and still easily piling on wounds (and instakilling light infantry)

 

If you really want to have fun, put a chaplain and khan (on foot) with the vanguards. Hit and run, furious charge, reroll to hit on the charge... tasty.

[mister_wolf]

If your tactical squad is in CC with a powerful enemy IC for more than one round you're doing it wrong. That's what counterassault and combat tactics is for.

 

I like the list. Personally, I'd take a TH or relic blade instead of a fist with the VV sgt. A few more points for messing with tank crews and stunning CC opponents, or for attacking at initiative and still easily piling on wounds (and instakilling light infantry)

 

If you really want to have fun, put a chaplain and khan (on foot) with the vanguards. Hit and run, furious charge, reroll to hit on the charge... tasty.

 

I actually had this exact same list with Khan and Chappy with the VV's but I don't want to trade combat tactics for outflank. Combat tactics is just too good. So maybe drop the 2 combi-plasmas on the sternguard and upgrade the power fist to a thunderhammer on the vanguard?

[DarkGuard]

If your tactical squad is in CC with a powerful enemy IC for more than one round you're doing it wrong. That's what counterassault and combat tactics is for.

 

I like the list. Personally, I'd take a TH or relic blade instead of a fist with the VV sgt. A few more points for messing with tank crews and stunning CC opponents, or for attacking at initiative and still easily piling on wounds (and instakilling light infantry)

 

If you really want to have fun, put a chaplain and khan (on foot) with the vanguards. Hit and run, furious charge, reroll to hit on the charge... tasty.

 

I actually had this exact same list with Khan and Chappy with the VV's but I don't want to trade combat tactics for outflank. Combat tactics is just too good. So maybe drop the 2 combi-plasmas on the sternguard and upgrade the power fist to a thunderhammer on the vanguard?

 

That'll probably be fine, but the difference between a thunder hammer and a power fist is minimal. It's handy, but not needed. I'd recommend the arty armour all the way if you're prepared to drop a combi-melta as well, much more survivability on your close combat character will help a lot, especially when those attacks come back. It'll help a lot more than an upgrade from power fist to thunder hammer anyway.

[mister_wolf]

Right then, taking everything on board this is the final list I think

 

HQ 270pts

 

Captain /w Relic Blade, Artificer Armour and storm shield (170)

Librarian /w Null Zone and MotA (100)

 

Troops 615pts

 

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w flamer, ML and Rhino (205)

10 man Tac Squad /w meltagun, MM and Rhino (205)

 

Elites 290pts

 

8 man Sternguard Squad /w power fist, 3 combi-meltas, and Rhino (275)

Fast Attack 500pts

 

8 man Vanguard Squad /w power fist, 2 lightning claws, 2 storm shields and Rhino (290)

2 x Land Speeder /w HF and MM (140)

 

1 x Land Speeder /w HF and MM (70)

 

Heavy Support 345pts

 

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

Vindicator (115)

 

So from the C&C so far I'm guessing that the only glaring weakness in the list is long range firepower? Considering the mobility of the list I don't think that it will be a major problem as the whole army is designed to act as a unit together holding the midfield and putting out damage in a 24" radius from the centre of the table. Cheers for all the help the list definitely looks a lot stronger now, plenty of vehicles for me to paint up now! Any more thoughts on my (basic) strategy for the army? Obviously different opponents and different situations etc will call for different tactics but I feel the list is pretty flexible.

[DarkGuard]

I definitely think the list looks stronger, and if you play your way, dominating midfield then you should pull through. My only concern is that against armies like Eldar and Dark Eldar they will outpace and make it hard for you to get a good shot off at them, and you won't have the speed to keep up. In those situations then some long range firepower is perfect.

 

Likewise, midfield is an area that Imperial Guard and Tau are unlikely to go to, so you'll have to find a way to get across with little suppression ability. All other armies you should do fine against, just so long as everything sticks together and supports each other.

[mister_wolf]

Yeah long-range firepower could still be an issue but my local metagame is very power-armour focused so it should do pretty well. With Tau/Guard/Eldar/Dark Eldar what would you say about combat squadding the 3 tac squads so that the ML's can sit back and lay down some krak missiles? Maybe go so far as to drop the AA on the captain against such armies and upgrade the 3 Tac squad Rhino's to R'backs as well?

[DarkGuard]

The big thing is that single missile launchers will not do so well. You need to roll to hit, pen, perhaps they have their cover save for moving fast, being obscured, or their invulnerable save, and then roll once on the vehicle damage table. You want at least 3 shot in my experience to be certain of doing some damage, which would explain why Rifleman Dreads and combi-preds are so popular, and why IMO Typhoons work best in pairs rather than solo.

 

Don't get me wrong, combat squadding could work, but in kill point missions your handing your opponent a lot of kill points. I know that before the new Codex (and before I changed my list a bit), I couldn't beat the local area Dark Eldar player. Too many vehicles to deal with, with single shot weapons sometimes not having the desired result. That changed when I put two Rifleman Dreads in my list, and despite it being only a 1000pt game those two Dreads helped a lot in taking his Raiders down, quickly taking each down with overwhelming firepower.

 

The same can be said of Rhinos etc, where I can expect at least a couple of rolls on the vehicle damage table per turn because of weight of fire.

 

I'm not saying you need the long-ranged firepower of this sort, by the sounds of it you should be fine if you mainly face MEQ, but against all enemies a couple of dedicated firebase units like Rifleman and Typhoons can do the world of good.

[thade]

This wasn't the point of this thread (at least at first) but it's been on my mind, so perhaps it's time to mention it.

 

I don't give my tactical squads heavy weapons. Every squad has a purpose in mind when I build the list and I build each squad to fit their purpose. Tac squads need to be mobile; tac squads need to have some surviving models at game's end to score; tac squads are a whole lotta rapid fire. If you're giving a tactical squad a heavy weapon, you're usually thinking:

- opportunistic anti-armor shot

- if the unit hasn't moved, it has a shot of maiming an infantry model that the unit fires at

- it's "free"!

 

First of all, it's not free. It's the cost of a marine. It's the cost of several marines, actually, since the tactical squad needs to be ten-marines-strong for you to get the free ML/whatever. It's also a *single* shot, requiring you to fire your entire tactical squad at a Rhino or whatever in the hopes that you pop it with that single shot. All of those bolter rounds could instead have been used to mulch the guys inside with rapid fire, ie what they're good at. A single shot is not worth a loss in mobility or squandering all of that fire power.

 

My tactical squads are now typically 8-man; those other points have been shifted to specialized units, like dev squads with 4xMLs - which I combat squad - or rifleman dreads, tanks, etc. Heavy weapons teams open up the transports and keep enemy heads down; tactical squads do what they are truly best at: the drive by. Rhino rolls up, they poor out, 16+ shots of rapid-fire; next turn back in the Rhino, rinse, repeat.

 

While you might think leaving that tactical squad in a Rhino way in the back of the table where the single ML can fire out of the hatch is a good idea, consider how many points you have sitting there doing nothing other than holding an objective and taking pot shots. Now reduce that to a smaller unit and redistribute the points to other more expendable, specialized units. That's what I've been doing lately; I kind of like it.

 

As for Eldar armies out-pacing you, that's just going to happen. Marine effective range is 24". Eldar armies are far more mobile (fast skimmer transports, Fleet); you can't beat them at their own game. If your units are separated, the savvy Eldar player will divide and conquer you, pitting their super-specialized units against your units in an optimal way: it's how Eldar win. For you to deal with such an army, be the porcupine. If you're close together, they HAVE to contend with everything you've got; they can't just whittle you down piecemeal (which is what they want).

[DarkGuard]

thade, I understand what you mean by saying that the heavy weapon isn't free, but in some ways it really is. For example, you don't just need 10 men for heavy weapons, you also need them for special weapons. Weapons like flamers really expand and improve the Tactical squads threat profile, while meltaguns and plasma guns allow them to turn their hand to targets they wouldn't do so well against normally. So when you've got those 10 guys for your special, you've then got the option of a heavy weapons, three of which are free. If, for example, you've chosen the flamer and a multi-melta (my preferred set up), you've got two free options, or rather, as you look at it, you've split the cost evenly. If you've only grabbed the flamer then all those points go towards the flamer, making it stupidly expensive.

 

In the end the question is what do you want your Tactical squad to do? Rapid response, long-ranged support, midfield bunker? My Tacticals are normally holding midfield with flamers and multi-meltas, I let my Sternguard whiz around doing all the unloading and shooting stuff.

 

I do understand what you're saying, but IMO the true killing power of a Tactical squad comes from its specials, including combis on the Sergeants, while the heavy weapon adds diversity for the cost of one bolt shot, well worth it IMO. There seems to be this idea that a heavy weapon slows you down. It doesn't unless you choose to fire it. It adds diversity for the cost of nothing normally, something that is well worth it. When your squad that takes that far flung objective what will it do with their boltguns? In this instance the free heavy lets them contribute to the game as well.

 

As for objectives, it's only the capture and control missions that sees my lone Tactical squad sitting back, all men sitting in the Rhino, but I know that I've secured that objective, and the my opponent will find it hard to shift them. In multi objective games, seize ground, I will tend to deploy most objectives in the open near the middle of the board, so my Rhinos advance onto them and are then controlling the midfield, while my opponent has to come through them to get them.

 

I just feel that if your going for the special, which IMO you should be doing, you might as well pick up a free heavy as well. It forces you to do nothing, but gives you more options and all at the cost of a single bolt shot which isn't that impressive anyway.

[Panda_]

Any chance to move this list discussion into the Space Marine lists subforum ?

 

But back to the point "Stern and Vanguards together" :

- Yes, both are usable together and we see this in several BA lists

- Yes, both have usually the same role (killing Elites) but their differences can be useful

 

- If only you can have enough points...

[Wildfire]

Edited: Sorry, misunderstood the question. That's what I get for simply answering the title without reading the thread.