Lysander + shrike + 10 infiltrating assault termies

[Meatman]

Yes, this is doable. People may come to hate you for it- first turn assaults by TH+SS TDA is never appreciated- but you can do it.

 

 

Rule for infiltrating:

- You infiltrate MORE then 18" away in LOS

- MORE then 12" away if completely out of sight or into a BUILDING (not cover, as is the misconception)

 

 

6" move, 1-6" fleet, 6" assault, is maximum 18. You have to be more then 18", so no first turn charge there.

Getting 10 models with 40mm bases, plus Shrike completely out of LOS is a massive challenge, let alone just over 12" away from their lines. Jump infantry cannot embark into a building.

 

And that's assuming your opponent doesn't have infiltrators of their own to block you first.

Go over to the sons of corax forum, and look at how many of the Raven Guard players use this kind of list. I'll save you the trouble, none.

 

Why? Because it doesn't work. 590 points spent on putting terminators in front of all your opponents big guns. They don't even have to divert attention from your other units on the table that much. There will be plenty of missiles spare to kill your transports, while the rest of their army will be able to rapid fire you to death, or just move away.

Sure people will say the survivability of the terminators will hold up, but even if they survive the first shooting phase, terminators are slow, and even if you can catch units, it's still only one unit a turn, unless your opponent is silly enough to let you get the double charge.

 

 

So really, this will only work against inexperienced, new players who wont know what to do about them. And you'll pull this trick on them. Nice.

 

 

Not saying that you're an inexperienced player, but making sure you 100% know the rules for infiltrating when Shrike is in the army always helps. Sometimes people don't actually read the rules 100%, so make sure you do to stop cheating (accidental or otherwise). Byrne, we need a chat :D

 

 

GC08, remember, BA don't have thunderfires :P

[Morticon]

Go over to the sons of corax forum, and look at how many of the Raven Guard players use this kind of list. I'll save you the trouble, none.

 

Why? Because it doesn't work. 590 points spent on putting terminators in front of all your opponents big guns. They don't even have to divert attention from your other units on the table that much. There will be plenty of missiles spare to kill your transports, while the rest of their army will be able to rapid fire you to death, or just move away.

Sure people will say the survivability of the terminators will hold up, but even if they survive the first shooting phase, terminators are slow, and even if you can catch units, it's still only one unit a turn, unless your opponent is silly enough to let you get the double charge.

 

 

So really, this will only work against inexperienced, new players who wont know what to do about them. And you'll pull this trick on them. Nice.

 

 

A Shrike/Assault Term list placed top 10 in the last National tournament we had down here in SA.

I think writing off a squad of walking/running death like that is silly.

 

Irrespective of first turn charges, in standard 1500, 1650 or 1750 games how are you going to adequately stop all those 2+/3++ wounds?

Without some very, very good playing? Even then, ability aside, if your list isnt kitted to fight something like that, you're game over.

 

 

Bolter fire?!

Do you know what the odds are of causing one wound on a termy with bolter fire is?

 

About a 6% chance.

 

What else?

Plasma guns? About an 18% chance there.

 

 

Really will depend on the players at hand and what else is in that army. The player down here had 2x10man squads of assault terms, a termy libby with Gate and scout bikes with tele homers...so maybe my view is just distorted cause I saw it kick so much butt.

[Meatman]

A Shrike/Assault Term list placed top 10 in the last National tournament we had down here in SA.

I think writing off a squad of walking/running death like that is silly.

 

Irrespective of first turn charges, in standard 1500, 1650 or 1750 games how are you going to adequately stop all those 2+/3++ wounds?

Without some very, very good playing? Even then, ability aside, if your list isnt kitted to fight something like that, you're game over.

 

 

Bolter fire?!

Do you know what the odds are of causing one wound on a termy with bolter fire is?

 

About a 6% chance.

 

What else?

Plasma guns? About an 18% chance there.

 

 

Really will depend on the players at hand and what else is in that army. The player down here had 2x10man squads of assault terms, a termy libby with Gate and scout bikes with tele homers...so maybe my view is just distorted cause I saw it kick so much butt.

 

Game over automatically if you cannot take out 10 terminators? Remind me to always bring them if I'm going to play you then ;)

 

Do BA players not have meltaguns or lascannons? with that many termies and no vehicles in that list, you can turn the heavier weapons on them with no real penalty to you. Don't forget that Shrike is the only one striking at above I5 in the squad, like others have suggested, sticking a dread base to base with him to tear him apart will help big time.

 

The major weakness of TH+SS termies is hordes, and rolling those armour saves rather then the invul. You can bring them down with weight of fire much easier then trying to take them out with AP1 or 2 weapons.

6% chance with a bolter? 18% chance with a plasma? Chances are that you have much more then 3x as many bolters then plasma guns. So ironically more termies will fall to bolters then plasma. Do you also not have furious charge on squads? S5 helps make him roll that many more saves.

 

I don't see why people think TH+SS termies are the ultimate unbeatable squad. They may well be the most cost effective combat monsters in C:SM, but they are no match for a well balanced army.

 

I frequently take down terminator squads with regular tactical and assault marine squads. I1 on the hammers means I will throw multiple squads at them to cause so many wounds the other player will roll ones. Each one rolled means 2 less thunderhammer strikes back. Termies cannot sweeping advance either, so you wont take extra wounds from losing combat if you run. The main threat in that squad is Shrike, due to the higher initiative and number of attacks. Neutralise him and you will have a much easier time.

 

Furious charge and any inferno pistols you have will also help alot. Or just avoid them! Your rhinos move at 18", so you can keep outside of the charge range easily. Even if they catch you, its 6s to hit you in combat, and only models in base to hull contact can swing, and due to the size of the terminator bases your rhinos will survive.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

Just did some quick maths about what I would do to take out this squad, no units bought specially, I include these in my usual lists.

 

Assuming I have a tact squad, a dread, and an assault squad within 12" after the other player has done his first turn.

Load out of the squads:

 

10 man tactical squad, combi-melta, meltagun, multi-melta, rhino - 220

10 man assault squad, power weapon - 205

Dread, assault cannon and DCCW with storm bolter - 115

 

' indicates recurring numbers.

Shooting

10 man tact squad, melta, combi-melta, pistols will kill 0.'814'

10 man assault squad, power weapon, pistols kills 0.5'

Dread assault cannon + storm bolter kills 0.4'259'

 

Total so far: 1.7'962'

 

Combat

 

Block Shrike with a dread

Dread chance to kill Shrike: 0.625 (62.5%)

 

21 tactical marine attacks kills 0.875

4 power weapon plus 27 normal attacks kills 1.4583'

 

Running total of dead termies:

 

4.127, plus 62.5% chance of Shrike dying.

 

Strikes back:

Assuming only 4 died, and Shrike died.

 

12 Strikes, half hit, 5 kills. Assume he kills the assault marines as they have more attacks.

 

The tactical marines, assault squad and dread WIN combat by 2.

 

Total cost of Shrike plus termies = 590 points

Total cost of other squads (assume transport for tacts was a rhino) = 540

 

So you win combat by 2, with less points spent. Hasn't even diverted that much long range firepower to take out other parts of his army. And that is vanilla marines. No special HQ boosts or buffs from other units.

[Morticon]

An exaggeration sure- but I still maintain that if youre not kitted to take a unit like that youre in for a helluva tough game. The fact theres a thread here from the OP is case in point.

 

Too much of the above example relies on loads of things going your way.

Personally, I dont know of many (non-new) players who will allow a multiple assault with 3 different units, including singling out their IC with a dread.

 

As for the example, we can theory hammer all we like but, i've seen how it works- and works well.

No combination is unbeatable but, certain combos require a lot more forethought and a lot more planning than others.

My point here is that this isn't a "laugh it off" unit that can easily be dealt with.

[greatcrusade08]

My point here is that this isn't a "laugh it off" unit that can easily be dealt with.

 

there is a point to that, killing ten termies and two Scs isnt easy, however assuming your opponent cant deal with this unit is going to lose you games (not you per se, you get my point)

ten scout bikes for example often kill 5 termies with TL bolters and GL frag grenades.. granted its normally a reaction to Dsing so they are clumped up..

but massed fire always brings termies down.. i use two t-fires and both of those can kill a few termies a turn too.

 

the only real way to make this unit work would be to make a list that captialises on this strategy, stuff that can also get alpha strikes and distract the enemy so they cant fire on them..

however if you dont get first turn that list would be blown out of the water.

 

im all for people bringing unique lists to the table, but infiltrating close to the enemy with no chance of getting first turn assaults is plain silly IMO

[Dezartfox]

I've been playing shrike/termi list for well over a year now. It's not impossible to beat but it's quite hard.

 

Best way is to make them roll as many dice as you can. Mass firepower/combat attacks will stop the unit.

 

VERY few armies have the ability to stop 10 termies that infiltrate in turn 1. They can happily take 2 turns of shooting too.

 

I actually only run shrike and 8 TH/SS termies, and they're enough of a headache for anyone.

[Byrne]

To OP, yes, sure I would love to have another go at the next tourney... might be playing my wolves then again though. BUt I always want to try to beat a good Blood angel ;)

 

To the others:

ofcourse its never impossible to beat a 10 AT unit, the question is, DO you have the right army during a tourny to do it? BA with all their goodies have an excellent chanse to do it, but sometimes we dont bring "mathhammer" to the table we need an army that can win agains most armies, not just a shrike+termie army. This I belive is the major problem, if you DON`T know you will meet an army like that it will present a bigger problem then if you can opt your army.

 

Honestly for the first time playing a "plain" space marine army from that codex, there was not much that scared me as a player... sure DE and their vehicles felt like doom, but facing other 3+ armies, non felt like a "problem". and there was another 5 terminators following suit, and Lysander.

 

But then again, I think it is fun that "regular" SM can put this challange up for all others... Mephiston or a SW Lord on a Thunderwolf felt like something I could deal with.

 

As many already have said, I also belive it comes down to taking armor saves, a lot of them if you are to beat them. I did have some crazy rolls, a 5 man tactical unit shot their bolters and 3 terminators died, then a plasmacannon fired and I happily took it on the "SS" and another 3 terminators died...

 

its all about luck, theoryhammer in a tourny dosent really fit. This is a hard unit, can you beat it sure... objectives and overall game is the key.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

Deploy some tac squads or other squads in cover, and reserve as much else as you can. This denies him the first turn charge. He cannot use the area terrain for LOS blocking to set up within 12" if you're occupying all the terrain in your deployment zone.

 

Furthermore, he's now 18" away. Move 6", run D6". Now it's your turn to shoot and he's within rapid fire range. He's at best 6" away. So now he wants to get into CC... well, he's moving into area terrain, so has to roll D6". Unless he rolls high, he's still not going to be into the terrain. He gets his run roll... if he gets a bad roll, he is going to need to roll for difficult terrain to assault too. This might buy you a second turn of rapid fire shooting, or a charge if you prefer. I've had a 6-man assault crew and 2 characters cut down in 2 turns of low S shooting while trying to get into HtH through cover... you'd be surprised how often those 1's show up when you're counting on them not to.

 

If you've done it right, you'll also bring up or deepstrike some jumpy troops on the other side of whatever terrain he decides to charge into. Forget the dangerous terrain rolls, you jump to exactly 1" away from him and charge. Repeat this as necessary to keep his unit in area terrain while you roll around in the open and dominate the rest of the table.

[Meatman]

I wasn't using theory hammer, I was demonstrating how units that I take in nearly every match can be used to take out this particular trick, without using expensive uber combat squads.

 

A tactical squad, assault squad, and a dread is not out of place in an all comers list, or a competitive one, and combined they can take down this 590 point monster of a unit. I took these very units to the Call of kthulu tourny hosted by GC08 (well, the tact squads had fist, combi-flamer, flamer missile launcher).

 

The maths wasn't the entirety of my point, it was merely to back it up with proof. I did an A level unit on statistics, I'm allowed to use mathhammer to support my points :lol:

 

 

The OP wanted to know how we would deal with the unit. I demonstrated that it can be rather easily done with 50 less points and average rolls, with average units we all have access to, and in all likelihood take on a regular basis. No list tailoring was necessary.

[Morticon]

I wasn't using theory hammer, I was demonstrating how units that I take in nearly every match can be used to take out this particular trick, without using expensive uber combat squads.

No need to be defensive mate. Your demonstration is in a theoretical set of circumstances- therefore "theoryhammer".

Were you perhaps confusing theory hammer for mathhammer?

I made no mention of "math hammer" or whether you"re allowed or not allowed to use it to support your points. (If you look above I used it to support mine too).

 

That aside, it doesnt make your suggestion any less beneficial as a potential tactic - in fact its great.

What I do disagree with, however, is that when faced with an equally skilled opponent, one is able to "take it on a regular basis".

 

If it was why didn't the OP win? And why did a similar list place in the top percentile here?

 

 

Don't miss out where i'm agreeing with you - its on more points than you seem to think.

In ideal situations you don't need specific list tailoring to help - i'll agree to that.

 

Also, your tactical advice is solid -no question.

Your relegating of a formidable unit to "easily beaten by another combination of equal value" status, though, is flawed - simply because situations are not ideal.

 

If ive missed the point, and thats not what you're were saying and you were merely saying thats an option along with many others, then all good :lol: agreed 100%.

 

Hope thats at least clearer from my side so it doesnt sound like im disagreeing with everything you have to say. :D

[The Crimson Cartel]

I've been playing shrike/termi list for well over a year now. It's not impossible to beat but it's quite hard.

 

Best way is to make them roll as many dice as you can. Mass firepower/combat attacks will stop the unit.

 

VERY few armies have the ability to stop 10 termies that infiltrate in turn 1. They can happily take 2 turns of shooting too.

 

I actually only run shrike and 8 TH/SS termies, and they're enough of a headache for anyone.

 

 

I agree totally. In fact I run the same thing, Shrike and 8. In fact, Mr. Morticon helped me write the list. :wallbash: (Which by the way, haas been doing rather well.)