Codex Complaints

[dragonknight4275]

I'm pretty sure all these have been said billions of times before, but here are some of my peeves with the new (well not really) Blood Angels codex.

 

#1: Dante's axe! I mean seriously, a master-crafted power weapon? Is that ALL Games Workshop can give us with a thousand-year old, oldest-Space-Marine-in-existence Chapter Master? The rules and such are great, but the axe? At least make it a S6 weapon! Look at Azrael, Grand Master of the Dark Angels. He's got a master-crafted power sword that gives him S6 too! Both! Both! And the Dark Angels codex is old old old! Doh....*facepalm*

 

#2: The glaive encarmines. Really? Again? Master-crafted and two-handed is all that a weapon unique (I say again, UNIQUE) to the Blood Angels can give? Screw the master-crafted, I would think a two-handed weapon would garner some kind of Strength bonus, no? Of course not. And so, our poor old fabulous-looking Sanguinary Guard are stuck with a crappy S4 weapon that doesn't even give them an extra attack. Downright crappy I say. Oh well, at least they're power weapons....Which has to remind me of Space Wolves frost weapons!

 

#3: And last and most definitely least....The Sanguinor. Stupid. Really! Ok sure, WS8, S5 (6 on the charge) plus all the blessing, +1 attack rules. For 275 points? FAIL! For 25 points less, you can get Mephiston, Strength AND Toughness 6, force weapon, plasma pistol, and 3 PSYCHIC POWERS PER TURN! Or, for 50 points less, you get approximately half more of your units with the Red Thirst with Astorath the Grim. Who of course, has a S6 power weapon! All right, I'll admit the 3+ Invuln. Save is hard to break, but just zap him with a Pred Annihilator with all those yummy scrummy lascannons and a few of those Bloodstrike missiles from a Stormraven, and in about two turns.....voila! Poor dead Sanguinor.

 

You see now? Not all in a new codex is that great. Besides, that was rather fun, so I can't wait till the Grey Knights codex comes out in April so I can do it again!

 

And as normal, tell me what you think, if you agree or don't agree, in a comment below! Thanks!

[Morollan]

#1: Dante's axe! I mean seriously, a master-crafted power weapon? Is that ALL Games Workshop can give us with a thousand-year old, oldest-Space-Marine-in-existence Chapter Master? The rules and such are great, but the axe? At least make it a S6 weapon! Look at Azrael, Grand Master of the Dark Angels. He's got a master-crafted power sword that gives him S6 too! Both! Both! And the Dark Angels codex is old old old! Doh....*facepalm*

 

I've said before that Dante has amazing rules for what he brings to an army but IMO, combat is not one of them! For the oldest living Space Marine and a veteran of 1000+ years of combat I struggle to find any other SC that he could go toe-to-toe with and come out on top.

 

#2: The glaive encarmines. Really? Again? Master-crafted and two-handed is all that a weapon unique (I say again, UNIQUE) to the Blood Angels can give? Screw the master-crafted, I would think a two-handed weapon would garner some kind of Strength bonus, no? Of course not. And so, our poor old fabulous-looking Sanguinary Guard are stuck with a crappy S4 weapon that doesn't even give them an extra attack. Downright crappy I say. Oh well, at least they're power weapons....Which has to remind me of Space Wolves frost weapons!

 

IMO, these should have been relic blades. If that means they cost more then so be it.

 

#3: And last and most definitely least....The Sanguinor. Retarded. Really! Ok sure, WS8, S5 (6 on the charge) plus all the blessing, +1 attack rules. For 275 points? FAIL! For 25 points less, you can get Mephiston, Strength AND Toughness 6, force weapon, plasma pistol, and 3 PSYCHIC POWERS PER TURN! Or, for 50 points less, you get approximately half more of your units with the Red Thirst with Astorath the Grim. Who of course, has a S6 power weapon! All right, I'll admit the 3+ Invuln. Save is hard to break, but just zap him with a Pred Annihilator with all those yummy scrummy lascannons and a few of those Bloodstrike missiles from a Stormraven, and in about two turns.....voila! Poor dead Sanguinor.

 

Disagree here. Yes, Mephiston is a beast but no invulnerable and no EW makes him far more squishy than the Sanguinor.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

#1: Dante's axe! I mean seriously, a master-crafted power weapon? Is that ALL Games Workshop can give us with a thousand-year old, oldest-Space-Marine-in-existence Chapter Master?

 

Maybe he is so old he cant pick up anything heavier?

 

#2: The glaive encarmines. Really? Again? Master-crafted and two-handed is all that a weapon unique (I say again, UNIQUE) to the Blood Angels can give?

 

So your solution to a unique weapon not being unique enough is just to replicate frost weapons/relic blades? :D

 

All right, I'll admit the 3+ Invuln. Save is hard to break, but just zap him with a Pred Annihilator with all those yummy scrummy lascannons and a few of those Bloodstrike missiles from a Stormraven, and in about two turns.....voila! Poor dead Sanguinor.

 

So Sanguinor sucks because if you blast him with lots of lascannons he dies...Have you ever tried to blast Mephiston with the same weapons? Doesnt end well. Sanguinor balances out his higher cost with more abilities. A super sargeant, and buffing everyone in a radius for example. Being more survivable for another and of course benefits against an enemy HQ. Best of all none of his abilities can backfire and start hurting him.

[Brother_Mike]

Not enough crying is going on here. Really, you're not crying hard enough.

[Kanis]

I agree with these last few responses, and I also don't think the Blood Angels need to be anymore powerful than they need to be. I like playing a space marine army that doesn't have a million S5+ power weapons everywhere to steam roll something; instead, we Angels must be tactical, and think of how to win, instead of having units do it for us, *cough-Space Wolves-cough* 9.9

 

I haven't used Dante, so I cannot say much on his behave, but I have a friend who uses him in an all Sanguinary Guard army, and he does for some nasty pin-point attacks on weak areas of armies.

 

I find it's not so much the Glaive's, but the unit themselves here. They seem out of place with other Elite choices, and the Honour Guard were already the golden, smite-unit. XD While they have wings, and 2+ armor, they're hard to use, unless as an army or placed perfectly, even then, with only 3 attacks on charging and priest support, it's a big points sink that can't fight against a lot, or for too long. That being said, I still think they're great looking, though a shame they didn't seem _that_ thought out. I think.

 

The Sangiunor is not a sledge hammer, he is a scalpel. He supports the army he is with, lending his power where it's needed. He empowers a sergeant, grants more attacks to those around him, and is one of the toughest characters I've ever seen; however, that doesn't mean he can go fight Abaddon or a line of Lascannons. I like having diverse, non-uber stat units. I think we Angels got very lucky having a good range of tactical, to insanely powerful characters, like Mephiston; but, we need to use them properly. Even the mighty Lord of Death can succumb to sheer weight of attacks. And the example you listed applies to ANY unit, if you hit it with that much fire-power it will die, regardless what/who it is, so that doesn't help. Dante and Sanguinor only have S4 power weapons, but when supported by other units, or supporting other units, can be of great tactical use. Being in the right place at the right time is usually all that's needed.

 

I believe, in the end, it comes down to tactics and using what you've got, not relying on having the most ridiculous stats in the game, to come out on top. Blood Angels are artisans and warriors, not savages or butchers. I feel if you want over-whelming power, join the Wolves, or turn to Chaos! >D

[Deschenus Maximus]

Agreed on all counts.

 

I don't know how you guys come off with Sangui being more survivable. A T4, 3 wound model that can be picked out is bait for massed bolter fire. Don't waste your precious lascannons shots when every single standard infantry weapon will eventually bring him down.

 

Yes, Meph doesn't have EW or an invuln, but that is easily remedied by putting him in the middle of an assault squad so he gets a 4+ cover save and avoiding ID weapons (which really aren't that common). For everything else, his 5 wounds and T6 will see him being far harder to kill than Sang.

[Ander00]

It still takes 54 Bolter shots on average to take down the Sanguinor and...

Dante and Sanguinor only have S4 power weapons

...he actually has S5, as well as Furious Charge. I have not used a special character ever, but the Sanguinor is tempting, because he isn't a beatstick like Mephiston but does more for the army, just like Dante.

 

 

cheers

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Not enough crying is going on here. Really, you're not crying hard enough.

 

 

lol ...some people will just never be happy.

[Larkyn]

Might I also suggest adding Death Company Tycho to this list?

 

Useless unless you just want a fire magnet.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

The argument here is based on the perception that fluff & army rules should match with 100% accuracy. A rule is merely a game mechanic that hopefully also helps embody some aspect in the fluff. For those of you who recall the rules for “Movie Marines” the whole concept was based on having some fun around how SM rules would look if they really were Willis, Stallone, Owen, Schwarzenegger & a bag a chips all rolled into one. Still, fun rules to play if you have a copy but not what makes for a good army codex.

 

The concept of game balance aside, fluff can never fulfill ALL of our wide ranged imaginings. Dante’s axe should be able cleave Blood Thirsters in half after being dulled by smashing through a tank column of chaos land raiders. There you go: “Master Crafted” lets see a garden variety fire axe do that.

 

The concept of game balance included and it’s even more of an issue. Mephy w/o an ++ save makes no sense fluff-wise whatsoever. Can’t he just take an Iron Halo from one of the a BA Capts? How about maybe even a storm shield or (gasp) even a combat shield? A simple requisition request sent down to the Armory and he should be good-to-go. Instead, he gets Artificer armor and BA Cpts. don’t; so there.

 

So don’t over think this stuff. The current incarnation of the BA’s is not superb but is pretty damn good. I don’t expect that we will see any kind of revision to include these changes so they’re hardly worth the discussion.

 

Be thankful BA are what they are and have fun with them.

 

-OMG

[Debauchery101]

i really dont see the merit of complaints here....

 

dante is more of a utility character than any type of super badass hth character. imo to take a mediocre character that can allow an really nasty jump squad not scatter and have hit n run is pretty nice. one set up is Dante leading a 6 man death company squad that includes lemartes, thunder hammer, power weapon, 3 plasma pistols. that set up tho costly is for sure every time going to kill something high value or key to your tactics. termies, transports, vehicle squads whatever its toast dude even if dante and the death company take some casualties its hardly likely youll be wiped unless the oponent doest nothing else to your army

 

for the glaive it would be nice to have a bonus to strength but you also get storm bolters and 2+ armor while being fearless. add a chaplain and have a priest around while they tote a Banner you have a powerful and tough unit that also boosts everyone around. i think its best for balance to be how they are

 

man i cant see why you think mephiston is better than sanguinor. you can make a sgt like an IC. mephiston has no invulerable save and not having the IC rule hes going to go down fast toughness 6 or not.

[JamesI]

I have to agree with OMG.

 

Some of the issues are game balance. Perhaps if Astorath hadn't come into existence, then Dante could get the 6 strength axe instead. But we don't need 2 ICs with built in relic blades.

 

Some are to help make some stuff unique (such as the Wolves frost axes). I'd love to see an improvement to Glaives, but I'm not sure what (I'd also like to see SG have WS 5 as they are supposed to be the best, move DC back to WS4).

 

Mephiston's lack of an invul is clearly game balance.

 

I haven't run the Sanguinor (or Mephiston) in the current codex. I think Sanguinor looks worth his points for all he provides, and the fact that Psychic defense can't shut him down.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

#1: Dante's axe! I mean seriously, a master-crafted power weapon? Is that ALL Games Workshop can give us with a thousand-year old, oldest-Space-Marine-in-existence Chapter Master?

 

Maybe he is so old he cant pick up anything heavier?

 

I know you're mocking him, but typically an axe is heavier than a sword.. Although I never got the Axe thing, I would have imagined sword-craft a more artful thing for the aesthetically adept Blood Angels.

[VAGABOND]

#1: Dante's axe! I mean seriously, a master-crafted power weapon? Is that ALL Games Workshop can give us with a thousand-year old, oldest-Space-Marine-in-existence Chapter Master? The rules and such are great, but the axe? At least make it a S6 weapon! Look at Azrael, Grand Master of the Dark Angels. He's got a master-crafted power sword that gives him S6 too! Both! Both! And the Dark Angels codex is old old old! Doh....*facepalm*

 

I've said before that Dante has amazing rules for what he brings to an army but IMO, combat is not one of them! For the oldest living Space Marine and a veteran of 1000+ years of combat I struggle to find any other SC that he could go toe-to-toe with and come out on top.*

 

Wouldn't hold your beath on that one, I've beaten both Khârn and Shrike in a single combat and they charged me.

[AngelofSorrow]

#1 Dante is an incredibly useful character. Deepstriking with no scatter is great. Also with the proliferation of furious charge in our dex he should be S5 most of the time. Also making sang guard troops can we say winning. (thanks Charlie sheen!)

May I point you to another chapter master with a mundane combat weapon: Pedro cantor, but the great things he does for his army.

 

#2. Sang guard are great as are their glaives. Having used them every time I play they have some of the best performances of any unit. That 1 reroll per guy has saved me many a time.

 

#3. 1st off the use of the word retarded, in a negative light, is completely inappropriate and incredibly offensive please remove it from your post. Back to the OT. Sanguinor is amazing even out of FNP range bolters are still hard pressed to kill him especially if played right using the terrain. This is another model I use in every game and he performs on the battlefield. 275pts is incredibly fair for what he does. Not only can he enhance the army but is amazing in combat. What is not to like.

[Deschenus Maximus]

man i cant see why you think mephiston is better than sanguinor. you can make a sgt like an IC.

 

I never understood why people have such a hardon for that rule. Ooh, one random sergeant gets to be marginaly better in CC. Big whoop. Assuming your sarge has a Fist (which he most likely will), you will kill on average one more MEQ than you would without the boost per round of combat. That's not exactly earth-shattering. If at least you could pick who gets the bonus, then it'd be much more useful.

 

mephiston has no invulerable save and not having the IC rule hes going to go down fast toughness 6 or not.

 

Sang doesn't have the IC rule either, and he has a worse toughness and only 3 wounds. Short of Mephy attracting every single lascannon shot you opponent can throw at him, the Sang WILL die faster. And that's assuming you don't do the very simple act of making sure Mephiston is being screened by an Assault Squad or something...

[VAGABOND]

1. Dante isn't a bad character at all, the only thing that lets him down is the lack of Eternal Warrior. When I first started my Sanguinary Guard army, I read over Dante's rules and how he can benefit my army and make it my best army.

 

2. The Sanguinary Guard weaponry is pretty good and fairly cheap when it comes to arming them with IP or PP. Their GE are fantastic and have me loads of combats. Yes they should have been S5 or maybe even +1 A but we always have our Sanguinary Priests to help us.

 

3. Sanguinor can take Mephiston, easily :blink:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well SG can take the banner for +1A so I think it all works out quite well. The Sanguinor is a staple unit in my DoA army... Never leave home without him. :blink:

 

G

[Debauchery101]

man i cant see why you think mephiston is better than sanguinor. you can make a sgt like an IC.

 

I never understood why people have such a hardon for that rule. Ooh, one random sergeant gets to be marginaly better in CC. Big whoop. Assuming your sarge has a Fist (which he most likely will), you will kill on average one more MEQ than you would without the boost per round of combat. That's not exactly earth-shattering. If at least you could pick who gets the bonus, then it'd be much more useful.

 

mephiston has no invulerable save and not having the IC rule hes going to go down fast toughness 6 or not.

 

Sang doesn't have the IC rule either, and he has a worse toughness and only 3 wounds. Short of Mephy attracting every single lascannon shot you opponent can throw at him, the Sang WILL die faster. And that's assuming you don't do the very simple act of making sure Mephiston is being screened by an Assault Squad or something...

 

 

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php

 

if you go here and pit both the sanguinor and then mephiston against 10 melta guns youll see who the real tough guy is

 

i know luck is a main factor in this game but this is pretty close to reality. remember las cannons and meltas kill tough 6 just as easy as tough 4

[evilbeetles]

I actually am just fine with the Sanguinor, glaives, Dante.

 

However if I were to complain I would say DC Tycho would be much cooler if he retained his IC status. Also I wish the captain had access to arificer armour and maybe a glaive.

 

Other than that I love my Blood Angels and love the fact that our codex is no longer a ghetto print out :blink:

[Brother Nathan]

such stupid complaints. of all the problems in the dex you pick those 3, how unimaginitive...

dante is the chapter master. think about it. if he was the chapter champion like the emperors champion etc i could see a point in him having better cc ability, but that aint what this dude is about(also he aint the oldest chapter master, and isnt even stated to be the oldest blood angel. hes the case in point for sons of sanguinius living longer than most others, especially those who arnt in the eye of terror etc...) i think hes damm well equiped as is and offeres some nice abilitys(nerfing an ic, pinpoint deepstrike, hit and run) never mind scoring sanguard... the synergy he offeres aint about him killing loads. plus with furious charge hes better than most. my only complaint is no eternal warrior, though i see why.

 

sanguard- again, -_- aint the best unit, but can be used with proper synergy. i prefer ours to the codex chapters hounor guard. relicblades nice but you would have ben paying near the 300 point range if they allowed for an extra attack. id prefer ws 5 as noted, and a slight points drop.

 

sang vs meph, both copete in very different ways. in a one on one fight the sang wins though... in a one on randon squad meph wins. in a combined with army attacking another squad the sang wins. also the boosting thing, well al my sarges either have a fist or powerweapon, with the boost ou either get a str 10 powerfist that hits easier and with more attacks(good for the likes of ork warbosss, or tanks) or when combined with a powerweapon you get an extra attack, at even higher initive, which hits easier too, and wounds easier and is futher booseted with furious charge. and that dude cant be singled out. that helps to make it harder to spread wounds inflicted by him so likely killing more and hurting more as a result. which sure can cause a fair bit more difference than the single attack you seem to think it does. never mind making him harder to kill with the extra ws and wound....

 

 

so yea you picked silly areas to complain about. go speak to tycho about it... and the fluff... and the front cover...

[Deschenus Maximus]

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php

 

if you go here and pit both the sanguinor and then mephiston against 10 melta guns youll see who the real tough guy is

 

i know luck is a main factor in this game but this is pretty close to reality. remember las cannons and meltas kill tough 6 just as easy as tough 4

 

Yeah, he'll die a shameful, shameful death in that situation, but what you're not taking into consideration here is:

1-Why the hell isn't he being screened by your other troops? With a 4+ cover, he will easily survive the encounter thanks to his 5 wounds.

2-If you're aiming 10 meltas at Meph, that's at minimum 3 squads (or a full Fire Dragon squad) not shooting at anything else.

 

A more useful comparison is how many bolter shots will it take to bring both characters down. Here Mephi is massively more survivable than Sangui.

[Deschenus Maximus]

a str 10 powerfist that hits easier

 

The +1 for FC is added after doubling for the fist, not before. So on the charge, it's S9, not S10.

[Brother Nathan]

the sang also gives +1 str to his victim... cant rember if its base modification or not... if not combined with furious charge its still str 10, 9 if not not sure...

[Deschenus Maximus]

Sang doesn't give +1 S. He gives +1 init, wounds, attacks and WS.