bushman101 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 So, I've been cranking through the Horus Heresy series and I have some questions. I don't think this thread will contain any spoilers, but reader beware. 1)Were pre-hersey Space Marines subject to psycho/chemical indoctrination? 2)What was is the duty of a Space Marine chaplain, pre-heresy? Were they simply advisors rather than preachers of their primarchs cult? 3)Several of the books mention that Space Marines are immortal. But the Blood Angel codex states that they are the longest lived of Space Marines. Does this mean the BA's tend to survive battles better, the author is taking artistic liberties or did something change? I think I had more. I'll post them later... Thanks in advance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
raven guard 1369 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 1. As far as I've read pre heresy becoming a marine was far quicker and less of the selection process. So I doubt they had as many aspirants die but they do need the psycho indoctrination to learn imperial gothic if they come from a planet that doesn't know it and to overall learn the history of the Imperium and the Emperors intent for the galaxy. Mixing it all into psycho indoctrination is just easier and faster. 2. Chaplains were created by the Word Bearers to spread the Imperial Cult as Dictated by Lorgar and I have no idea if they spread to other legions and what there purpose in those other legions would have been. 3. Debateable. During the Heresy none lived long enough to die of old age. Maybe after some did? I've never read of such an event... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2680755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 1) As far as can be ascertained, the procedure of becoming a marine was the same pre-heresy, just on a larger scale unrestricted by the thousand battle brother limit. 2)There were chaplains in some legions I believe but weren't the chaplains we know today. The first chaplains were of the Word Bearers and Malcador the Sigilite laid down the Chaplain Edict at Nikea if memory serves. "To watch over their brothers for signs of corruption" (in reference to psykers i believe) 3) The great crusade lasted a maximum of 250 years give or take, if we take the Ultramarines (most prolific gene-seed) as a base then we know 400-500 years is the average life span of their marines (Cassius being the oldest current ultra at ~400). It's simply that during the crusade, no true marines had been around long enough to die of old age. Even the long fangs of the space wolves were only just occurring during the end of the crusade. Hope this helps Paradill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2680766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4L Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 In the first book they mention several times that marines will not die to age. So 2 different sources claiming different things. Idk who trump who. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2680778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 3)Several of the books mention that Space Marines are immortal. But the Blood Angel codex states that they are the longest lived of Space Marines. Does this mean the BA's tend to survive battles better, the author is taking artistic liberties or did something change? In the first book they mention several times that marines will not die to age. So 2 different sources claiming different things. Idk who trump who. No, they dont. The precise quote elludes me right now, but I believe it to be something along the lines of "Some marines had speculated that they may be functionally immortal." Hint hint- those italics are the qualifiers, pay extreme attention to those bits please, and try not to get hung up about the final word like a large number of otherwise (i assume) intelligent people. Marines age. So they willl die. Their bodies are better at resisting the effects of ageing as a side-effect of the implants and changes made to them to allow them to survive the battlefield better, but they are by no means immortal. Every time someone says that marines are immortal, a kitten dies. So please, think of the kittens...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2680958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushman101 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Did other legions have Librarians, or where they just creations of the Thousand Sons? Loken speaks of them in 'Horus Rising', but as far as I've read, none are in the Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2683280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Did other legions have Librarians, or where they just creations of the Thousand Sons? Loken speaks of them in 'Horus Rising', but as far as I've read, none are in the Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus. The other Legions definitely had Librarians. The Dark Angels books do showcase a Librarian main character, the World Eaters kill their Librarians when they succumb to Khorne, the White Scars had their Stormseers and the Space Wolves had their Rune Priests (both essentially being Librarians under a different names, which makes the Space Wolves' actions and disregard of Nikaea appear all the more hypocritical). So at least four other Legions had some sort of a psychic warfare contingent, and quite possibly more Legions that we don't know very much about had Librarians or close equivalents, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2683290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
isilvra Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 1) Not to the extent of present day Astartes. A lot of sources suggests that modern day chapters have suffered from a degradation in gene seed and tend to be more mass produced than the first legions requiring an accelerated training program and forcing loyalty to the Imperium in the astartes minds. 2) Chaplains supervised the fighting spirit of the legions. No real religious link. 2) I think the theory of immortal Astartes has been debunked by the upcoming HH short story collection. If you have read bolter and chainsword you will know what I mean as it suggests that an Iron Warrior did die of old age. Of course how old that might be could be thousands of years... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2683390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyros Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 3) Well, during the crusade the geneseed was new. Over 10.000 years things tend to get a little bit worn, so it could be that over the millenia the seed has lost some of it's funktions and we only see the Blood Angels as the one's with "pure" geneseed (wich is kinda ironic when you think of the flaw and the rage). But the short answer is we and the marines of that time don't know. They have not been around for long enough to experience the kiss of time. My opinion is that the first genaration of pure marines would never die of age, but as above during the 10.000 years of constant war the organs have mutated somewhat and lost some of it's vitality. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Mortarion makes a point that the Death Guard do not have any Librarians in their legion. I would guess that the Blood Angels did as Sanguinius was one of the 3 Primarchs who set up the Librarian Orders, along with Magnus and the Khan. I would hazzard a guess that most legions ignored the ruling of Nikea a part from some say perhaps the Sons of Horus, the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. But who knows for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 3)Several of the books mention that Space Marines are immortal. But the Blood Angel codex states that they are the longest lived of Space Marines. Does this mean the BA's tend to survive battles better, the author is taking artistic liberties or did something change? Perhaps the authors are playing on the uncertainties of that era. Space Marines live for several hundred years, and only start to show signs of extreme aging at about 300 years, so throughout the Great Crusade (which only lasted about 200 years) there had not been an "old" Marine, and for casual observers it may indeed have looked as if Marines were immortal. However, the mortality of Marines is documented in the background of varous source books, such as the Blood Angels Codices since 2nd Edition, where the Marines with Sanguinius' genetic flaw are said to have a longer life span. There are a few sources that explain that a Marine will live for several hundred years, and the current Codex Space Wolves specifically points out that this means Marines who survive for that long in battle, and it is not merely an average life expectancy that takes into account an early unnatural death on the battlefield. There are also a few "old" Space Marines, such as the oldest Ultramarine at about 400 years of age, and the Chapter Master of the Space Wolves at 700 years, who is said to be quite the exception. Every Chapter has "non-combatant" staff of advanced age, so if Marines would get much older than this, then these would probably not be the oldest members of the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 3)Several of the books mention that Space Marines are immortal. But the Blood Angel codex states that they are the longest lived of Space Marines. Does this mean the BA's tend to survive battles better, the author is taking artistic liberties or did something change? THere is a possibility this is not something that was intended and instead is a mistake made my Matt Ward as he wrote the codex. And as i have seen debated many times their is a lot of questions raised about Matt Ward's fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 THere is a possibility this is not something that was intended and instead is a mistake made my Matt Ward as he wrote the codex. And as i have seen debated many times their is a lot of questions raised about Matt Ward's fluff. That is not Matt Wards fluff. That is old 2nd Edition fluff that has been repeated in the 4th Edition downloadable Codex Blood Angels pdf and now the 5th Edition Codex Blood Angels. It also matches the other sources explaining that Space Marines live for hundreds of years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 :o I stand corrected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 In relation to question 3; Until there is a definitive answer of either yes or no from a GW official source (BL, Codexes etc.) it is up for debate. There are several things we can ascertain though, these tend to point towards Space Marines being long lived but not immortal. - Longevity seems to be in direct relation to the origination of gene seed. We know, for instance, that Sanguinius' line allows it's marines to live roughly a thousand years in certain circumstances (Dante) where as 400-500 years old will be considered nigh on ancient by most other chapters, at least those of Ultramarine decent (Cassius). - The marines that conjecture on their (im)mortality during the crusade have not been around for too long, even the surviving Terran marines would be a maximum of 300 years old (at a push.) This doesn't give them a very good experience base compared to our 10,000 years of decline. -The Emperor is functionally Immortal as his birth was around 3,000 B.C. and his defeat at the hands of Horus was the 31st millennium A.D. but he was mortally wounded. There is no proof this functional immortality passed on to even the primarchs, let alone being diluted by human stock in the marines. The only Primarchs who definitely survived into the 41st millennium are the traitorous demon primarchs, there is no evidence that the loyalist primarchs who disappeared are currently alive. -The marines in the eye of terror haver experienced a scant few centuries in terms of perspective time due to the way the Eye of Terror works, the fact that abbadon is still around is due to the way time warps in the realm of chaos, not a testament to his immortality. Paradill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 In relation to question 3; Until there is a definitive answer of either yes or no from a GW official source (BL, Codexes etc.) it is up for debate. There are several things we can ascertain though, these tend to point towards Space Marines being long lived but not immortal. The only Primarchs who definitely survived into the 41st millennium are the traitorous demon primarchs, there is no evidence that the loyalist primarchs who disappeared are currently alive. Not to be too nit picky but technically the Lion is in a coma and Rowboat Girlyman is in stasis. Both qualify as alive imo as there is a hope for revival. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 In relation to question 3; Until there is a definitive answer of either yes or no from a GW official source (BL, Codexes etc.) it is up for debate. There are several things we can ascertain though, these tend to point towards Space Marines being long lived but not immortal. The only Primarchs who definitely survived into the 41st millennium are the traitorous demon primarchs, there is no evidence that the loyalist primarchs who disappeared are currently alive. Not to be too nit picky but technically the Lion is in a coma and Rowboat Girlyman is in stasis. Both qualify as alive imo as there is a hope for revival. Roboute is for all intents and purposes dead, and as he is removed from the time stream, I don't count him. As for the Lion, the sounds like fallen propaganda to me, Heretic. I've always wondered about johnson, he is at the centre of the rock, I give you that, but what state is he in? Is he in a coma? If so where does it state that (not refuting just asking) as all I have heard is that he is being looked after by the jawas (I.E. Could be in stasis field/pod) Paradill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 The final secret known only to a very select few is that, buried even deeper within the Rock than Luther, Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for the time when he will be needed again, to lead the Dark Angels in a new and greater crusade. The Emperor is one who also knows of this secret. - Codex Angels of Death 2nd Edition I lolled at your Jawa ref though Edit: I always read sleeping as a coma tbh.......it's not like he's gonna be roused by a cup of coffee (unless it's Horus' patented Heresy brand Coffee) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Nah, Johnson seems more of a tea man anyway. I think sleeping is a bit of an ambiguous term in this context, maybe something that isn't made to sound so poetic? (Though what would you expect with a Primarch named after a poet?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Actually the age thing becomes really messy with just Dante added in. But then there is Bjorn the Fell-handed the Space Wolf thats been alive since the heresy. true he is intured in a dreadnought but he is still alive. there are marines from the heresey from the traitor legionairs outside the eye of terror like Arhiman thats been aroud for a while. The most common opinion I've heard is that they tend to die in battle and not find out due to being shock troops especially in the 41st millenium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Actually the age thing becomes really messy with just Dante added in. Dante is an exception that proves the rule. The Blood Angels background explains that it is one of the peculiarities of their genetic flaw that Blood Angels have a vastly increased life span compared to other Marines, and can easily get a thousand years old. It then usually follows up by mentioning how Commander Dante has been leader of the Blood Angels for 1,100 years. But then there is Bjorn the Fell-handed the Space Wolf thats been alive since the heresy. true he is intured in a dreadnought but he is still alive. Dreadnoughts are held in stasis when not active, so they are usually disregarded for figuring out how old Marines can generally get. there are marines from the heresey from the traitor legionairs outside the eye of terror like Arhiman thats been aroud for a while. It would be new to me that Ahriman has generally been operating outside of the warp for the past 10,000 years. The warp has natural no time flow, so traitors are usually disregarded for purposes of possible Marine ages as well. The most common opinion I've heard is that they tend to die in battle and not find out due to being shock troops especially in the 41st millenium. The 4th Edition Codex Blood Angels pointed out that those Blood Angels that survived could potentially get a thousand years old. The 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves points out that those Marines that survive can live for hundreds of years. The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines points out that Chapters have staff personell of advanced age that take care of non-combat jobs. So the opinion that Marines usually die in battle at some point so we don't know how old they can potentially get would be wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224199-pre-heresey-questions/#findComment-2684654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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