Just wondering if I'm missing anything?

[Prot]

I am having real issues with Blood Angels above all others. Orks are always a real headache, they are simply underpointed for the common Ork, but I find I can deal with them on a good day.

 

IG is IG. The more points you give them, the more dangerous they become.

 

But lately I'm finding BA are the definitive 'I Win' button to my Wolves. I'm trying to figure out if there's a unit I'm missing, perhaps a tactic I'm not using, or just plain old bad luck? Or perhaps they are the 'I win' button to my Wolves.

 

Case and point; I just had a game at 1500. I felt my list was actually quite strong. I make some goofy lists once in a while, but this time I came holding no punches.

 

Basically my list was 3 RP's in 3 rhinos, with 3/4 squads of Grey hunters using the typical loadout... a mixture of Jaws, Hurricane, Lightning.

I had a fourth Grey Hunter squad in a Razorback with twin las for holding an objective.

 

My heavies were two vanilla squads of 4 ML's each and one Heavy bolter. Both squads ended up with a great view actually from the second floor of ruins.

 

My opponent typically plays all the money units... no brainers like 2 priests in 2 deep striking squads, a pod striking blender dread, a pod striking 10 man dual melta squad, and of course Mr. I win himself - Mephiston, and finally a flanking Baal with AP 3 flammage.

 

So it's pretty much the anti-me list here......

 

I found I could do literally nothing to the list. No time. We ended up playing annihilation and I knew he would be the aggressor which I'm fine with. His army man for man can rip me apart in hth.

 

The short version is I just simply couldn't do anything. He had a pod squad come in, and melta a dread, and about half the squad died, then got pinned in their own crater.

 

I had trouble dealing with that squad, but they were dealt with. Unfortunately things got worse.....the lack of 'time' I refer to is the podding, and the precision deep striking allowed by only deviating 1x D6. Precision deep striking leads to precision melta-ing. Rhino's disappeared.

 

He's right in my face on turn 2.... my Long Fangs have one turn of shooting, and I outright kill maybe 4 marines. Everything else has Feel No Pain. I try Jaws twice.... failed both.

 

Now Mephiston is running up the middle. I know I have nothing I can stop him with, short of tar pitting him with Grey Hunters. I can't wound him enough to make it worth shooting at him, so I ignore him to try to thin the on comers.....

 

He passes about 90% of his saves with feel no pain. The one squad I didn't try to Jaws is hurricane'd and he takes the risk and moves them full out anyway suffering no penalty.

 

The blender dread contacts my other HQ, and rips the squad in two, getting enough wounds to recycle attacks until everything is dead.

 

I try to intercept one of the deep striking squads in front of my Long Fangs, but again Feel No Pain saves everything that isn't saved the first time, and I'm wiped to a man.

 

The game lasted 3 turns and I called it on account of having only on rhino, and two long fang squads left on the table. His losses? About 10 marines, one pod, and 3 assault troops. Mephiston never even made in to my lines.

 

So originally I confess I was pretty disgusted. I felt I played tactically sound, but never at one moment in the game did I doubt this outcome. The dread is too strong, FnP is incredible, deep striking with accuracy gives me little time to react.... and Mephiston is the strongest model in the game.

 

How do you deal with this?

 

Was there a unit that I should have considered?

 

Any suggestions?

 

I typically play 2 Blood Angel players regularly..... one is addicted to Mephiston, the other has given him up in favour of multi-dreads, and FnP assault lists..... either way I'm just wondering if there's a legitimate unit that gives BA problems? Or even slows the machine down?

 

I did try the ever so popular TWC and found that I love them a lot more on paper than on the battle field.

[LoneSniperSG]

I'll be right there with you Prot. I'm having issues with BA lately as well. Going to try a new list that has apparent counters for Death Co, SangGuard and Sang Priests.

[JamesI]

Jaws doesn't seem like a good power against his list (since it can only hurt the drop pod unit and Mephiston (and that is unlikely since Mephy has I6 and psychic hood))

 

My experience against lists like this says kill the drop dread immediately. Everything else you should be able to handle, but the talon furioso is just such a pain.

 

You seem like you have enough GHs. I know my problem when I face Wolves is the mass of Grey Hunters usually brings me down.

[MalachiOfRuss]

I didn't see Tempest's Wrath in your RP power list, did you just miss it? If you know your opponent is going to DS tons of stuff then that should be a top priority. With 2 RP having that power going you should be able to cover pretty much your whole half of the table with Difficult & Dangerous terrain for anything Deep Striking or Jumping. Second: maybe I read it wrong, but are you saying your opponent is using his Descent of Angels ability (1D6" scatter on DS) with Drop Pods? Because DoA is not a Universal Rule for his army (like our Counter-Attack) it only applies to units that list Descent of Angels under their special rules. Drop Pods certainly don't, and (surprisingly to me!) Vanguard Veterans don't even get it (so they still scatter 2D6" when doing Heroic Intervention, interesting).

 

Further to that, you state a few times that you're having trouble with FnP units, but I don't see a whole lot of FnP countering weapons in your lists! Dump the Heavy Bolters, and put some Lascannons or (better yet) Plasma Cannons on your Long Fangs. Take Razorbacks with the Las/Plas option for their dedicated Transports. Lascannons, Plasma weapons, and Melta weapons all ignore FnP rolls (anything AP2 or AP1, and Power Weapons)! Next, you need a hard dedicated assault unit to stand up against his dedicated assault units. Here's one for you: build a unit of 4 or 5 WG in Termie armor, with some Storm Shields and Wolf Claws, and stick a Wolf Priest with them. Now you have a unit that rerolls hits and wounds and all of those attacks are 1) Armor Penetrating, and 2) FnP penetrating. Remember: if they can never get an armor save (AP1, AP2 ranged weapons, and Power melee weapons - that includes Rending attacks) - then they don't get a Feel No Pain save!

 

In the end though, if your opponent really does roll close to 90% on what should be a 50% save (4+ FnP) you are going to be in trouble. However, if he really is that good with the roll, then it's time to load your army up with what will deny him that save. Flip your Warhammer 40k 5E rulebook to the USR section, read what "punches through" Feel No Pain, and load up on that!

 

EDIT: Also, one of the best counters for a Furioso Dread is a Dread of your own. Remember that the Furioso doesn't have a "dreadnought close combat weapon" so they are striking at S7, while our Dread would be at S10. Going at the same Init, odds are in your favor that the Furioso will go down.

[Decoy]

Not enough Plasma.

 

2 Plasmacannons per Long Fang squad, 3 Las/ML for the others, three squads.

 

Hunters with Plasmaguns, Pack Leader with Combiplasma. I run five to six squads of this.

 

Mark of the Wulfen and the Banner, obviously.

 

Get rid of Jaws, stick in three Hurricanes on your Rune Priests if you're deadset on running them (which I wouldn't be. One should be enough.) Tempest's Wrath should throw off his jump-packers fairly consistently and should keep Mephy on his toes, so to speak.

 

 

Try Njal, maybe? Just for kicks?

 

I'd say lower the amount of Rune Priest you have en masse. Getting rid of two will free up some good pointage and allow you to throw in a dedicated Lord or Wolf Priest. If he wants to come to you, come right back at 'em.

 

Have you tried poking around with Logan or Ragnar, or both? Point sink? Sure, but granting most of your army an obscene amount of extra attack, and one squad Furious Charge and D3 on the charge is beastly.

 

Maybe dick around with some Lone Wolves. They're a great tarpit for those uglies that don't have power weapons, and they're hands down the best thing to throw against Talon Furioso Dreads. On average, the two will kill each other, but the Lone Wolf will make his points back and then some while the Talon dread just dies. (Remember, the worst thing you can do is feed a squad to a Blood Talon dread; make sure that it can only hit one guy, and you should be pretty well set.)

 

Remember that the BA have to come to you to win; they can't out-shoot you. Deploy in a Refused Flank, hunkering down in a corner to prevent him from coming down and encircling you. Keep your outermost units widely spread out so that his Baal can't really fire against you worth a lick (Remember to utilize the 2" spacing to it's maximum benefit and he won't ever be able to wipe out more than half a squad.) Sitting a Lord or SC in the middle with Saga of Majesty makes sure your units don't immediately break, and while your Long Fangs are sitting pretty in the back corner behind three lines of Hunters (and maybe their transports), you can throw firepower into them no matter -where- they land. The sheer amount of Plasma you can pack in a squad should be enough to really throw a dent into his army, bypassing the FNP (unless my rules-knowledge is off, but I'm tired and drunk.) The two lines of Grey Hunter infantry allows for an immediate counterattack if need be, and if it's led by Ragnar, you will absolutely wreck whatever you slam into.

 

 

BA are a one-trick pony that are really quite easy to beat. However, it seems like you have to revamp your list a LOT to achieve the desired success. We can beat them in close combat, but we have to kind of tool ourselves to be CC-based more than ranged-based.

[Prot]

Jaws doesn't seem like a good power against his list (since it can only hurt the drop pod unit and Mephiston (and that is unlikely since Mephy has I6 and psychic hood))

 

My experience against lists like this says kill the drop dread immediately. Everything else you should be able to handle, but the talon furioso is just such a pain.

 

You seem like you have enough GHs. I know my problem when I face Wolves is the mass of Grey Hunters usually brings me down.

 

Yea, I didn't know who I was playing though so this was my all comer list. I agree Jaws is pretty useless against this army as a whole.

 

 

I didn't see Tempest's Wrath in your RP power list, did you just miss it? If you know your opponent is going to DS tons of stuff then that should be a top priority. With 2 RP having that power going you should be able to cover pretty much your whole half of the table with Difficult & Dangerous terrain for anything Deep Striking or Jumping.

 

Well to be quite honest I don't find that power has any meaningful or real life effect. These are jump pack troops... So there is no roll for the difficult terrain part... it doesn't slow them at all. And of course he's going to take the chance on the 'dangerous terrain' tests.... wouldn't you?

 

For the record I did Hurricane both units, neither failed a 3+/4+ and then subsequently ignored the not so dangerous terrain, and finished off two of my squads.

 

Second: maybe I read it wrong, but are you saying your opponent is using his Descent of Angels ability (1D6" scatter on DS)

 

Nope, you're right. I probably wasn't clear enough I was just trying to get the game description out for the sake of brevity. He really doesn't need 1D6 scatter on pods... they're even easier to pinpoint using terrain/vehicles. He got them exactly where he wanted.

 

Further to that, you state a few times that you're having trouble with FnP units, but I don't see a whole lot of FnP countering weapons in your lists! Dump the Heavy Bolters, and put some Lascannons /snip AP 1-2 weapon list/

 

That's fair enough. I did have 8 Missile Launchers come down on him and the problem is time... there is no time when you can deep strike assault squads with a 6" advantage.... do you realize how precise you can be without worrying about a 12" deviation? It's an amazing difference. He simply guestimated 6" in cover, then with the jump pack he's in you. You have one turn to get the job done.

 

I will agree I could alter my Long Fang squads, but it is pretty hard to argue against the 4 Missile Launcherx 2 loud out in 1500 pt games. It -might- have made a difference, but when I think about it, I'd still only have one turn to react to precision deep striking jump packers.

 

For the record, the 4 jump packers I did kill was from 8 krak missiles in the one turn I got to fire (when they landed).

 

dedicated assault unit to stand up against his dedicated assault units. Here's one for you: build a unit of 4 or 5 WG in Termie armor, with some Storm Shields and Wolf Claws, and stick a Wolf Priest with them.

 

True enough. That unit might make a difference... or perhaps it just gets pounded by Mephiston (I was unable to stop him from flying-fleeting). At this point we are talking about changing my entire list. If that's all I could do.... I guess I'll have to accept that.

 

 

Not enough Plasma.

 

2 Plasmacannons per Long Fang squad, 3 Las/ML for the others, three squads.

 

Hunters with Plasmaguns, Pack Leader with Combiplasma. I run five to six squads of this.

 

Mark of the Wulfen and the Banner, obviously.

 

Get rid of Jaws, stick in three Hurricanes on your Rune Priests if you're deadset on running them (which I wouldn't be. One should be enough.) Tempest's Wrath should throw off his jump-packers fairly consistently and should keep Mephy on his toes, so to speak.

 

Well I can see the re-occuring theme is to get plasma in the Long Fangs. Funny enough I had been playing with two Plasma Cannons per squad until this game. I changed it up to get more Grey Hunters in the army, but I guess I will have to go back to that. Fair enough.

 

On the Rune Priests: My Priests were set up, in what I considered a strong load out of--> Jaws/Hurricane -->Jaws/Lighting -->Lightning/Hurricane.

 

I normally only take one, this was my first shot at 3.

 

I have to admit I don't know why you guys are so hot on Tempest's Wrath? I used it when the codex came out...... I found it nearly useless... what am I missing? On top of that I've been told in the past that Mephy doesn't technically have a jump pack so it doesn't work. And as stated, even when faced with Difficult Terrain, it doesn't slow jump packs down one iota. Who wouldn't take the chance and roll through it? In this game the two hurricaned squads ignored it completely, and didn't roll a one for the dangerous test.

 

 

 

Have you tried poking around with Logan or Ragnar, or both? Point sink? Sure, but granting most of your army an obscene amount of extra attack, and one squad Furious Charge and D3 on the charge is beastly.

 

 

Logan? yes. I have a very good Logan list, but it suffers to horde lists. Ragnar? Nope. I admit never used him.

 

 

Remember that the BA have to come to you to win; they can't out-shoot you. Deploy in a Refused Flank, hunkering down in a corner to prevent him from coming down and encircling you. Keep your outermost units widely spread out so that his Baal can't really fire against you worth a lick

 

Yea, I really did try that but what ruins it is the precision deep striking. There really is no risk on his part, because he can get 100% assured his Meltas are going to have range 100% of the time. His next move he is into you. Now the plasma thing you mention with the Grey Hunters? That may work....

 

I admit until now I've always melta'd up my Grey Hunters. Every game. They compensate for my lack of AT. I may have to consider plasma guns. Also Plasma kind of kills my offensiveness... since they are rapid fire..... but it's worth thinking about.

 

Thanks.

 

 

BA are a one-trick pony that are really quite easy to beat. However, it seems like you have to revamp your list a LOT to achieve the desired success. We can beat them in close combat, but we have to kind of tool ourselves to be CC-based more than ranged-based.

 

I'm not sure on this.... The way we have to use our banners at the beginning of the assault phase usually messes me up. I find the FnP is a game killer usually with me..... The only unit I believe I haven't used properly (because everyone says they're awesome) is Thunderwolf Calvary. That's the one unit that I could see giving BA a real headache in CC. Otherwise Mephiston typically makes the difference.

 

Thank you for the suggestions. Please remember I'm only playing 1500 right now too.

[Nrthstar]

We have the same problems brother. I have 2 players in my club that are running BA (both are actually starting other armies out of remorse since the BA seem to be the Iwin button for any fight) and I've only ever won a fight against either, thanks to my land raider and my dreadnought punching right through his blender dreads skull. But that game was before the storm raven release. What worries me is word is Grey Knights look to be just as bad, so this might be a trend.

 

Honestly though, I take it as the perfect challenge. This week will be a whole new build for me, I'll put up the list/results after Wednesday. BA has become my sworn foe.

[MalachiOfRuss]

Now that I think about it, you know who you should try to put in your list: our buddy Arjac Rockfist. He'd be a good fit at the head of your new WG in TDA assault unit. He's also a Mephiston-killer, since he can "hammer-jac" Meph down to I1 by throwing his hammer, then you rush the WG into him. If you have Arjac + 4 WG with Wolf Claws, there's a chance you can kill him before he has a chance to swing back at you in CC. Remember, Meph can never be part of a squad (he doesn't have the Independent Character rule), and he has no Invulnerable save, so all of those Power Weapon attacks are no-savers. With T6 he will likely survive until I1, but that's when Arjac gets to hit him. With Arjac hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+, he should be able to give him a run for his money. "Squeeze" as many Storm Shields as you can into that list (and put Combi-plasmas on the guys that you can't afford it), and you should have a unit that is capable of taking him down.

[Valerian]

Prot,

 

Hopefully this link works from my iPhone: Old Battle Report

 

There might be a few tidbits from that old report that might be helpful. I was able to play different Blood Angels lists a few times after that, and the same/similar list worked every time. Dreadnoughts with WTN and Lone Wolves with Storm Shields and a Chain Fist are great for intercepting Mephiston, Furiosos with Talons, and any other unit that you want to fix in place or destroy. Plasma Guns in Hunter Packs and a few Plasma Cannon on Long Fangs and Dreadnoughts will chew up those expensive BA Troops. He relies on FNP to help expensive models survive, so take the FNP away from him.

 

 

Edit: Adding this:

 

1. A Flamestorm Baal Predator can move a full 18" Full Out Scout Move prior to his first turn, then can move an additional 12" in his first turn, and use his 8" Template. From the spot of his deployment for this vehicle that equates to a 38" threat range with a Strength 6, AP 3 weapon that ignores Cover Saves. If you can't guarantee that you are outside of that range then you need to be in a vehicle where he can't touch you. If he doesn't deploy on the table, then he can Outflank with the Baal, which gives him a 20" threat range from either table edge when he comes on from Reserves. Consider yourself warned.

 

2. The power of the Blood Angels comes primarily from their Furious Charge. Some will get it automatically by failing/passing their 'Black Rage' roll at the beginning of the game. Everybody else will get it by having a model in their unit within 6" of a Sanguinary Priest. If you can deny them the charge then that takes away their most significant advantage. Fortunately for you, you can pretty easily take away their charge by including one or more of the following:

 

a. A Land Raider - It is an Assault vehicle with a 20" threat range for your guys on board. It makes a 12" Move, you Disembark 2", Shoot, then Charge 6".

 

b. Swift Claws Bikers - 18" Threat range with Relentless, allowing you to blast his unit with your Twin-linked Bolters, Flamer, and Heavy Bolter (definitely add the Attack Bike!) before you charge.

 

c. Sky Claws - 18" Threat range with a pile of airborne Blood Claws looking for a fight! Add a Wolf Priest with Preferred Enemy versus Jump Infantry to ensure optimal killyness.

 

d. Lone Wolf - he's got crap for Mobility (7-12" including the Run move), but just get him between incoming Blood Angels units and the rest of your army. He is the perfect interdiction force, and might even manage to kill off one of their Independent Characters (go for the Sanguinary Priest, if you can!). Importantly, he is cheap enough to throw away, might do some damage, but definitely disrupts the enemies' synchronized attack.

 

In addition to the above units that will remove his Furious Charge advantage, the following are very helpful:

 

a. Rune Priest with Tempests Wrath plus whatever. Tempests Wrath really screws with Jump Infantry. Force him to take enought Difficult and Dangerous terrain tests and he'll start losing guys left and right. There is no Armour Save to avoid it, so if one of his Sanguinary Priests lose a Wound to failed DT test, then he'll cry real tears. Additionally, your Rune Priest will be exceptionally helpful in shutting down his Psychic Powers. If he brings Mephiston, then you definitely want to shut down his powers to remove his extra movement and nasty, nasty, close combat boons.

 

b. Long Fangs are always good to bring regardless of who you fight.

 

c. Plasma guns, Plasma Cannon, anything that takes away their FnP until you can remove those annoying Sanguinary Priests.

 

 

Edit Again:

 

Also, I advise you to look over the rules for Tempests Wrath again - it is perfect for use against Blood Angels. His skimmers (Stormravens), Jump Infantry, and units deploying by Deep Strike (Drop Pods) that finish their move within 24" of the Rune Priest count all terrain as both Difficult and Dangerous.

 

Dangerous means that any model that is affected in that list above will straight up die, no armour save and no FNP, if they roll a 1 on the d6. Only an Invulnerable Save will help, and he'll only have a few models that have one. Even though his Jump Infantry can still move their 12", they still have to roll to see if any models get killed from the Dangerous Terrain.

 

Difficult Terrain still affects his Jump Infantry, because they have to make their Difficult Terrain roll when Assaulting. Depending on how they roll, the unit might not roll high enough to contact your unit.

 

 

Best of luck,

 

 

Valerian

[Prot]

Just maybe I should add this, because you may not guess it from my original post.

 

I've played against Blood Angels more times than I can count since and before their latest codex..... Some of the responses are from a perspective of me not knowing how BA work. Trust me, I've played them.... maybe 20+ times? I don't know for sure. I've played the Mephiston variants with and without the Storm Raven, and I've played the non-Mephiston variants (I do have a friend that feels 'sheepish' about including Mephiston in his army.)

 

Prot,

 

Hopefully this link works from my iPhone: Old Battle Report

 

Thanks. I'll read it later tonight or first thing tomorrow. I'm devising a new list now.

 

Edit: Adding this:

 

1. A Flamestorm Baal Predator can move a full 18" Full Out Scout Move prior to his first turn, /snip

 

Thanks for the warning. My opponent knows me better than that though, he flanked it so it came in during turn 3. We were almost done by then so it wasn't really about dodging special rules as much as just trying to survive by then.

 

a. Rune Priest with Tempests Wrath plus whatever. Tempests Wrath really screws with Jump Infantry. Force him to take enought Difficult and Dangerous terrain tests and he'll start losing guys left and right. There is no Armour Save to avoid it, so if one of his Sanguinary Priests lose a Wound to failed DT test, then he'll cry real tears. Additionally, your Rune Priest will be exceptionally helpful in shutting down his Psychic Powers. If he brings Mephiston, then you definitely want to shut down his powers to remove his extra movement and nasty, nasty, close combat boons.

 

Okay, again I don't know if I have been playing Tempest wrong or not, but I find it complete c-r-a-p. It only affects certain units..... Mephiston does NOT have a jump pack. That's what I've been told a few dozen times. He moves LIKE a jump pack infantry.

 

Also, again with Hurricane I get the same effect of Dangerous/Difficult. I don't know if you guys play people who are afraid of losing a total average of 1 wound per jump, but it does not slow down jump packs! No one I play even considers that power mildly..... annoying. They still take the chance, jump a full 12" and wreck your day. And with precision deep striking, you will only make them go through this maybe once per game..... perhaps if you're super lucky, twice.

 

 

Edit Again:

 

Also, I advise you to look over the rules for Tempests Wrath again - it is perfect for use against Blood Angels. His skimmers (Stormravens), Jump Infantry, and units deploying by Deep Strike (Drop Pods) that finish their move within 24" of the Rune Priest count all terrain as both Difficult and Dangerous.

 

Dangerous means that any model that is affected in that list above will straight up die, no armour save and no FNP, if they roll a 1 on the d6. Only an Invulnerable Save will help, and he'll only have a few models that have one. Even though his Jump Infantry can still move their 12", they still have to roll to see if any models get killed from the Dangerous Terrain.

 

Difficult Terrain still affects his Jump Infantry, because they have to make their Difficult Terrain roll when Assaulting. Depending on how they roll, the unit might not roll high enough to contact your unit.

 

 

Again, I have no faith in this ability. It doesn't effect the game, or the pace of the game at all.... All I can figure out is you play against people that have this delusion that the Tempest is going to destroy their army..... when you Deep Strike no more than 6" away from your primary target with jump packs on, it's really, really, really hard to make some care about a 6" difficult terrain roll.

 

The pods aren't doing anything the turn they arrive anyway but perhaps their contents are shooting?

 

Mephiston does not have a jump pack.

 

I played Tempest for the first 2 months or so when the codex came out, I really am having trouble thinking of people losing more than a handful of models.... total. I think in my game against the BA player, he lost... zero out of two Hurricane'd squads, and was slowed for about zero inches. (he just jumps to within an inch of his target.... who wouldn't ?)

 

 

I have been playing it that you can only force a dangerous terrain test during the movement phase _only_. Have I been playing this wrong?

 

Thanks for the advice, truly but unless I am playing Dangerous terrain incorrectly, nothing in my experience makes Tempest worth the paper it's written on. I'll check out the batrep too.

 

I have beat BA, and typically it involved a boat load of firepower via Logan and a 'relentless' nasty squad of Long Fangs with Arjac attached to it. (That's my version of him in my avatar). It does work, but what a boat load of points that really has trouble with a lot of other armies out there.

 

 

I really dislike the idea of altering my army to play BA. It doesn't work like that for me typically anyway, so I have to consider 'all comer' lists to be safe. :)

[LoneSniperSG]

Prot, there's one thing I will tell you.

 

There's an excellent unit in our army book that can counter a Blood-Talon Dread in Close Combat at the drop of a hat. Our humble Dreadnought.

 

The thing about Blood Talons is that they don't get to be Str 10 Power Fists like our Dread have. They sacrifice power to become a blender. Against our armor 12, he'll have to roll sixes to do anything, while your Dread should easily be able to punch right through the thing's sarcophagus like mine did.

[Decoy]

I don't -think- this is a case of being wrong, but if it is, please let me know.

 

I think the best thing about Tempest is that it causes Difficult Terrain, aye. That includes on their assault. Likewise, the Dangerous Terrain (I think) is tested twice; once upon moving, and once in the assault phase.

 

Also, to my knowledge, assaulting Jump Packers still have to take difficult terrain. Meaning if he's dropping in 6" from you, there may be a decent chance that he doesn't get the charge off.

 

 

I'd bring up more, but I'm drinking heavily with a few friends here to mourn the loss of a packmate. I may be back later.

[Godhead]

Heya Prot, I typically use one objective holder GH squad in a las/plas razorback (5 gh's). I'll put a plasma gun on that squad and a combi plasma/fist on the pack leader with them. If i'm shaving points I'll use melta's on these guys instead, either way it's pretty decent at punching holes in fnp units and backing up the longfangs. If you screen the razorback then you can sit stationary and fire the plasma and lascannon into a unit. If they are less than 12 inches away then you're popping out 3 ap2 shots.

 

I like to include an assault/counter assault unit in all my lists. I personally prefer the TWC, but termies work just as well. You need something that ignores armor and is durable.

 

All my current lists include 2 runepriests starting from 1k up to 1500 pts, past that I'll include a WL to lead my TWC as well as the two RP's. A str 10 Thunderhammer can definately ruin an AV 13 dreads day.

 

What's your load out for your GH's? Are you including packleaders? Do you use wolf standards? Are you packing fists on the WGPL's if you are using them?

 

As a side note, I too share your feelings about tempest wrath not really being worth inclusion in an all comers list. My two priests run LL/MH, LL/Jaws. I am pretty happy with that set up.

 

For annihilation missions I'll castle up that way I can support all my units. I try to make those dreads force me out of my rides and hatch hang my meltas out to bust him open. Meph is tough, but I guess you are just rolling bad on the runic weapon rolls. Denying him psychic abilities really helps take some of the bite off. A hidden thunderhammer helps a bunch.

[Valerian]

I don't -think- this is a case of being wrong, but if it is, please let me know.

 

I think the best thing about Tempest is that it causes Difficult Terrain, aye. That includes on their assault. Likewise, the Dangerous Terrain (I think) is tested twice; once upon moving, and once in the assault phase.

 

Yes, which means that an average 10 Marine strong Blood Angels Assault Squad should lose 2 or 3 models before they make contact with you (e.g. about 30% of a unit's combat power), just from Tempest Wrath alone. This applies to every unit that meets the criteria in a 24" radius, which could net you quite a few extra kills.

 

Also, to my knowledge, assaulting Jump Packers still have to take difficult terrain. Meaning if he's dropping in 6" from you, there may be a decent chance that he doesn't get the charge off.

 

That's correct, too. If they jump within 6", then they risk a Deep Strike Mishap, which can really ruin their day (assuming no Dante attached for Vanguard Veterans). So, if they play it smart/safe and drop just out of 6", then there is an okay chance that they don't roll a 6 on the 2d6 to get to your lines. If they aren't Vanguard, then they can't assault the turn that they land, even if it is right in front of you, so you get to shoot them up with your pistols and charge them. If you rob them of Furious Charge, Hunter packs should easily take care of Angels.

 

I'd bring up more, but I'm drinking heavily with a few friends here to mourn the loss of a packmate. I may be back later.

 

Sorry to hear about your loss, Decoy, my condolences to you and your mates.

 

V

[Valerian]

Just maybe I should add this, because you may not guess it from my original post.

 

I've played against Blood Angels more times than I can count since and before their latest codex..... Some of the responses are from a perspective of me not knowing how BA work. Trust me, I've played them.... maybe 20+ times? I don't know for sure. I've played the Mephiston variants with and without the Storm Raven, and I've played the non-Mephiston variants (I do have a friend that feels 'sheepish' about including Mephiston in his army.)

 

Sorry for the tone of my earlier post; it was a copy and paste from an earlier thread in which the player was new to the game, and new to playing BA. The recommendations still were appropriate, so I just copied it over to this thread. I did not intend for it to sound like I was talking to a noob, because I know that's not the case. Either way, hopefully some of what I provided might be helpful.

 

Prot,

 

Hopefully this link works from my iPhone: Old Battle Report

 

Thanks. I'll read it later tonight or first thing tomorrow. I'm devising a new list now.

 

Cool. Throw it up here for comments when you get it worked out. Also, if you can be more specific about the BA lists that are troubling you...

 

Edit: Adding this:

 

1. A Flamestorm Baal Predator can move a full 18" Full Out Scout Move prior to his first turn, /snip

 

Thanks for the warning. My opponent knows me better than that though, he flanked it so it came in during turn 3. We were almost done by then so it wasn't really about dodging special rules as much as just trying to survive by then.

 

a. Rune Priest with Tempests Wrath plus whatever. Tempests Wrath really screws with Jump Infantry. Force him to take enought Difficult and Dangerous terrain tests and he'll start losing guys left and right. There is no Armour Save to avoid it, so if one of his Sanguinary Priests lose a Wound to failed DT test, then he'll cry real tears. Additionally, your Rune Priest will be exceptionally helpful in shutting down his Psychic Powers. If he brings Mephiston, then you definitely want to shut down his powers to remove his extra movement and nasty, nasty, close combat boons.

 

Okay, again I don't know if I have been playing Tempest wrong or not, but I find it complete c-r-a-p. It only affects certain units..... Mephiston does NOT have a jump pack. That's what I've been told a few dozen times. He moves LIKE a jump pack infantry.

 

Yes, it doesn't affect everything, but it will affect about 90% of what the Angels are going to throw at you. It may or may not affect Mephiston, will need to ask around the BA forum for opinions. TW affects Jump Infantry, not just models with Jump Packs, so if he is using Wings, he moves as/like Jump Infantry, so you could easily make the argument. Regardless, even if it doesn't affect him, it affects so many other units to make it worthwhile.

 

Also, again with Hurricane I get the same effect of Dangerous/Difficult.

 

MH is great, but only affects a single unit up to 18" away (IIRC), but TW affects every unit (of appropriate type) within 24".

 

I don't know if you guys play people who are afraid of losing a total average of 1 wound per jump, but it does not slow down jump packs! No one I play even considers that power mildly..... annoying.

It'll slow them down in the Assault Phase, at least, and should kill several models in each unit (3 or 4 on average in a unit of 10 that Moves and Assaults through Dangerous Terrain). If you can take a 10 Marine Squad down to 6 (no FNP save!), before they make contact, that is well worth it to me!

 

They still take the chance, jump a full 12" and wreck your day. And with precision deep striking, you will only make them go through this maybe once per game..... perhaps if you're super lucky, twice.

 

Once is enough to thin the lines a bit (for me, anyway).

 

I have been playing it that you can only force a dangerous terrain test during the movement phase _only_. Have I been playing this wrong?

 

Yes, it applies in Movement and Assault phases.

 

Thanks for the advice, truly but unless I am playing Dangerous terrain incorrectly, nothing in my experience makes Tempest worth the paper it's written on. I'll check out the batrep too.

 

I really dislike the idea of altering my army to play BA. It doesn't work like that for me typically anyway, so I have to consider 'all comer' lists to be safe. ;)

 

I'm for doing an all-comers list, too, absolutely, but most of the stuff I use works in such a list. Not once in my games did I tailor versus BA, but they choices worked anyway.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Grimtooth]

You are playing Tempest Wrath wrong which is probably why you lack so much faith that some of us have in it.

 

Tempest Wrath is part of my all-comers. Just off the top of my head it has played hell with the following:

 

IG Venetta/Valk Veteran Alpha Strike Lists

Daemons

BA DoA lists

BA Storm Raven Alpha Strike lists

Dark Eldar

Eldar

 

As Valerian points out, it is a 24" bubble that those jump packers have to do the following:

 

Deep Strike (Roll dangerous terrain tests)

Move (roll dangerous terrain tests)

Assaukt (roll difficult terrain test AND dangerous terrain tests)

 

That is not taking into account if you decide to pour fire into them and assault during your turn to negate their charge bonus.

 

If you do not go plasma and stick with missile launchers, you should not be using krak missiles against those nice clumped up deep striking FnP units. Since they can negate the str 8 wound and are not multi-wound anyway, just dump frags into the squad. Force mass amount of saves to force mass amount of FnP rolls.

[ReachOnyx2552]

Try using Ragnar Blackmane with a Fenrisian wolf squad. Or a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount with Runic Armour, two wolf claws, Wolftooth Necklace, And Saga of the Warrior Born with a pack of Ferisians. I play BA and these two units give even the SG a run for their money. Just some tips thrown out there.

[LoneSniperSG]

Like I said above, probably the hardest thing to eliminate is the Sanguinary Priests but they can be solved with a little selective assaulting, squad-killer shooting (templates), or firepower spam.

 

Sang Guard are tough, but easy to deal with. Plasma eats them alive, as well as STR 10 AP2 VINDICATOOORRRRR rawr.

 

Blood Talon dreads easily countered with Dreads. Their piddly Str6 weapons are not reliable against AV12

 

Death Company are terrible. Why anyone uses them, I have zero idea. Theyre expensive, which means small effective units. To deal with them we have to take a lesson from the Imperial Guard and unleash Blood Claw spam. 60+ attacks on a charge will mow Death Co down.

 

Mephistion, the Sanguinor, Astorath the Grim and Dante are their own beasts.. best to treat them like elite MC's, but I never face them so I'm not sure on how to counter them aside from our Rune Priest powers.

 

The one thing you will find Prot is that BA are highly dependent on their mobility to maximize their killing power. Jump Packs and Deep Striking are horrendously common, because an effective BA army needs that. Space Wolves are a different machine and can operate differently, and dare I say, more easily than BA or other marines.

 

Last on the list: Storm Ravens. Honestly as an IG Valkyrie owner, Storm Ravens are junk. AV12 all around, but inferior to the Valkyrie which has Extra Armor by default. The Storm Raven is just like any fast skimmer, easily shot to hell since it's big and flies, and is not invincible. Its only saving grace is Flat Out movement, which can be screwed over with Rune Priest powers.

[ReachOnyx2552]

Prot, there's one thing I will tell you.

 

There's an excellent unit in our army book that can counter a Blood-Talon Dread in Close Combat at the drop of a hat. Our humble Dreadnought.

 

The thing about Blood Talons is that they don't get to be Str 10 Power Fists like our Dread have. They sacrifice power to become a blender. Against our armor 12, he'll have to roll sixes to do anything, while your Dread should easily be able to punch right through the thing's sarcophagus like mine did.

 

The one problem with that is the Furioso's Meltagun/Magna Grapple. Both Strength 8, need 4+ to hit front and side, 2+ to hit rear.

[LoneSniperSG]

Prot, there's one thing I will tell you.

 

There's an excellent unit in our army book that can counter a Blood-Talon Dread in Close Combat at the drop of a hat. Our humble Dreadnought.

 

The thing about Blood Talons is that they don't get to be Str 10 Power Fists like our Dread have. They sacrifice power to become a blender. Against our armor 12, he'll have to roll sixes to do anything, while your Dread should easily be able to punch right through the thing's sarcophagus like mine did.

 

The one problem with that is the Furioso's Meltagun/Magna Grapple. Both Strength 8, need 4+ to hit front and side, 2+ to hit rear.

 

Don't Furiosos have the Headstrong rule, or something that means they have to charge anything within 6"?

 

If not, then they can also be shot to hell when they drop in, as they can't move right away.

[ReachOnyx2552]

Like I said above, probably the hardest thing to eliminate is the Sanguinary Priests but they can be solved with a little selective assaulting, squad-killer shooting (templates), or firepower spam.

 

Sang Guard are tough, but easy to deal with. Plasma eats them alive, as well as STR 10 AP2 VINDICATOOORRRRR rawr.

 

Blood Talon dreads easily countered with Dreads. Their piddly Str6 weapons are not reliable against AV12

 

Death Company are terrible. Why anyone uses them, I have zero idea. Theyre expensive, which means small effective units. To deal with them we have to take a lesson from the Imperial Guard and unleash Blood Claw spam. 60+ attacks on a charge will mow Death Co down.

 

Mephistion, the Sanguinor, Astorath the Grim and Dante are their own beasts.. best to treat them like elite MC's, but I never face them so I'm not sure on how to counter them aside from our Rune Priest powers.

 

The one thing you will find Prot is that BA are highly dependent on their mobility to maximize their killing power. Jump Packs and Deep Striking are horrendously common, because an effective BA army needs that. Space Wolves are a different machine and can operate differently, and dare I say, more easily than BA or other marines.

 

Last on the list: Storm Ravens. Honestly as an IG Valkyrie owner, Storm Ravens are junk. AV12 all around, but inferior to the Valkyrie which has Extra Armor by default. The Storm Raven is just like any fast skimmer, easily shot to @#!*% since it's big and flies, and is not invincible. Its only saving grace is Flat Out movement, which can be screwed over with Rune Priest powers.

 

The DC have their uses and are going to assault you if given the chance. That WILL be brutal with Furious Charge. Especially with Lemartes who allows the squad he joined to re-roll to hits (his squad only) and DC's to wounds. It is an Expensive unit (290 pts) but if they assault the're going to mow you down.

 

As for taking out Mephiston, Sanguinor, Astorath the Grim and Dante, light em up with everything you can spare. Especially Mepheston(he only has 5 Wounds), enough fire will take him out no problem. As for the rest of them they are probably going to be in a squad (if the BA player is smart). So take out as much as you can with shooting then assault with a powerful CC squad.

[ReachOnyx2552]

Prot, there's one thing I will tell you.

 

There's an excellent unit in our army book that can counter a Blood-Talon Dread in Close Combat at the drop of a hat. Our humble Dreadnought.

 

The thing about Blood Talons is that they don't get to be Str 10 Power Fists like our Dread have. They sacrifice power to become a blender. Against our armor 12, he'll have to roll sixes to do anything, while your Dread should easily be able to punch right through the thing's sarcophagus like mine did.

 

The one problem with that is the Furioso's Meltagun/Magna Grapple. Both Strength 8, need 4+ to hit front and side, 2+ to hit rear.

 

Don't Furiosos have the Headstrong rule, or something that means they have to charge anything within 6"?

 

If not, then they can also be shot to @#!*% when they drop in, as they can't move right away.

 

No, your thinking of the Death Co. Dreadnought and Rage which is you must move as fast as possible to the enemy.

[the jeske]

o it's pretty much the anti-me list here.....

not realy it is a standard list[well maybe not the flamestorm pred taken as single]. or should I rather say this is a bad build mixed force army . because if he is doing DoA he should run sang as HQ [or a libby] and not mefo .

 

Basically my list was RP's in 3 rhinos, with 3/4 squads of Grey hunters using the typical loadout... a mixture of Jaws, Hurricane, Lightning.

dont play with 3 HQs at 1500 pts . if you have to take a second dude then take a lord not 3 RP which give you nothing. dont play with understrenght GH squad . either go 10 dudes with the classic Mark +power weapon x2special or go 9 +WG power weapon + fist + mark . dont use single razors dont dont help you much but are not free. if you need a transport for your HQ that should not be in hth[the RP] then buy a rhino [at least you will be able to help the rhino wall or LoS block LF].

Dont put single hvy bolters in to LF it does not make sense

[Prot]

Basically my list was RP's in 3 rhinos, with 3/4 squads of Grey hunters using the typical loadout... a mixture of Jaws, Hurricane, Lightning.

dont play with 3 HQs at 1500 pts . if you have to take a second dude then take a lord not 3 RP which give you nothing. dont play with understrenght GH squad . either go 10 dudes with the classic Mark +power weapon x2special or go 9 +WG power weapon + fist + mark . dont use single razors dont dont help you much but are not free. if you need a transport for your HQ that should not be in hth[the RP] then buy a rhino [at least you will be able to help the rhino wall or LoS block LF].

Dont put single hvy bolters in to LF it does not make sense

 

 

Well here's the thinking on that.... if you take a multi Rune Priest army, the Grey Hunters MUST be under full strength. Or else you can't Rhino pop your psyker powers.

 

The other consideration is the horrid leadership Grey Hunters have. (I have had entire games go south from tank shocking... I seem to notice my area really uses tank shocking a lot...it can be extremely powerful and something I find is under used in other areas) Anyway low leadership of Grey Hunters had me switch out full non-drop podding squads to Wolf Guard enhanced Grey Hunter units like you describe.

 

I really did think the 3 Rune Priest idea would be a better idea than it was.

[Prot]

You are playing Tempest Wrath wrong which is probably why you lack so much faith that some of us have in it.

 

 

As Valerian points out, it is a 24" bubble that those jump packers have to do the following:

 

Deep Strike (Roll dangerous terrain tests)

Move (roll dangerous terrain tests)

Assaukt (roll difficult terrain test AND dangerous terrain tests)

 

That is not taking into account if you decide to pour fire into them and assault during your turn to negate their charge bonus.

 

Ok so you're saying a unit can take multiple dangerous terrain tests in a turn, and outside of the movement phase? If this is true, then I had been told to use this incorrectly.... as long as you're pretty sure about this. If I can recall way back, I started playing it this way, someone called me on it saying the test only took place during movement. This is better... not awesome, but better.

 

If you do not go plasma and stick with missile launchers, you should not be using krak missiles against those nice clumped up deep striking FnP units. Since they can negate the str 8 wound and are not multi-wound anyway, just dump frags into the squad. Force mass amount of saves to force mass amount of FnP rolls.

 

How do you negate a strength 8 wound? The truth is I got sick of watching my opponent make about 65% of his 3+ saves, then make the 4+ saves. I have to be honest here and say that I actually enjoyed outright killing the buggers with krak missiles in the melon. :)