Power Sword on Deathwing Sarge

[IanSturrock]

So, it's often been suggested that the power sword on the DW sarge is worth keeping, so as to remove some enemy attacks before said enemies get to strike.

 

I'm not too sure of this one, any more!

 

Let's be generous and assume our termies get the charge (which certainly isn't guaranteed unless they're in a Land Raider, and if they *are* in a Land Raider you almost certainly don't want them armed with power swords). The sarge has 3 attacks, of which 1.5 hit; against T4 foes, 0.75 wound. Are there many situations where this is really more worthwhile than the average of 1.25 wounds at I1 that you'd get for giving him a TH/SS, or a chainfist? I'm ignoring the storm bolter for the moment, and assuming that most of us have at least 1-2 TH/SS termies in every squad for the invulnerable saves, so that it's easy enough to make that TH/SS either the sarge or not, depending on our preference (i.e. a squad of TH/SS x 2, SB/PF, SB/CF, SB/PF/CML is the same price and just as good for wound allocation as one of TH/SS x 2, SB/PW, SB/CF, SB/PF/CML). If we do really want some attacks at I4 (and I'm not sure we do -- it only really helps against stuff that strikes at I2 or I3, which there isn't much of other than charged Orks -- unlikely -- or Guardsmen -- rarely much of threat to termies), aren't we better with LC/LC (4 attacks on the charge, 2 hit, 1.5 wound -- twice as powerful)?

 

Any thoughts about the viability of the "traditional" sarge loadout in a competitive list? Even in our ideal situation, where we get to charge Ork slugga boyz, on average all the sarge's power sword does is remove 0.09375 wounds on our terminators; so your sarge has less than a 10% chance to save one terminator. Can anyone refute this, or offer other situations where it's actually useful? Or do I just model all my sarges with TH/SS from now on? :blink:

[Brom MKIV]

Th/ss all the way. I was a strong supporter of mixed squads with only 2-3 th/ss but after many games with 2 th/ss squads and 2 mixed squads with only 2 th/ss each I can honestly say I was wrong. The serg used to play more of a role by making his attacks and then 'taking one for the team'. This was when deathwing needed to maximize everyone wound set and stay out of assault range but within 24" for max stormbolter fire. Now there just isnt a good reason to take anything but th/ss +cml, other than for aesthetic reasons that is. My squads sergeants are all aobr sergeants th/ss to make sure they still get remembered for past sacrifices :D My 2 cents.

[RayJ]

I wouldn't say that the power weapon is a deterrent from large squads, but it is a bit of a deterrent from smaller squads. When each model swigning at you has 3-4 attacks, taking out just 1 can be big (especially when there aren't many left in the squad).

 

That being said, you will get better defensive attack ability from a pair of lightning claws. If the only reason you are picking wargear option is for defensive attack measures, then you should look there first.

 

The biggest reason for keeping the sergeant the way he comes normally, however is for wound allocation. He is the only model in the standard squad to be armed differently off the bat, which opens up plenty of options. With a truly mixed squad, you can use this to give all of your models different gear, which has its pros and cons. In my current list, this is one of the reasons I am running my sergeants this way. However, I have now added more storm shields to my squads, and I think lightning claws would be a better option in my current list.

 

There are several weapon loadouts for deathwing squads that are optimal. Choosing which sergeant wargear you want will need to take into consideration the rest of the squad, the rest of the army list, and what you are worried about defensively and offensively.

 

Long story short: the power weapon is still worth keeping, but isn't right for every occasion.

[IanSturrock]

I'm still not sure. Most of the stuff that's a real threat to terminators in CC is either faster than I4, or is striking at I1 anyway (and in the latter case there is some benefit to taking one of them out with the Sarge at I4, but probably less chance of that happening, given that the enemy probably has 3++). Ray, in your current list (assuming the one on your blog is still up to date) you could swap

 

TH/SS x2, TH/SS/CML, SB/PW, SB/CF

 

for

 

TH/SS x2, TH/SS/CML, SB/PF, SB/CF

 

and still have the same number of different model types for wound allocation.

 

I agree that each squad wants at least 3 TH/SS termies, if they're going to be genuinely durable. I have a personal break-point of wanting a minimum of 2 Storm Bolters in the squad, if I'm including any SBs at all; I think that having only 1 means you end up without enough anti-horde power to make it worthwhile including it at all, and you may as well just have all TH/SS unless you feel the need for a CF. So right now I'm (regretfully) not planning on using any lightning claw termies other than Belial.

[puck]

I think the main benefit to "traditional load outs" is the ability to shoot something during the shooting phase with SB's. If for whatever reason your terminators don't have transport they can still pick on things while they chase down a target. There was an interesting article in the Librarium on the tactical vs assault terminator choice and the proper use of terminators as "big bullys" that should go after squishy firebase type units using their shooting turns to keep contributing while not in melee combat.

[IanSturrock]

Puck, yeah, I like that approach. Having 2-3 storm bolters in the unit makes it quite versatile. I'm just advocating powerfists/chainfists as significantly more effective than power weapons, on the terminators in the unit that don't have thunder hammers. It's easy enough to make the sarge one of the TH/SS models.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

TH/SS x2, TH/SS/CML, SB/PW, SB/CF

 

for

 

TH/SS x2, TH/SS/CML, SB/PF, SB/CF

 

and still have the same number of different model types for wound allocation.

You actually pick up one more model type:

Sergeant with TH/SS, TH/SS, TH/SS/CML, SB/PF, SB/CF.

 

Although he is armed the same, he is still a Sergeant and has a separate stat line in the unit entry. Therefore he is a separate group. That's why I don't keep my DW sergeant the same. If I give two TH/SSs to regular Termies, it creates only one group, out of 3 models (2 models+Sergeant). Giving him one TH/SS makes 3 groups out of 3 models. It's just efficient. :devil:

[Isiah]

Although he is armed the same, he is still a Sergeant and has a separate stat line in the unit entry. Therefore he is a separate group. That's why I don't keep my DW sergeant the same. If I give two TH/SSs to regular Termies, it creates only one group, out of 3 models (2 models+Sergeant). Giving him one TH/SS makes 3 groups out of 3 models. It's just efficient. ;)

 

No.

 

His name has no bearing here. If he has the same weapons as others of his squad, and as he has the same statline - then he is considered as being the same model "in gaming terms" so is NOT a separate group for wound allocation purposes. [bRB p39].

 

But if he keeps his power sword and storm bolter - then in gaming terms he is a different model so yes is a separate group.

 

Cheers

I

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

I hate to be pedantic, Isiah, but he doesn't have the same statline. He has his own. His statline is similar, but no matter what equipment he carries, he uses the Deathwing Sergeant statline. That would seem to make him a different model.

 

I can definitely see where you are coming from. *shrug* I'll take another look at it tonight.

[EPK]

I hate to be pedantic, Isiah, but he doesn't have the same statline. He has his own. His statline is similar, but no matter what equipment he carries, he uses the Deathwing Sergeant statline. That would seem to make him a different model.

 

I can definitely see where you are coming from. *shrug* I'll take another look at it tonight.

 

I tried to make the same argument but once I reread the rule that Isiah noted and really thought about it, it makes sense. Though GW fails to throughly explain the idea of "in gaming terms" I came to the conclusion that since the title of a unit/model has nothing to do with the game, it has no baring on said rule. What criteria do matter in game terms? Stats and gear, of which he would have the same if you had to TH/SS.

[breng77]

Yeah the rule says nothing about statline, it says same in gaming termis and a terminator with TH/SS is the same in gaming terms as the sarge with TH/SS.

[EPK]

Yeah the rule says nothing about statline, it says same in gaming termis and a terminator with TH/SS is the same in gaming terms as the sarge with TH/SS.

 

Actually, I would consider the stat line something that is accounted for in gaming terms, as it effects the game and how it is played out - the title of model however does not. If DW Sergeants had even one stat different, they would be different in gaming terms. I believe the rule mentions stat line specifically in the example.

 

But regardless I see we are on the same line as far as the topic at hand goes.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Yep, after reading the rule again, I was wrong. Point conceeded. -_- My bad.

[breng77]

Actually, I would consider the stat line something that is accounted for in gaming terms, as it effects the game and how it is played out - the title of model however does not.

 

Yes a different set of stats would count, but just a separate line listing the same stats would not.