Clewz Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Was Ingethel actually ascended to daemonhood or did she just summon a daemon that assumed her name? I personally think the latter. ADBs description seems to fit previous descriptions of summoning a greater daemon with the body exploding as the daemon appears and its unlikely that a daemon would give its true name out. Plus it seems the typical cold and callous act that the gods have a tendency towards. What your take on this? It gets me wondering what other appearances of daemons can we expect in the future Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 ADB is regular here, he may offer insight. But i think her personality remained intact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2681578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 maybe she was possessed. Daemons are known to change the flesh of their hosts to suit their "needs". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2681607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Maybe its symbiotic? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2681933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The Cadians' knowledge of daemonmancy was probably stellar enough to have clearly negotiated contracts between the summoned daemon and the hosting physical body. It could very well be Ingethel wearing a greater daemon's skin (at first; whether or not she would stay in control later on down the line would depend on several variables). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2682329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I thought it was just her becoming a "daemon princess" more then being possessed, either way was a pretty sick description of a daemonic being. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2682562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I doubt she did anything good enough to become a prince/princess Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2682689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Brought Lorgar to the point he'd sent his guys into the EoT, then follow himself? That isn't small potatoes. But I reckon she was possessed - the daemon clearly had knowledge of the Fall of the Eldar. IMO. ADB to correct me shortly probably! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2682693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 It came from understanding I believe. The Word bearers at the time didn't understand the true nature of Daemons or possession, so when she possessed they still referred to her as her previous identity. And names have power so a Daemon would be happy to keep mortals in the dark regarding it's true name and accept them using an alias. Of course I'm sure A D-B will come in and completely contradict me, so don't hold it against me if his intention was different to my interpretation! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2682823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloeberjong Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I think she died...the description was pretty vivid to me :) It is also a completely different description to the actual possessed marines who tend to keep their body intact and in one place... Just a vessel for the deamon to materialise. And then what Captain Idaho said. It was probably a very nice soul for the deamon to eat though. Or whatever ADB says it is :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2683952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I read it as possession too. The gruesome description of the transformation sounds more like soul munching than proper ascendancy to me. I would also assume (key word here) that the daemon took the guise / name of Ingethel after the transformation, in an attempt to show the supposed symbiosis between chaos and humans, that Ingethel had 'ascended' and so could all others if they followed the same path. Everyone loves demon lies <3 Certainly sounds a lot better than 'Rawr!! Ieatyoursoooooul' if you're trying to convince people you're on their side. Though the argument above that bringing Lorgar and the Word Bearers into the fold would justify ascendancy is a compelling one. But enough of my spit-balling shennanigans, it would be great to get a definitive answer from the author... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2684333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 She sort of just semi-convinced Lorgar to check the warp out. She wasn't directly in control over the situation. Maybe if she did something like sabotage the ship so the Word Bearers would get stuck in the warp then she could be awesome enough for daemonhood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2684975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 She sort of just semi-convinced Lorgar to check the warp out. She wasn't directly in control over the situation. Maybe if she did something like sabotage the ship so the Word Bearers would get stuck in the warp then she could be awesome enough for daemonhood. Taken from The First Heretic by Aaron Dembski-Bowden (Black Library) Ingethel speaks the truth. This was all ordained. The storm that stranded us. The screams that summoned us. The fear that led Vendatha to betray us. All part of a... a plan. It's so clear to me. The dreams. The whispers. Decade after decade of... - Lorgar Doesn't sound like the thoughts of the 'semi-convinced' to me :) And this is of course before any venture into the eye. Seems to me that the only part of the situation Ingethel didn't control was counting on Lorgar to approve of the '10th sacrifice'......which he did....so it was fine.....I think Ingethel got cake :blink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2685399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I'm continually amazed that you guys debate this, sort it out, analyse it and understand it perfectly, then imagine that me saying anything about it will be of any use at all. That's actually pretty humbling. I don't have much to say beyond "But you get it already", but I'll try to be at least a little useful. Where that scene was concerned (much like the Exalted, in Soul Hunter; Argel Tal in The First Heretic; and a certain minor character in the forthcoming Blood Reaver) I'm trying to put forward the perception that there's more to meshing with daemons than a straight cut divide between "being possessed" and "being made into a daemon yourself". To us, with our codices and rules and army list entries for Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Marines, we can see a very... uh... "artificial" divide, but it's one that works quite well for game purposes. However, in-universe, I find it a bit bland if it's so clear cut. Daemons would blend with human biology and the mortal soul to varying degrees and potencies, manifesting with differing degrees of control over (or subservience to) the host. No symbiosis would be quite the same. Essentially, you could slap a tag on Ingethel and say "She got made into a Daemon Prince", and that's "true", I guess, but that slices off a lot of the nuance. She (It...) would be a very, very weak Daemon Prince on the tabletop, and not one bred for battle. Conversely, she can manipulate the tides of the warp extremely well. She's definitely not a mortal raised to daemonhood on account of great deeds in the name of the Ruinous Powers, but ascended because she surrendered herself, through intense, sacred and powerful shamanic ritual, to the Pantheon and the warp. She was a conduit for the Divine Plan, in perfect love and perfect trust. Really, though, it sounds like a cop-out to say "She can be whatever you like", but sometimes that's the point. It's actually a relatively difficult process to write something like this and keep it vague, mysterious, with its essence constantly in narrative flux, and I tried that with Ingethel, rather than flat-out saying in the novel whether she was X, Y or Z. That would've been clearer, sure, and a lot easier. But it sort of felt wrong, if you get me. I believe there's a little bit of Her left in the It, but in my imagination, she's directly comparable to the Mouth of Sauron (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie/mouth_of_sauron2.jpg), for example. She surrendered herself to become a vessel for greater powers, and her exact physicality depends entirely on their whim. EDIT: I should add, Ingethel will absolutely be showing up more in the series, so it's a theme I'll develop more as time passes. I'm quite keen on it. /end pretentious toolbaggery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2685417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Cool. Cheers for that ADB Its more useful than you think ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224267-ingethel-the-ascended/#findComment-2686393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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