Boltergeist Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I'd like some interpretations of how Rage movement works-- when you get down to it the wording is somewhat vague. The rule states (colors added for reference) a unit with Rage moves as quickly as possible toward the closest visible enemy. The rule says unit, not model, and enemy, not enemy unit or enemy model... leading to ambiguity. It makes the most sense to me to move the closest model the full 6" (barring difficult terrain, etc) towards the closest enemy model, and then move the rest of the unit however they want as long as they end in coherency. The unit will have moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy. Is this correct? Otherwise, if you interpret it as model vs model you'd have DC in a big bunch around the closest guy in an enemy unit, which seems silly. What about a situation where a group of DC are lined up and a vehicle pulls up 1" away from a model on one end. As the unit is already 1" away and can get no closer, are the models on the other end of the line obliged to move toward the vehicle? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 There was a lengthy thread on this a few months back that was closed. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...017&hl=rage In my opinion, RAW wise you are correct. The DC has to move the closest as close as possible and then everyone else just maintains coherency. I don't think this is what was intended but I also don't think the ridiculous scenario of DC having to bunch themselves into one giant pie-plate killing mass is what was intended either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 As you said, the wording is a bit vague. I would prefer players to play this reasonably, i.e. move every model of the unit towards the closest enemy unit/vehicle, without having to bunch them up, and with a bit of leeway in terms of manouvering the rest of the unit, but without such weird manouvers as moving some models of the unit in a completely different direction. Unfortunately, "reasonably" is not allways what you will get from the people you play with. In your specific example, the raging unit already is as close to the vehicle as it can get (it is not allowed to get closer than 1"). I would probably move the models in the back a bit closer just to represent the general "raging", but the unit would otherwise stay in that position. Moving models away from the vehicle so they may get in assault range to the unit you really wanted to assault I would see as "unreasonable". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 As you said, the wording is a bit vague. I would prefer players to play this reasonably, i.e. move every model of the unit towards the closest enemy unit/vehicle, without having to bunch them up, and with a bit of leeway in terms of manouvering the rest of the unit, but without such weird manouvers as moving some models of the unit in a completely different direction. Unfortunately, "reasonably" is not allways what you will get from the people you play with. In your specific example, the raging unit already is as close to the vehicle as it can get (it is not allowed to get closer than 1"). I would probably move the models in the back a bit closer just to represent the general "raging", but the unit would otherwise stay in that position. Moving models away from the vehicle so they may get in assault range to the unit you really wanted to assault I would see as "unreasonable". This completely fits the way I think the rule should be played, but not the way the rule is written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 sorry to butt in on a subject i no nothing about.. but what does the rage rule say about charges.. if you have to move towards the closest unit, it may bring you within charge range of another unit (especially if what boltergeist says is correct about only having to move one model closer). i suppose if you have to charge the closest unit, youd have to spread out in order to get multiple charges Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 sorry to butt in on a subject i no nothing about..but what does the rage rule say about charges.. if you have to move towards the closest unit, it may bring you within charge range of another unit (especially if what boltergeist says is correct about only having to move one model closer). i suppose if you have to charge the closest unit, youd have to spread out in order to get multiple charges Rage does not require charging the closest. Only moving and consolidating (and I think running) towards the closest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 its not all that bad then really? interesting :woot: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boltergeist Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 There was a lengthy thread on this a few months back that was closed. Hmm sorry about that, I ran a search but didn't find it. Thanks for the replies, I agree it's more or less common sense, but I want to have all my info ready in case there is a dispute at a tournament. I do agree that moving one guy to fulfill the rule then moving the rest of them away in the opposite direction is stretching things, but if you are too conservative with it then DC become unusable pretty quick. And yes, Rage requires moving, consolidating, and running towards the closest enemy, but you are not compelled to run or assault, and can shoot or assault any target you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Yea, Rage is not as bad as it seems. It's annoying at times, but not game breaking. If you're close to the enemy lines, you more or less have solid control on your Rage-y unit. If they're out by themselves tho, a savvy opponent can kite them around with a land speeder like it's equipped with a carrot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2681812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheezeFezt Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Sorry for opening up this can of worm. Read the other topic on rage that was closed. Seem that the whole thread revolved around whether the unit rage together or individual models with the unit rage. My question will be different than that. Let's say the unit consists of only one raging model. BRB p 76 Rage In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy. So I move toward the closest visible enemy, staying 1" away from it. Can I then move in circle around it, maintaining the 1" distance at all time, thus end up on "behind" him? For that matter, let's just jump pack straight behind him. This satisfied both requirement, 1) I moved toward the closest enemy & 2) I moved the max possible distance (eg move as fast as possible). The other interpretation: draw a line between the center of the raging model and the center of the closest visible enemy, then move along that line, stopping 1" away. The rule just doesn't seem to require this interpretation. The dictionary defines toward as in the direction of. Not in the shortest possible straightline. Am I misreading "towards"? Or would jumping behind the closest visible enemy a valid rage move? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2718976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 If you've gon e beyond the closest visible enmy model, then you have NOT moved as fast as possible towards him - you've overshot him. If there is nothing else going on to affect it, you pretty much have to move straight line towards the enemy, even if it means you end up having to move thru terrain (and end up rolling less than you could have moved if you'd been allowed to move round the terrain). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2719092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 If you've gon e beyond the closest visible enmy model, then you have NOT moved as fast as possible towards him - you've overshot him. If there is nothing else going on to affect it, you pretty much have to move straight line towards the enemy, even if it means you end up having to move thru terrain (and end up rolling less than you could have moved if you'd been allowed to move round the terrain). I agree with this here and just want to add that even if you 'move around' and stay as close as possible to the enemy (1 inch) a part of your move has revolved around not moving as fast as possible towards him, but staying at the same distance. So that part of the movement is illegal according to RAW. Do not forget: The 1 inch distance thing is only at the end of movement, not during it (if i recall correctly, I hate not having my BRB with me) Finally, although I agree that the unit as a whole should move forward, I do not agree with the views that when the closest model is already 1 inch away from the enemy before the move that they only 'logical' thing would be to move the 'tail' of the unit closer as well. There are fluff reasons why the raging unit at the back might run another direction altogether, like spotting their own juicy target. The whole Rage USR just gets a big discussion point once it goes from a 1 model unit to a multi-model one and people put their RAI(WT) ideas in there. I believe the current, oversimplified, description of the USR is solid and has no room for discussion, and is therefore a good rule that follows the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I take all the good the rule brings with the small situation of possible bad and unfluffiness that might occur in a tournament setting. But even a move away from the closest enemy from a few models in the unit can often be explained fluff wise as well is my experience by actually playing them almost every game (something a lot of the people in the earlier discussion simply did not do). My 5 cents and conclusion on the matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2719854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheezeFezt Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I agree with this here and just want to add that even if you 'move around' and stay as close as possible to the enemy (1 inch) a part of your move has revolved around not moving as fast as possible towards him, but staying at the same distance. So that part of the movement is illegal according to RAW. Do not forget: The 1 inch distance thing is only at the end of movement, not during it (if i recall correctly, I hate not having my BRB with me) I'm staying away from the unit raging vs model raging debate. It's not resolvable and got locked. The easy answer first. 1 inch distance is at all time. So you can't squeze through a 1.1" gap and get to the other side if you run fast enough to end more than 1" away. BRB p 11 "model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting." Regard to illegal according to RAW, rage RAW is "toward". It's not straight at. Toward definition is in the direction of. If you want further example of toward is not the same at straight at, read through court reports where cop shot at someone because they were moving toward them even though the preb was moving at an angle to the cop, not straight at him. If you really want to play RAW, rage at an angle to the visible enemy and keep moving past him. You satisfied moving "toward" him. Yes, you overshot him. But that's not illegal. Requirement is rage move as fast as possible and rage move toward closest visible enemy. More example. I point a bolter at you and pull the trigger. Did the bullet move toward you? Yes. Does fact that the bullet move through you and beyond changed the statement the bullet moved toward you? So if you really want to play RAW, one would rage 12" presuming jump pack in the direction of the closest visible enemy. And if that move happens to overshoot him, so what. One moved as fast as possible and one moved in the direction of the closest visible enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2719873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 It does- because now the bullet is not moving towards you but rather away from you. It did not meet the requirements for the entirety of the move... and thus was an illegal move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2719910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 error... If you're not moving directly toward the closest visible enemy model, thats not following the rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2719922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Do not forget: The 1 inch distance thing is only at the end of movement, not during it (if i recall correctly, I hate not having my BRB with me) The easy answer first. 1 inch distance is at all time. So you can't squeze through a 1.1" gap and get to the other side if you run fast enough to end more than 1" away. BRB p 11 "model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting." Alright, thanks about that.. I wasn't entirely sure about it. Thanks for coming with the BRB quote. Sorry for misinformation there! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2719976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Here we are again with units that have a special ability being nerfed by the player to try to negate it, thusly trying to act more smurfy! If you want to have simple, non-FNP, non-rage, non-preferred units, play the codex I use.... Rage is an important attribute of some BA units. Embrace the rage! Live with the rage! Channel the rage into something destructive! Stop trying to get the rage into meaningless control! If a player "unleashes" his death co, for example, at a location where they can be baited and led away from the main assault, then SHAME on the player, and he should be punished for doing it. KUDOS for the player who led them away! That is called taking advantage of a tactical blunder. (Not to mention some armies may still have leaders who can mitigate the effects of rage while they are around the mad unit. If that is part of your tactics, then you have to use those tools) Death company are supposed to be delivered in some fashion - deep strike, or disembark, close to (within) the enemy lines. Failure to use the unit as intended can have negative consequences for the owning player. Walking them across the open field has its consequences! Rage, Rage Against the Dying of the Light.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224279-rage-usr-movement-clarification/#findComment-2720333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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