Why are wolves so hated by Razor spam?

[xxvaderxx]

Hi i was running some numbers the other day, and i was wandering, why all the hate towards wolves razor spam when BA make it so much better?.

 

6 Hunters with flamer in lasplas = 165

 

6 Assault marines With Flamer in Lasplas = 178

 

Those 13 extra points get you, a wolf guard, fast vehicle so it can shot both its weapons every turn, and the option to combine them with a nearby priest to have multiple squads with FC and FNP.

 

So, say you run them in teams of 2 or 3 with a priest inside one of the vehicles so all 15 marines get FNP and FC. You get a hell of a lot more fire power and much better troops, so why all the wolf hate?.

[MaveriK]

Me thinks you just answered your own questions! LOL and people will always hate on anything new and better until something new, versatile with cheaper points and such comes along! ohh and not to mention if they are losing. But IMHO I like keeping my Hunters on larger packs. Their stronger when larger, the added fire power from a razor is nice, but for me... It's all about the bejamins son!

[Decoy]

I can't speak for any other member of the Fang, but I run my Razorspam with full squads of 11. The Razors serve as nothing more than firemagnets/extra firepower, while my Hunters (Or Wolf Guard) run rampant.

 

That, and Wolves can throw Wolf Guard and Long Fangs in razors, too. I'm fairly certain that sets our Razor number at 12, which is a LOT of razorbacks.

 

ON EDIT: I have a gag-army where everything has Combiflamers or Flamers, and every Razorback has Heavy Flamers. Something like close to a hundred Flamer templates. While it's not Razorspam per se, it certainly makes people run in fear. ^_^

[Skarvald the Troll-faced]

The fact that we have Long Fangs to add to the list AND their razorbacks. They are cheaper, more efficient, because with three squads you threaten 6 units.

Blood Angel Assault Marines have a bolt pistol and a CCW. They do NOT have a bolter/bolt gun. Grey Hunters do.

Also, scrap the flamer. Melta gun is what you need.

 

While the FNP bubble in nice, it is very situational. With all the running around and trying to move every turn it is very hard to always be in range of the Sanguinary Priest dudemen. Notice how if you face any kind of Razorback Spam list, the FNP will be useless as you'll be facing 15+ missiles a turn and the Plasma on each Rhino.

 

See also we have Rune Priests that have an unlimited range d6 S7 shot or a 5+ cover save to give to our vehicles.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

C:SM

 

181

6 tacs in a las/plas razorback

 

no special weapon option

no furious charge/FNP bubbles

no counterattack

no acute senses

no fast vehicle

no ccw

 

I think this is more likely why people dislike SW razor spam.

[ChainsawDR]

I love using 5 grey hunters with melta, with a WG, PF & Combi melta in a LasPlas Razor - my thinking is why have one big unit when you can have two smaller ones that work as a pair?

 

With two small units you get an extra WG, extra cheap PF and Combi-Melta?

 

It's two targets rather than one - requires two enemy squads to destroy them both.

 

If needed at the end they can be split up to hold multiple objectives.

[xxvaderxx]

C:SM

 

181

6 tacs in a las/plas razorback

 

no special weapon option

no furious charge/FNP bubbles

no counterattack

no acute senses

no fast vehicle

no ccw

 

I think this is more likely why people dislike SW razor spam.

 

Yeah, they hate sw spam, but my point is that ba spam is better and no one seems to have noticed.

[DV8]

Yeah, they hate sw spam, but my point is that ba spam is better and no one seems to have noticed.

 

I assure you that players have noticed that, superficially, Blood Angels spam seems more effective. But what you fail to realize is that Codex Space Wolves and Codex Blood Angels operate very differently from each other, and you can't simply compare them on a squad to squad level. Both of them can do Razorspam effectively; they simply do them in very different manners.

 

EDIT:

 

And for the record, any competent player who plays an effective Razorspam army knows that squads inside should be bare minimum, to increase available points for other things (like more Razorbacks!)

 

5 Grey Hunters: 155 pts

- Meltagun, Las-Plas Razorback

 

5 Assault Marines: 160 pts

- Meltagun, Las-Plas Razorback

 

Meltaguns can be swapped for Flamers, but the points difference would still remain the same.

 

Blood Angels benefit from a Fast Razorback, so their vehicle is more mobile and more effective, for a marginal increase in points. With the Red Thirst/Black Rage, the unit also has a 1/6 chance of being Fearless and having Furious Charge without needing a Priest around. Lastly, the Assault Squad has a Veteran Sergeant incorporated into the cost, giving them Leadership 9.

 

Space Wolves have a less mobile Razorback, but the infantry are far better, with Bolters to deal with infantry; however with Bolt Pistols, Chainswords, and Counter-Attack, the Grey Hunters put out equivalent attacks as the Assault Marines.

 

 

DV8

[Blarmb]

I can't speak for any other member of the Fang, but I run my Razorspam with full squads of 11. The Razors serve as nothing more than firemagnets/extra firepower, while my Hunters (Or Wolf Guard) run rampant.

 

Have you had much success with this approach? It's something I've wanted to try, but I've always feared the exposure to low AP & limited mobility.

[Decoy]

I've not had an issue with it honestly, Blarmb. I don't ever use squads for objective-taking; the Razors are only there for last-turn or second-to-last turn transport if I absolutely -have- to contest a point. My entire gameplan revolves around the following strategic mindset: Annihilation is always a victory condition. Hence, I try for the wipeout and almost always have the enemy tabled by turn 4 or 5, leaving me to never worry about Objectives.

[TrentL]

Yeah, they hate sw spam, but my point is that ba spam is better and no one seems to have noticed.

 

BA might spam better but the contents aren't as good... GH's are pound for pound the best troop choice that SM have, they can sit down and lay some heavy mid-range fire down with rapid fire bolters. And when charged they draw their CCW and counter-charge. So really they don't care if you come at them or not.

 

I think thats one major favor the SW. But as for as the Razor's themselves, BA and Fast Razors for sure.

 

One thing I have yet to see... is BA players finishing high in Tourny's its pretty much all SW and Guard from where I play.. and people tend not to like the guys at the top.

[Decoy]

Yeah, they hate sw spam, but my point is that ba spam is better and no one seems to have noticed.

 

 

Eh. BA can do it better on paper, Wolves do it better in practice. BA need support characters to pull theirs off; we don't, pure and simple. Our Spam isn't contingent on having a Priest or what have you, we can stand on our own. The BA need additional factors to turn the tide in their favor, and if they lose those factors for one reason or another, BA are largely ineffectual.

[the jeske]

Hi i was running some numbers the other day, and i was wandering, why all the hate towards wolves razor spam when BA make it so much better?.

because of LF , because RP are better support for razor spams [better psychic powers for a build like that for the SW players, LL , thunder , jaws even storm help a lot more then the BA powers and both armies always use at least one psyker]

 

there is also small things like bolters on GH [and slogger builds or tied armies are razorspams worse nightmare] or the fact that while not cheaper SW get just as good but more resilient counter units [TWC] .

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Hi i was running some numbers the other day, and i was wandering, why all the hate towards wolves razor spam when BA make it so much better?.

because of LF , because RP are better support for razor spams [better psychic powers for a build like that for the SW players, LL , thunder , jaws even storm help a lot more then the BA powers and both armies always use at least one psyker]

 

there is also small things like bolters on GH [and slogger builds or tied armies are razorspams worse nightmare] or the fact that while not cheaper SW get just as good but more resilient counter units [TWC] .

 

I agree. It is not what is similar that is the issue -> Wolves and Bloods both have quality in their Razors+squad.

 

Fangs really cement an already solid army as a great one. Imagine if you had to pay Ultramarine Devastator price for their Heavy weapons....

 

And then the Witches. LL contributes to an already up-gunned Dex, and things like JotWW really undo Monstrous Creatures, etc.

 

This is why, if a Wolf player is frustrated about guys not wanting to play him, I encourage them to go easy on TWC, Greys, Fangs and Rune Priests.

Use:

a] Blood claws + Land raiders, Swiftclaws

b] Blood Claws

c] Speeder Typhoons, Autolas Preds and Rifleman Dreads

 

You don't have to completely go without the premier units, just perhaps swap out every second one, etc. We all know these units are not as good, which is why everyone says take the premier ones. Detuning your list can have upsides to it.

 

i] Your gaming buddies are less sour about it. Should the complain? Maybe not. But if no one wants to play you because your club isn't that competitive, then sometimes you have to bend.

ii] You grow in skill. If your units are less able, you have to become more able. Think of it as resistance training for your brain ;)

 

:)

[xxvaderxx]

I would agree that LF are better heavy cheaper support, but i dont quite consider GH (with this particular set up, meaning 5-6 guys naked with a melta/flamer), better than FNP+FC assault marines. Bolters dont kill much in this game, 5 extra shots dont do much, and BA razors are simply way superior, in fact i think that their higher volume of fire more than makes up for those 5 bolter shots.

[the jeske]

but i dont quite consider GH (with this particular set up, meaning 5-6 guys naked with a melta/flamer), better than FNP+FC assault marines

I can explain why that is better. First against all mecha hth armies if you try to get closer your screwed and a FNP priest buffs mostly hth situations . A BA ras with or without priest does nothing at over 12" range[ or shots a single plas if it takes a plasmagun] a GH unit has bolters . Now your going to say ut what do 4 bolters do ? well first of all they do more then 4 bolt pistols , second of all there are not 4 bolters but 12 or 16 as your not runing a single razor squad of GH.

this helps against hordes . I did mention the counter attack a GK unit attacked will or at least has more chance to do more wounds , so even if they die next turn there will be less to kill[and GH will be able to double tap and are not forced to charge like BAs are] .

 

As hth goes . A razor build is not a hth army , trying to drive up and use a flamer or a single melta[33%chance to miss] is not a good thing to do . neither the melta and specialy not a single flamer will do enough dmg what ever it is a horde or meq army . But BAs have no options outside of hth , they are practicly forced to charge those armies. Because if they dont they pay 160 pts for a melta gun. [that is without a priest]

 

 

as the higher volume of fire goes. a sw can double tap , a BA can not [unless he takes tacs but then he may as well take the sm dex and build a razor build with those and it will be better] . SW will have better support units [LF. LL on priests etc] so am kind of a missing how you get the more shotieness from BAs.

[Gerwulf]

Yes, the GH certainly have more short ranged firepower than the BA ASM.

 

But what I don't really get is how the RB spam should work well for SW.

 

Either they hang back and shoot both the lascannon and the plasma gun (which is probably out of range).

Or they drive up a very slow 6" and shoot their Lascannon (which defies the purpose of having a transport and the short ranges GH inside).

Or they drive up the full 12" but then the heavy weapon is wasted.

 

The BA, on the other hand, can drive up a good 12", while still firing their weapons, or they go flat out and move 18" right up to the opponent.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Basically you are firing the LC on T1.

If he has moved within 24" of the Razors, you can Pg as well.

But basically this is not quite right.

 

The Razor spam list is not a Rush 'em list, like Berzerkers in Rhinos.

It does more faffing around. You take your time. 'I want to be within 12" of the Objectives by the end of T4 and so I meter my steps so I get there by then'

 

Rolling 6" a turn is what you do.

If Orks are within 24" by T1 [with Battlewagons] then you have deployed too close to begin with. Or he has seized the initiative :pinch:

If Nid MCs are within 24" and not able to assault next turn [ie, not within 12 or 18" depending on them having wings, etc] then you can park the Razor and pewpew the Pg too.

 

The Blood Angels can haul around much more like a Mongol Horse Archer army, and tl AC work better on them due to being fast. Them being fast keeps them out of harms way, generally....

This is why Wolves benefit from a TWC reserve. When a section of your list fails, you have some heavy hitters who can rescue them quickly.

 

Also, Fangs and Whirlwinds help with anti-horde jobs, as lasplas Razors don't kill grunts as well as ACs do.

 

Razorspam works well enough for Ultras, and with Greys > Tacs, it should work even better ;)

[Gerwulf]

So I read that the GH pack should be kept to a minimun. So no WG with combiweapon and PFs, or any other bling on the GH other than a Melta?

 

basically, as many 6 man squads with meltas in lasplas RBs with lots of Long Fangs with ML in the same?

 

What would you take for HQ? Runepriests for added firepower?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So I read that the GH pack should be kept to a minimun. So no WG with combiweapon and PFs, or any other bling on the GH other than a Melta?

 

basically, as many 6 man squads with meltas in lasplas RBs with lots of Long Fangs with ML in the same?

 

What would you take for HQ? Runepriests for added firepower?

 

Rune priests are some off the best HQs in the game, and perhaps the best in C:SW. The only thing that competes is the ThunderLord, but he costs muchly.

 

The Priest can attach to the Fangs or join a squad of Greys who ride in a Rhino. He Fzzaps out of the hatch.

 

But you can also take the ThunderLord and he joins, or is, the emergency rescue department to bail out endangered Greys.

[Grey Mage]

Hi i was running some numbers the other day, and i was wandering, why all the hate towards wolves razor spam when BA make it so much better?.

 

6 Hunters with flamer in lasplas = 165

 

6 Assault marines With Flamer in Lasplas = 178

 

Those 13 extra points get you, a wolf guard, fast vehicle so it can shot both its weapons every turn, and the option to combine them with a nearby priest to have multiple squads with FC and FNP.

 

So, say you run them in teams of 2 or 3 with a priest inside one of the vehicles so all 15 marines get FNP and FC. You get a hell of a lot more fire power and much better troops, so why all the wolf hate?.

So... for 13pts you get bolters on everyone, counter-attack instead of the red thirst.... and have more upgrade options?

 

Yeah, thats why.

 

Of course, its all silly- razorspam is a horrible army concept, and I have no idea how its successful in any competitive environment.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So... for 13pts you get bolters on everyone, counter-attack instead of the red thirst.... and have more upgrade options?

 

Yeah, thats why.

 

Of course, its all silly- razorspam is a horrible army concept, and I have no idea how its successful in any competitive environment.

 

Why is it horrible?

 

Basically, you are turning the Wolves into a mobile-ish shooty force.

 

a] You are bringing more HW guns than if you were in Rhinos.

b] You are saturating [that is the idea, anyway] your foe's ability to deal with APCs as you have 'too much' for him to deal with on any given turn, rendering small arms ineffective and giving him too much for his las cannons, missile launchers, auto cannons and plasma guns to deal with.

c] You are not giving him anything 'worth' shooting with his MELTA weapons - ie, no juicy 250+ pt Raiders, etc.

d] You are compartmentalising the damage you take.

8 kills on 10 Greys is harsh. 8 kills on 5 Greys is a waste and good for the Wolf player.

e] Though not different from Rhino-spam, it prevents things from assaulting your Greys. Sure a Dreadnought is going to pulp the APC, but that is less bad than a 5 man pack getting hit [or a 10 man, for the Rhino-spam]. Your vehicle doesn't get locked in combat, meaning you can tootle away and pewpew as you do so.

 

You are running MSU. Generally, MSU > few big units. Generally.

 

You are then combining that MSU with Mech. Generally, Mech > Foot.

 

You are then combining that Mech MSU with Heavy weapons for each of those squads. More heavy pewpew = profit ;)

 

I am not saying it is the be all, but those are its strengths and why it does well. Anything can be rock-scissored though. But will that cost them against other tourney-worthy lists...?

 

It prevents Horse archer armies from leaving you out of reach. Tau, Deldar and perhaps Mechdar.

It gives you added pewpew against shooty lists. Guard, Tau, Marines.

It stops Rush 'em armies from locking your men up in mêlée.

It allows you to keep up a good rate of fire against Monstrous Creature whilst not having to stand still.

 

+++

 

Anyway, welcome back from your Djemma. Did you find what you were hunting?

:)

[Skarvald the Troll-faced]

It is dumb, because you're playing Space Wolves like pansies hiding in metal boxes. You do not engage the enemy, you just run circles around it and try to avoid any close combat with your small squads.

You're basically playing Guard, but you only have 1 type of vehicle. Yeah, it might be effective, but Space Wolves would never go to battle all hiding in Razorbacks.

 

I've faced Razorback spam lists with my balanced Space Wolves list and I crush them every single time without a problem. I just don't get why people are being so boring, uncreative and spammy with their lists. If I wanted to pay $300+ just for vehicles I'd just play Guard.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I don't know. Compared to my three ten-man squads of Grey Hunters with the attached Razorback, two Long Fangs packs, one, and only one, Vindicator, Thunderwolves, and some scouts, MSU dies a lot. A very large amount of lot. My shooting is such so that my Lascannons on the Razorbacks, due to their twin-linkedness(Insanity! Where are the LC+TLPG combos? Read on, dear reader, read on.), as well as the Lascannons and missiles in my Long Fang packs can Immobilise/Wreck the transports of MSU units, making them vulnerable to Wolf Scout with Melta Bombs. Meanwhile, the Plasma Cannons in my Long Fangs packs and the spare Missile Launchers can shoot anyone who was knocked out of the transport last turn. If they get close, and this is why mine is actually better than a Las/Plasback, my Grey Hunters can shoot them with the two plasma guns in the squad, and since I don't have to worry about being charged due to counterattack, I can keep up a steady rate of fire. So simply looking at my Razorbacks and Grey Hunters, I've got a permanent 4+ save on the Razorbacks, as well as bubblewrap against assaults, I have more firepower, as one TLLC and two infantry carried, so not affected significantly by movement, plasma guns are better than a TLPG and a Lascannon. I fail to see any disadvantages that I have that MSU doesn't. Except ease of movement. MSU essentially cosists of around nine models at most if you use BA. Did I mention that I don't have to worry about the lack of fire points on a Razorback?

[Grey Mage]

b] You are saturating [that is the idea, anyway] your foe's ability to deal with APCs as you have 'too much' for him to deal with on any given turn, rendering small arms ineffective and giving him too much for his las cannons, missile launchers, auto cannons and plasma guns to deal with.

In this, the age of mech, are there really people who cant stunlock 5 or 6 transports in a single turn?

 

Orks? Daemons? And.... yeah, not even all orks will have that problem.

 

Making incredibly expensive AV 11 transports the lynchpin of your plan is not a good idea. If you want a good deal of mobile firepower, thats what attack bikes and landspeeders were made for.

 

Ive yet to see a solid razorspam list that wasnt an understaffed footslogging list by the end of turn 3. Funnily enough, small arms are usually not of a whole lot of use turns 1 and 2 unless someone is really aggressive- they dont have the range. So your denying them the use of something they already dont get use out of eh?

 

But hey, maybe theyre just not doing it right. In my area the razorspam lists that appeared and got wiped into obsolescence a year ago, and tried again with the new BA book, were 5-6 units in razorbacks, costing about 190pts each, an HQ, and usually a couple of heavy tanks- predators, vindicators, or maybe a raider with an assault unit backed up up by some MM attack bikes. Usually turn one the bikes get popped if they didnt take out their target, maybe if they did and long range fire stuns or destroys 4 of the 5 light transports. They keep taking out those until they die, and then assault whatevers in the raider.