Why are wolves so hated by Razor spam?

[LoneSniperSG]

It is dumb, because you're playing Space Wolves like pansies hiding in metal boxes. You do not engage the enemy, you just run circles around it and try to avoid any close combat with your small squads.

You're basically playing Guard, but you only have 1 type of vehicle. Yeah, it might be effective, but Space Wolves would never go to battle all hiding in Razorbacks.

 

I've faced Razorback spam lists with my balanced Space Wolves list and I crush them every single time without a problem. I just don't get why people are being so boring, uncreative and spammy with their lists. If I wanted to pay $300+ just for vehicles I'd just play Guard.

 

I agree with you, but not for the same reasons. The difference between a Razorback and a Chimera is four fire points. MechGuard are annoying because of the firepower they can spam from their Chimeras. Not so much with Razorbacks. If anyone is spamming Razorbacks, then there's ALL KINDS of Heavy bolters to keep them all cheap.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It is dumb, because you're playing Space Wolves like pansies hiding in metal boxes. You do not engage the enemy, you just run circles around it and try to avoid any close combat with your small squads.

You're basically playing Guard, but you only have 1 type of vehicle. Yeah, it might be effective, but Space Wolves would never go to battle all hiding in Razorbacks.

 

I've faced Razorback spam lists with my balanced Space Wolves list and I crush them every single time without a problem. I just don't get why people are being so boring, uncreative and spammy with their lists. If I wanted to pay $300+ just for vehicles I'd just play Guard.

 

Metal bawkses?!

The cowards! The fools!

 

Just because it doesn't fit how you think of the Wolves, doesn't mean it is dumb :cuss

 

Also, you might just be plain old better than the guy you are playing. Swap lists and see how it goes. Even then, your foe might just be bad with Razorspam. That doesn't mean he can't do better with something else or that Razorspam is not good.

 

Do you catch my drift?

 

Also, Marines are more fun than Guard :cuss

 

I don't know. Compared to my three ten-man squads of Grey Hunters with the attached Razorback, two Long Fangs packs, one, and only one, Vindicator, Thunderwolves, and some scouts, MSU dies a lot. A very large amount of lot. My shooting is such so that my Lascannons on the Razorbacks, due to their twin-linkedness(Insanity! Where are the LC+TLPG combos? Read on, dear reader, read on.), as well as the Lascannons and missiles in my Long Fang packs can Immobilise/Wreck the transports of MSU units, making them vulnerable to Wolf Scout with Melta Bombs. Meanwhile, the Plasma Cannons in my Long Fangs packs and the spare Missile Launchers can shoot anyone who was knocked out of the transport last turn. If they get close, and this is why mine is actually better than a Las/Plasback, my Grey Hunters can shoot them with the two plasma guns in the squad, and since I don't have to worry about being charged due to counterattack, I can keep up a steady rate of fire. So simply looking at my Razorbacks and Grey Hunters, I've got a permanent 4+ save on the Razorbacks, as well as bubblewrap against assaults, I have more firepower, as one TLLC and two infantry carried, so not affected significantly by movement, plasma guns are better than a TLPG and a Lascannon. I fail to see any disadvantages that I have that MSU doesn't. Except ease of movement. MSU essentially cosists of around nine models at most if you use BA. Did I mention that I don't have to worry about the lack of fire points on a Razorback?

 

It is great that you are doing well with your list, don't get me wrong. This isn't supposed to be an attack on you or Skarvald at all. Just a dissection of it, hopefully helpful.

But it sounds like your army is kicking all the goals whilst his is made up of bad guy goons.

 

His Fangs will blow up your APCs even quicker than you will his, on average. You have less, so yours will die quicker.

 

MSU should not be dying quicker than few big units. MSU results in overkill, meaning wasted kills. FBU get overkilled much less often.

He is, ideally, still bringing 20 men against those 30 Guardsmen as you are. But when the Guard shoot back, the 14 casualties will only be in 2 units and so only 10 die. All 14 die when you have FBU.

 

Why are your Scouts near his APCs? Why has he deployed within 12" of an edge? Would you deploy within 12" of an edge if your foe was bringing Scouts?

As soon as they turn up, he can give them attention from a few units.

This let's him a] move away from your incoming main force and b] now deal with what was an un-determinable threat, kill it, and now move into the newly safe 12" zone around the table edge.

 

The 2Pg+Rhino cannot engage units from 48" away.

If it wants to shoot 24", it cannot move. The LasPlas can move 6" and touch anything 48" away.

54" > 24"

 

The 2Pg+Rhino is good at rolling 6" and giving 4 shots, no doubt about it.

But the LasPlas never has men that die from the Pg. It can also move 6" and shoot > 12"

If the 2Pg+Rhino sits still and puts out 2 24" shots, that is matched [bettered?] by a LC and tlPg shot from the Razor.

 

Why do you have a permanent 4+ save on the Razors?

 

I don't think you have more firepower. Perhaps at the move 6" shoot 4 shots at 12" range. But he has had since T1 to stop your Rhino from moving. You might never be able to get into that sweet spot in the first place....

 

Razorspam has more guns in the list. It also compartmentalises the damage.

That is the strengths it has.

Its weakness is being less effective in mêlée. Against some foes, that weakness is not an issue, whilst the strengths are an issue.

Tau and some Guard builds don't care how smooshy you beat their face in. Only a little bit dead is the same as total pwnage²

More big guns helps to de-mech him and deal with Suits and Broadsides from the get go.

 

I am not saying Razorspam is "the it" army for Wolves.

 

What I am trying to say is that it is just as able as any other list, but has its own peculiar style of play, just as all builds have their own way. Don't let "it isn't fluffy" [or what you think is fluffy] fool you into thinking it is not a valid army on the table.

 

+++

 

What do you think?

[the jeske]

In this, the age of mech, are there really people who cant stunlock 5 or 6 transports in a single turn?

other then IG and SW and other razor builds? or are we talking about more then 150 here?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

b] You are saturating [that is the idea, anyway] your foe's ability to deal with APCs as you have 'too much' for him to deal with on any given turn, rendering small arms ineffective and giving him too much for his las cannons, missile launchers, auto cannons and plasma guns to deal with.

In this, the age of mech, are there really people who cant stunlock 5 or 6 transports in a single turn?

 

Orks? Daemons? And.... yeah, not even all orks will have that problem.

 

Making incredibly expensive AV 11 transports the lynchpin of your plan is not a good idea. If you want a good deal of mobile firepower, thats what attack bikes and landspeeders were made for.

 

Ive yet to see a solid razorspam list that wasnt an understaffed footslogging list by the end of turn 3. Funnily enough, small arms are usually not of a whole lot of use turns 1 and 2 unless someone is really aggressive- they dont have the range. So your denying them the use of something they already dont get use out of eh?

 

But hey, maybe theyre just not doing it right. In my area the razorspam lists that appeared and got wiped into obsolescence a year ago, and tried again with the new BA book, were 5-6 units in razorbacks, costing about 190pts each, an HQ, and usually a couple of heavy tanks- predators, vindicators, or maybe a raider with an assault unit backed up up by some MM attack bikes. Usually turn one the bikes get popped if they didnt take out their target, maybe if they did and long range fire stuns or destroys 4 of the 5 light transports. They keep taking out those until they die, and then assault whatevers in the raider.

 

This might just be a personal preference thing, so we'll just go in circles :P

But hopefully our circles are elliptical and we go somewhere :D

 

Why not take Razors AND Speeders? Have more than the 5 or 6.

 

And if your foe is able to stunlock 5 or 6 tranports, why wouldn't he be able to do it even more so against your FBU [few big units] of Rhinos? Perhaps some results will be redundant - ie, 6 stuns on 6 vehicles is better than on 3 vehicles, but immobes, weapon destroys will also tally up. Plus, only three destroys are needed to de-mech the FBU, etc.

 

It should be easier to get your 3 FBU out of their APCs and start shooting into meaningful sized units than with the MSU, with regards to small arms fire.

 

'Do I shoot the Tacs [or any other squad with mixed guns] into the surviving Razors or the passengers?'

Against FBU, he just starts on the passengers.

Also, the surviving Razors can screen the de-meched passengers if it is advantageous to do so. The FBU are out of luck and out of their rides. Plus they are a more choice target. Harder to get into cover [though not 'impossible' for sure], harder to get out of TLoS and never wasting kills from enemy shooting.

 

I am not trying to say you and your club is doing it wrong, just trying to figure it all out :P

:)

 

If they are de-meching the Razors so easily, why aren't they also doing this to the FBU and getting into the passengers with those anti-APC guns, whilst the Greys are just as far away [and therefore out of arms reach] as with the MSU army?

Less transport should just mean out of transports sooner. Now the Marines have to trek whilst getting picked off, perhaps being whittled down to 6 remaining anyway?

 

Thoughts?

[DV8]

I am with Marshal Wilhelm on this one. Razorspam works for the same simple reason that Guard Leafblower works: saturating the field and overwhelming the enemy firepower with so much armor that they simply can't deal with it effectively. At that point the dilution of enemy firepower is guaranteed - put more shots to kill a few vehicles (leaving many more alive), or spreading the shots out (thus mitigating the chances of any one vehicle dying and thus leaving many more alive). At the same time you pour your own firepower into the enemy and "blow" them off the field.

 

The problem that many people have with building effective Razorspam lists is that, far too often, they spend WAY more points than they should, in an attempt to make up for or "bolster" the infantry aspect "just in case" the vehicles are destroyed (things like Priests, Power Weapons/Fists, etc.)

 

To play effective Razorspam, you need to take the same mentality as a Guard Leafblower list: forget the infantry! The only reason to have them is to field more vehicles, and on occasion objective-score. Otherwise, as few points as possible should be spent on the infantry in favor of more vehicles.

 

As an example: 5 Grey Hunters in a Razorback is only 115 points. 6 of those to max out your troop choices is only 690 points, already netting you 30 Space Marines and 6 vehicles; plenty of room for MM Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, Predators, or more Razorbacks! etc. As an exercise: (this is by no means the most "effective" list, but it illustrates just what you can fit in for a Razorspam list with Space Wolves)

 

HQ // Rune Priest: 100 pts

- Stormcaller, Jaws of the World Wolf

 

Elites // 3 Wolf Guard: 94 pts

- Razorback

 

Elites // 3 Wolf Guard: 94 pts

- Razorback

 

Elites // 3 Wolf Guard: 94 pts

- Razorback

 

Troops // 5 Grey Hunters: 150 pts

- Flamer, Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Plasma Gun

 

Troops // 5 Grey Hunters: 150 pts

- Flamer, Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Plasma Gun

 

Troops // 5 Grey Hunters: 150 pts

- Flamer, Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Plasma Gun

 

Troops // 5 Grey Hunters: 150 pts

- Flamer, Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Plasma Gun

 

Troops // 5 Grey Hunters: 150 pts

- Flamer, Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Plasma Gun

 

Troops // 5 Grey Hunters: 150 pts

- Flamer, Razorback with Lascannon and Twin-Plasma Gun

 

Heavy Support // 5 Long Fangs: 155 pts

- 4 Missile Launchers, Razorback

 

Heavy Support // 5 Long Fangs: 155 pts

- 4 Missile Launchers, Razorback

 

Heavy Support // 5 Long Fangs: 155 pts

- 4 Missile Launchers, Razorback

 

Total: 1747 points

 

 

DV8

[Grey Mage]

If they are de-meching the Razors so easily, why aren't they also doing this to the FBU and getting into the passengers with those anti-APC guns, whilst the Greys are just as far away [and therefore out of arms reach] as with the MSU army?

Less transport should just mean out of transports sooner. Now the Marines have to trek whilst getting picked off, perhaps being whittled down to 6 remaining anyway?

 

Thoughts?

Part of it is the de-meching, but part of what I mean by 'stunlock' is simply the inability to fire. Any glancing hit does this, and then youve lost half the point of the razorback. Immobilized is just as much of a paint for a razorback, because your smaller fragile squad will have a harder time delivering enough for to the desired location to be any use- this is even worse for BA, who end up armed with only BP+CCW, losing any real ranged threat. Weapon destroyed is also far more problematic, as you paid a great deal in the way of points for that single gun, and gave up alot in bodies and space for it besides.

 

But mostly its that 200pts is alot for 5 marines and a transport, big gun or no. People who invest in other things with either 1) more armor or 2) more firepower tend to win out alot. For about 30pts more than the price of a TLLC razorback squad I can get a full 10 man squad in a rhino- itll survive longer because of more wounds, and have more offensive power from the basic marines.

 

Or I could invest the same amount into long fangs and have more long-ranged firepower for cheaper and have the ability to access a razorback or two for them if I wanted to.

 

Landspeeders, as noted, provide more firepower for cheaper- and are faster.

 

So, if I take approximately 650pts in 30 Grey Hunters, 350pts in typhoons, and 300pts in long fangs I will have more bodies on the board and more firepower on the board than the guy who took 6 units of GHs in razorbacks. Ill also have more durability, and just as much speed.

 

Maybe it opens up at 1850 where you can afford to fool around with that kind of thing, but at 1500pts it just doesnt work. Small squads die quickly, wich makes them a liability in KP games and less capable in objective games. Sure, you have more targets to fight through, but they go down- to use a local term- faster than chucks mom. Wether the transport is dead or merely gutted, the game starts going downhill quickly because the damage piles up fast.

 

Some races can get away with it- gaurdsmen are only 5pts a peice, eldar and tau have amazing tech to protect their transports, etc. So far, in my experiance, marines lack the ability to get the squads cheap enough or make them survivable enough to be worth it.

 

DV8s list looks a bit more competitive than most Ive seen, but compare it to a gaurd mech list and I see it losing out on firepower and target saturation, though its got about 20% more firepower than alot of the lists we saw around here because 1) hes invested more into long fangs and 2) as he noted, hes not put much on his infantry.

 

The three guys around here were throwing down this as their 'basic' GH squad:

5 GHs in a Razorback with TLPG and LC, armed with a Powerfist, mark of the wulfen and Flamer- 190pts.

 

The BA players tended to go:

5 Assault Marines in a Razorback with AC or TLPG/LC with a Powerfist, Meltagun, and Combi-melta. Then theyd randomly sprinkle a couple priests in, wich added about 70pts to 2 or 3 squads.

[Grimtooth]

I despise Razorspam lists of any chapter. The mentality of almost every player I have had to face with MSU is to use all the small units to over saturate OBJECTIVES, not firepower or anything else. They want enough troops to plop down on objectives so they can live long enough to finish out the game and still win.

 

That is my main problem with Razorspam, it just plays to the competitive meta game and the tournament mission structure. When you have tournament organizers that start throwing in non-normal missions, it throws them all off kilter which in my opinion makes it not a viable list.

 

I will stick with my theories of full Grey Hunter redundancy builds working in conjunction with a hardened infantry unit and my thunderlord; all supported by Long Fang fire support.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

This may take a tad.

 

His Fangs will blow up your APCs even quicker than you will his, on average. You have less, so yours will die quicker.

 

But my APCs are not essential to my strategy. Also, once I knock his squads out of the boxes, they are doomed. Meanwhile, my squads are designed to be outside of boxes. Again, unlike many lists, transports are meaningless to me.

 

MSU should not be dying quicker than few big units. MSU results in overkill, meaning wasted kills. FBU get overkilled much less often.

He is, ideally, still bringing 20 men against those 30 Guardsmen as you are. But when the Guard shoot back, the 14 casualties will only be in 2 units and so only 10 die. All 14 die when you have FBU.

 

However, just as he can, my Long Fangs can split fire, and the other tank hunting units I have are all single or two weapons designed to kill tank. Overkill isn't a problem.

 

Why are your Scouts near his APCs? Why has he deployed within 12" of an edge? Would you deploy within 12" of an edge if your foe was bringing Scouts?

As soon as they turn up, he can give them attention from a few units.

This let's him a] move away from your incoming main force and b] now deal with what was an un-determinable threat, kill it, and now move into the newly safe 12" zone around the table edge.

 

So far, my experience has not been thus, mainly due to the fact that my main force is in the center, covering the four feet in between with ease. A loss of 24 in. is a major impact. It almost feels like a return to fourth edition. ^_^

 

The 2Pg+Rhino cannot engage units from 48" away.

If it wants to shoot 24", it cannot move. The LasPlas can move 6" and touch anything 48" away.

54" > 24"

 

Ah, but my Hunters are not in Rhinos. Instead, they simply buy Razorbacks as transports and use them as gun platforms. HK missiles and the turret weapons is quite an effective combination. Plus, if I lose four Hunters, they can jump inside and run away. ;)

 

The 2Pg+Rhino is good at rolling 6" and giving 4 shots, no doubt about it.

But the LasPlas never has men that die from the Pg. It can also move 6" and shoot > 12"

If the 2Pg+Rhino sits still and puts out 2 24" shots, that is matched [bettered?] by a LC and tlPg shot from the Razor.

 

See the above.

 

Why do you have a permanent 4+ save on the Razors?

 

My Hunters are sitting in front of them.

 

I don't think you have more firepower. Perhaps at the move 6" shoot 4 shots at 12" range. But he has had since T1 to stop your Rhino from moving. You might never be able to get into that sweet spot in the first place....

 

Once again, no Rhinos.

 

Interesting, and I do agree. Razorspam is a moderately strong build. However, there are much stronger and more fun builds that do not consist of six models plus Long Fangs.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The 2Pg+Rhino cannot engage units from 48" away.

If it wants to shoot 24", it cannot move. The LasPlas can move 6" and touch anything 48" away.

54" > 24"

 

Ah, but my Hunters are not in Rhinos. Instead, they simply buy Razorbacks as transports and use them as gun platforms. HK missiles and the turret weapons is quite an effective combination. Plus, if I lose four Hunters, they can jump inside and run away. ;)

 

The 2Pg+Rhino is good at rolling 6" and giving 4 shots, no doubt about it.

But the LasPlas never has men that die from the Pg. It can also move 6" and shoot > 12"

If the 2Pg+Rhino sits still and puts out 2 24" shots, that is matched [bettered?] by a LC and tlPg shot from the Razor.

 

See the above.

 

Why do you have a permanent 4+ save on the Razors?

 

My Hunters are sitting in front of them.

 

I don't think you have more firepower. Perhaps at the move 6" shoot 4 shots at 12" range. But he has had since T1 to stop your Rhino from moving. You might never be able to get into that sweet spot in the first place....

 

Once again, no Rhinos.

 

Interesting, and I do agree. Razorspam is a moderately strong build. However, there are much stronger and more fun builds that do not consist of six models plus Long Fangs.

 

Your Greys aren't in the Rhinos?!!11!!eleventyone!! :P

 

*pinch of salt warning* If what you are doing is working for you, then more power to you. However, some things you are saying have not been successful in my games of 40K and chatting online with others. So hopefully I can share something that is useful to you. :D

 

Half the battle that, say, Tau have is getting Greys out of their APCs before they disembark and beat their blue faces bluer. That they can pewpew them from T1 with submunitions, plasma rifles and missile pods is just a blessing to them.

 

See post #26 MECHANISED TEMPLARS AND RHINOS in my signature. I know it is about Templars, but it shouldn't be too hard to put into a Wolf context :)

 

I don't think screening the Razor with Greys is a great idea.

Troops win games. Troops take transports to get to X in safety and in good time. Troops are more than important than their rides. Not having them gaining something from their transport and being put in the way is back to front, imo.

I understand not having your men in the transport if it is way back near you table edge. I understand have a plasma gun squad pewpewing away is useful. I even use my Razorback to give cover to my home-Objective squad. But I wouldn't put my precious Marines in harms way for the Razorback.

 

I mean, if your taking heads doing it your way, then cool.

But I'd be too worried about:

• getting lashed and then plasma cannoned

• getting assaulted by BA Vanguard on the turn they drop

• getting a Mawloc emerge under the squad

• getting battle cannoned

• getting dreadlocked

• getting tarpitted

• getting assaulted by TWC and other long assault range units.

[d@n]

5xassault marines in an asssault cannon razor back with a sang priest near by is pretty good . in large games with all the upgrades you can give grey hunters, you have to give it to the wolves,5xgrey hunters las/plas mow, wolf standard, wolf guard with combi weapon and fist and a power weapon for a tad under 240pts.

BA have the advantage of fast vehicles but with bolters and las/plas SW dont need to get close to most armys so being fast is a none issue.

 

BA only have the option of getting close and assaulting and razorbacks are not assault vehicles so you have to time your assault a turn ahead.

A clever oponent will not allow you to assault, you get out of your razorback he gets back into his transport or just keeps moving backwards rapid firing. bassically there 2 different armys with different playing styles and imo if your paying all the points for extra guns, which is why you buy razorbacks then you need a gunline army and with sw ability to field troops wich are just as good in assault as they are at firing and have counter attack and dirt cheap missile launcher that can split fire and take an extra missile launcher in each squad whilst your rune priest gives all your razors a 5+ cover eave wolves are probably the best army for razorspam.

 

If BA want to take advantage of the fast rhino rule then 3x vindicators followed by a jump pack tech priest is the best option, 36" demolisher cannons anyone?

[DV8]

5xassault marines in an asssault cannon razor back with a sang priest near by is pretty good . in large games with all the upgrades you can give grey hunters, you have to give it to the wolves,5xgrey hunters las/plas mow, wolf standard, wolf guard with combi weapon and fist and a power weapon for a tad under 240pts.

 

Anybody who spends THAT many points on a Razorback squad is just plain stupid. Nevermind that I could buy almost double the number of marines/vehicles with that many points, but half the upgrades that unit will never efficiently use.

 

And any BA Razorspam list that spends points on Sanguinary Priests either isn't a Razorspam army, or the person building/playing the army has no idea what they're doing, quite frankly (what's the point? Sanguinary Priests support infantry, and the more infantry you have, the better...Razorspam is the total opposite...few minimally equipped infantry, backed up by as many vehicles as possible).

 

BA only have the option of getting close and assaulting and razorbacks are not assault vehicles so you have to time your assault a turn ahead.

 

No they don't. Blood Angels are Space Marines just like everyone else here. They have different advantages/disadvantages and their theme would appear to be more close-combat oriented, but a BA Razorspam list is no more assault than a SW Razorspam list is. That they have Fast vehicles and Assault Marines inside doesn't necessitate that they must automatically make a bee-line for your force in an attempt to make close combat.

 

A clever oponent will not allow you to assault, you get out of your razorback he gets back into his transport or just keeps moving backwards rapid firing. bassically there 2 different armys with different playing styles and imo if your paying all the points for extra guns, which is why you buy razorbacks then you need a gunline army and with sw ability to field troops wich are just as good in assault as they are at firing and have counter attack and dirt cheap missile launcher that can split fire and take an extra missile launcher in each squad whilst your rune priest gives all your razors a 5+ cover eave wolves are probably the best army for razorspam.

 

If BA want to take advantage of the fast rhino rule then 3x vindicators followed by a jump pack tech priest is the best option, 36" demolisher cannons anyone?

 

I would disagree that Space Wolves are the "best" army for Razorspam. Codex Space Marines, Codex Blood Angels, and even Codex Black Templars are just as capable of producing effective Razorspam lists. The difference is that each book brings to the table different styles that create a different "kind" of Razorspam list. Just because Space Wolves can fit in more (and cheaper) long-ranged firepower doesn't automatically make them "the best".

 

And stop pidgeon-holing Blood Angels into such a one-dimensional army. There are other ways to take advantage of the Lucifer engines.

 

 

DV8