Alternative to Jaws for Killing Nid MC's?

[ChainsawDR]

There’s a lot of negative stigma attached to using Jaws to take out Nid MC's. If I go to my LGS and play Nids and bring on 2 Rune Priests with Jaws people roll their eyes and get pissy.

 

After Jaws, what is your best way of killing Nid MC’s? They traditionally have very high Toughness and high Wounds (making it impossible to instant kill them), and I'm looking for a viable alternative to Jaws.

 

I’ve done some Mathhammer and LC’s, ML’s, Plasma and Melta don’t seem to be that effective – especially when firing at long range when there is a gaunt cover screen.

 

What’s your next best option to Jaws? Is it in HtH? Do you clear the cover screen then hit with Heavy weapons?

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

ChainsawDR

[Decoy]

Every time they drop down MCs, roll your eyes and get pissy.

 

Jaws is a selection in your book; it's a common ability used by many Wolf players. Tell 'em to get over it or play an army that's worth playing. If they want to play the "Jaws is broken" card, whip out the "Monstrous creatures are broken" card (since both are equally illogical) and tell him to grow the ;) up, quit his :cuss ing and play the game like he's got a pair.

 

ON EDIT: On topic... Thunderwolf Cav with Frost Blades (S6) is damned nice, especially with SS backup. If they want to play the "Big Creature" route, you can do it right back at 'em. Hell, put Ragnar in the T-wolf squad, sit 'em back and wait for the MCs to come to you, then Furious Charge/+d3 attacks on the charge and you've got... Someone correct me if my math is wrong... up to 7 Initiative 5/Strength 7 attacks per Wolf with blades.

[breng77]

How are monsterous creatures getting a cover saves off of gaunts? There are only 2 ways this can happen. 1.) A tyrant with guard (who does not worry all that much about Jaws). 2.) 2 Carifexes with 2 Tyranid primes attached. Other than that guants don't obscure 50% of any nid MC. Honestly Long fangs with ML will do the job just fine. Against non-tyranofex, non-2+save upgraded tyrant, you average 2.8 wounds per 5 missiles, so 2 packs of long fangs will kill most MC.

 

Jaws is also a myth in its effectiveness against nid MC. It is great on some and almost worthless on the rest. (Carnifexes, Tyranofexes, and Tervigons hate it, The rest really could care less as they only die on the roll of a 6. and many have shadows in the warp if you are close.) A TW lord with a Thunder hammer and storm shield can do a pretty good job against the MC as well.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I agree with the posts. I face a lot of MC as I play against Nids regularly. I often take out his Hive Guard with a Jaws (I only field 1 RP) - but that's his fault for letting me get so close. Other than that it's LongFangs and missile launchers all the way. A lone MC (like carni) can be taken out with a concerted attack from GHs with melta first, then fists. I'd go with more than one pack though (or one backed up by something else)

 

Maybe if you only field 1 RP they will moan a little less (not that I am suggesting you should change it). Then you are on some good ground to complain if they start fielding deathstar MC units .... which are also pretty ridiculous. As long as you are playing an "all comer" - and not tailoring, I don't see the issue. Jaws is good against Nids - useless against Eldar. It's swings and roundabouts.

[Grimtooth]

Ragnar joined to thunderwolves is not legal, but best left for a rules forum thread.

 

I have had very good luck with missile launchers as noted above, but also with a living lightning rune priest with saga of the beastslayer. Unlimited range means you should be able to get 2-3 strikes on said MC before they are anywhere near your lines.

[Decoy]

Why's it not legal, BR? ICs on Thunderwolves can't join non-T-wolf units, however there is no restriction on ICs joining Thunderwolves if they're not on T-wolves. Where's the issue?

[the jeske]

If I go to my LGS and play Nids and bring on 2 Rune Priests with Jaws people roll their eyes and get pissy.

well SW are nid counter army . more or everything run in normal non tailored SW lists kills nids. mecha sucks for nids, jaws kills them , choser nerfs infiltration , hth strong + no frags+ counter charge means horde build have it hard. then 10-15 RL builds are personaly responible for making the warrior build[which was forced on use , and then nerfed by prime FAQs and the fact the the nid desing team didnt know how SW or IG armies look like] non viable , jaws kills half of out good units[and considering the rest dies to melta/plas+RL that is kind of a problem for nid players]. But in the end it is as others said it here [even if they dont play nids] , a nid player has to live with the fact that SW are their counter match up [orks have the same problem with SW] and that the nid codex is balanced , which means it does draw the shorter stick against a good codex with good builds like SW.

 

By the way I have seen nid armies lose to SW without jaws more then a few times and I dont think the nid players felt it was better because of it . To lose against nids a SW player has to charge a nid deathstar in the open in 2-3 waves [because a 2 squad+TWC charge may end bad for the nid player] with the SW having 0 shoting or dice that dont work.

 

Or to make it even more short and simple , I dont think there is a way to make a nid player happy about playing against SW.

[ChainsawDR]

How are monsterous creatures getting a cover saves off of gaunts? There are only 2 ways this can happen. 1.) A tyrant with guard (who does not worry all that much about Jaws). 2.) 2 Carifexes with 2 Tyranid primes attached. Other than that guants don't obscure 50% of any nid MC.

 

hmmm... so a Tervigon who spawns Gaunts in front of it doesn't get cover from them? if so, my last opponent was telling big fibs!

 

Whilst we're at it, do Hive Guards benefit from cover from Gaunts? I'm guessing 'yes' but would like to double check whilst we're on the subject.

 

Against non-tyranofex, non-2+save upgraded tyrant, you average 2.8 wounds per 5 missiles, so 2 packs of long fangs will kill most MC

 

I worked out that against a 6 wound Tervigon it'd take 11 LC, ML or melta shots to put him down (7.33 hit, 6.11 wound) so we're both on the same page there. A regular 50pt Hive Guard would take 4 LC, ML or melta shots to put down (or 8 with a 4+ Gaunt cover save).

 

I've found that bikes are excellent at clearing the gaunts (relentless, rapid firing, twin linked) but my current squad aren't able to damage the MC's in CC...

 

6 Swift Claws, PF & HB AB + Wolf Priest, Bike, MB's

 

... what do you guys reckon to swapping the Wolf Priest for a Wolf Lord with Thunderhammer? I defo think I need a deathstar unit and prefer the speed of the bikes over the TWM.

 

Cheers guys

[the jeske]

I defo think I need a deathstar unit and prefer the speed of the bikes over the TWM.

why do you want to hth nids where it is almost the only place where nids can actualy do something to you ?

get LS , get LF get 5 WG to get a cyclon termy. do 15-18+ RL shots per turn + LL on a RP . If points are enough then buy razors [hvy bolter ones] for the LF . It would still be an all comers list and not a tailored one[because as said before SW dont even have to tailor against nids] .

[MalachiOfRuss]

hmmm... so a Tervigon who spawns Gaunts in front of it doesn't get cover from them? if so, my last opponent was telling big fibs!

Anything with the MC rule uses the vehicle rules for determining cover, not the infantry rules. Infantry get a 4+ cover whenever anything is between them and the shooter. MC's (like vehicles) only get a 4+ Cover Save if half or more of the physical size of the model is hidden. MC get a lot of bonuses (ignore Difficult Terrain, all Power Weapons, double armor pen vs. vehicles) but hiding behind little dudes is not one of them.

 

Here's one for you (evil chuckle): you want to field a "different" unit? Make a squad of WG Termies, upgrade one to Arjac, then stick a RP in Termie armor with Saga of the Beastslayer and a Wolftooth Necklacke (you could even just get Arjac and the RP and stick them with GH now that I think of it). This does require you to blow through the Gaunt screen, but you said that's not a big problem for you. What that Arjac and RP squad gives you is this: Arjac "hammerjacks" the MC, he hits on 3+ with a reroll (since he's attacking a MC) and wounds on 2+ (no armor save), the MC gets reduced to I1, then you rush into combat with the RP going at I4, the RP hits on 3+ with a reroll (Beastslayer), will likely need to wound on 5 or 6 (but you only need ONE), then you "pop" the Force Weapon ability and Instant Death the MC (before it can even swing back). The best part is: this will work on the things that are normally not susceptible to Jaws (the I5 and I6 stuff). I'm sure you'll hear your opponents rage all over again.

 

Bottom line: (as others have said) SW are just a really good match-up for 'nids. Our fluff and rules are inspired from those "Beowulf and Grendel" kind of Norse stories, where storied heroes kill great big monsters. It's what we do.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Yes I would go for the Lord rather than the WP. You will need a storm shield and saga of the bear as well of course.

(I know I talked you into the WP over the Lord in your last post - but you were talking about against marines there. However, unless you can afford the ss and saga of the bear, I wouldn't bother. He'll be toast in no time otherwise.)

 

Also, while the HB is good for anti hoarde, personally I think us Wolves are good against his hoarde anyway. Melta's are bloody good at taking wounds off monstrous creatures and softening them up for a charge. It may be worth considering going with a melta, combi melta and multimelta on the bikers. It's good against mech armies as well of course.

 

My advice on the deathstar type units (which I have faced a few times) is to ignore it as much as possible and take out the rest of his army. As is often the case, initial deployment is key with Nids ... If I get a choice, I would usually go second for instance to make sure I am as far away from his key units as possible.

[Simo429]

I'd suggest a different gaming group, can't stand people who can't be bothered to find new strategies to beat units that they struggle with. Surely thats part of the game,

[the jeske]

dude there are no new strategies or stuff to learn about SW vs nids match ups , unless you want to learn[as a nid player] in how many ways the same unchanged sw army that is all comers and un tailored owns you in many ways . Just like against orks a SW player [and his dice] would realy have to work hard to lose against the same level of nid player.

 

The only thing that should piss nid players off is that most of the time the counter army becomes legal after your own army been legal for some time . No such things for nids , IG and SW are their two worse match ups and both were out before the nid dex. To make matters worse unlike most of the new 5th ed armies nids are not a counter match up for anyone.

[ChainsawDR]

I did not even consider the Force Weapon, I wouldn't be able to use a psychic power in the shooting phase in order to do this, but it's handy to have for when jaws can't be used due to own models in the way. Question - do I roll the test on 2D6 or 3D6 if I'm within 24" of a Shadows of the Warp?

 

So the general consensus is...

• either stick to my guns and use Jaws anyway (I don't have a problem with this, I just like being able to say 'ok, be pissy, I'll beat you without using it anyway')
  
• use our considerable LR firepower to soften em up (great now the gaunt cover problem is gone).
  
• use the Rune Priest's Force Weapon to instant kill em
  
• Thunderwolves and/or Thunderlords
  

 

Awesome, thanks for all of the responses guys - really helpful and appreciated.

 

Thanks again

 

ChainsawDR

[The Son of Russ]

I did not even consider the Force Weapon, I wouldn't be able to use a psychic power in the shooting phase in order to do this, but it's handy to have for when jaws can't be used due to own models in the way. Question - do I roll the test on 2D6 or 3D6 if I'm within 24" of a Shadows of the Warp?

 

So the general consensus is...

• either stick to my guns and use Jaws anyway (I don't have a problem with this, I just like being able to say 'ok, be pissy, I'll beat you without using it anyway')
  
• use our considerable LR firepower to soften em up (great now the gaunt cover problem is gone).
  
• use the Rune Priest's Force Weapon to instant kill em
  
• Thunderwolves and/or Thunderlords
  

 

Awesome, thanks for all of the responses guys - really helpful and appreciated.

 

Thanks again

 

ChainsawDR

 

 

You see if you use those arguments, there are holes:

1: they will say "why use rune priests then if you can beat me without them"

2: it depends where your long fangs are. If they are surrounded by gaunts, and the carni is at the other end of the board, you would not be able to see over them. Thus the cover save, though only 5+

3: No problems with this.

4: No problems with this.

[MaveriK]

My Lone Wolf likes eating MCs their high in fiber.

[Brother Nathan]

if theres intervening models fexes do get coversaves. from the intervening models rule. also if you read the monsterous creature rule if you can see over 50% of the model its coversave is reduced by 1. take from that what you will bt to me that still means a 4+, and if someone cares to argue about it ill conceed a 5+.

And yea nids dont have it easy. fexes got compleately kicked in the nuts before they could be hit by jaws having their base costs doubled... and the stuff that can really help they dont even have models for. Id have to pull out the horror and the doom and a gargoyle wave to have a hope... and id prefer to be going stealer heavy(which also struggles due to the 5+...) which all just gives me less reason to paint my nids...

[The Rose Princes]

i'm currently 3-1-0 against SW with my nids, but that first lose (total table wipe) taught me tons and its not so bad anymore; hard fought and close games, but not impossible.

 

but if he's still using fex's in 5th edition he deserves the beating he gets. f'n useless!

 

 

also, shadow of the warp is only 12" radius... so you would have to do 3d6 if within that range.

[ChainsawDR]

Thanks for all of the comments and advice guys. I played Nids again today and beat 'em.

 

Jaws did play a key role, taking out two Tervigons, but the heavy fire also did a lot of damage now that the MC's aren't getting cover saves from Gaunts! I kept the Wolf Priest and Bikers rather than splashing out on a Thunderlord or Lord on a bike, their shooting and preferred enemy carved their way through countless Gaunts, ultimately winning the game as my opponent didn't have any troops left with which to capture any objectives.

 

Feels good to get a another win against Nids under my belt. Thanks again for all of the advice.

 

ChainsawDR

[Hicks]

MCs are too big to get cover, or if they do, they usually have to forfeit a good line of sight and movement. Also, they don't have really good stats, their armor save is pitifull for their point cost and they have zero invulnerable saves.

 

So pick from one of the bazzilions options that will wound them on 2s and disallow saves.

 

Seriously, nids vs SW is just not a fair fight .