thunderbolt Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hello how are you. I like to know if it is possible to attach Shrike to a terminator squad and infiltrate them. If you were then to keep to him attached to that squad if they would gain the fleet special rule. thank you Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Possible? More like awsome-ible. With Shrike attached, one unit of assault terminators can infiltrate and fleet. Two more squads can still have fleet and run across the table as a second wave. Shrike gives the entire army fleet, not just the unit to which he is attached. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boltergeist Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Yes, you can infiltrate them. Fleet comes from the replacement of Combat tactics, so if Shrike is your only special character in the army then they will have fleet whether he is attached or not. If you have a second SC with chapter tactics then you would have to choose which you get at the start of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Yes and yes. This is actually a common tactic, especially if you can hide them out of LoS of the enemy, but at twelve or thirteen inches away, such as behind a wall or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Yes, this is doable. People may come to hate you for it- first turn assaults by TH+SS TDA is never appreciated- but you can do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 I thought he lost all his special rules if the squad he joined did not have them. I mean the infiltrate rule. And how would u do a sweeping advance with him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 He keeps Infiltrate and gives it to the squad because his unit entry specifically says so. Since codex overrides BRB, the rule about losing that USR does not apply. Â He cannot SA with terminators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Yes, this is doable. People may come to hate you for it- first turn assaults by TH+SS TDA is never appreciated- but you can do it. Â i hear this alot, but against anyone but a noob getting a first turn charge is highly unlikely.. and unless your army is catered for this one unit to work they will be wasted within a couple of turns of shooting. Â so yes its doable, just not recomended Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hello how are you. Â I'm good, thanks. I'm questioning my life's choices, of course, but who hasn't at this particular point in their lives? I mean... What if I could have done some things differently? What if I knew she still loved me? And what if I took advantage of that offer I declined? So much would be so, so, SO different... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Yes, this is doable. People may come to hate you for it- first turn assaults by TH+SS TDA is never appreciated- but you can do it. Â Â Rule for infiltrating: - You infiltrate MORE then 18" away in LOS - MORE then 12" away if completely out of sight or into a BUILDING (not cover, as is the misconception) Â Â 6" move, 1-6" fleet, 6" assault, is maximum 18. You have to be more then 18", so no first turn charge there. Getting 10 models with 40mm bases, plus Shrike completely out of LOS is a massive challenge, let alone just over 12" away from their lines. Jump infantry cannot embark into a building. Â And that's assuming your opponent doesn't have infiltrators of their own to block you first. Go over to the sons of corax forum, and look at how many of the Raven Guard players use this kind of list. I'll save you the trouble, none. Â Why? Because it doesn't work. 590 points spent on putting terminators in front of all your opponents big guns. They don't even have to divert attention from your other units on the table that much. There will be plenty of missiles spare to kill your transports, while the rest of their army will be able to rapid fire you to death, or just move away. Sure people will say the survivability of the terminators will hold up, but even if they survive the first shooting phase, terminators are slow, and even if you can catch units, it's still only one unit a turn, unless your opponent is silly enough to let you get the double charge. Â Â So really, this will only work against inexperienced, new players who wont know what to do about them. And you'll pull this trick on them. Nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 5 Terminators works just fine- scramble over/through some ruins and right into combat at 12". Small enough unit its easy to hide, large enough to do some damage. Â ... and with 40mm bases its not hard to double charge most armies youd need to- gaurd, nidz, orks, maybe tau. But this is getting into tactics. Â In the end, its possible, and thats the question answered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 its possible that the wind will deposit all the leaves into one big pile in the middle of everyones lawn.. just becuase its possible doesnt mean its valid or will happen with any regularity. its possible that a meteorite will crash through my ceiling and kill my goldfish  im sorry if this comes across as 'rude', its not my intent, but we cant simply answer the question without some context.. is it possible to attach shrike to termies and infiltrate them.. yes of course.. but are first turn charges possible?  well grey mage says yes, but i say no.. and the reason i say no is that it will so very rarely happen that youll find a building that blocks LOS within 12" of an enemy unit before the game (that the opponent isnt already using or stearing clear of.. combined with the fact that any decent player worth his salt will know to avoid the unit and any chance of an alpha strike. And as meatman suggest JP infantry cant deploy within buildings (didnt know this before today).  All these factors means youll rarely get the chance to assault first turn.. saying its possible doesnt cover the fact that taking a 590 or even 390 point unit (much less survivable with 5 termies btw) in the chances that youll get lucky with terrain or a stupid opponent is crazy.. its definately not the way to build a list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 All these factors means youll rarely get the chance to assault first turn.. saying its possible doesnt cover the fact that taking a 590 or even 390 point unit (much less survivable with 5 termies btw) in the chances that youll get lucky with terrain or a stupid opponent is crazy..its definately not the way to build a list. Â I would say it is no more crazy than deepstriking terminators... maybe even less so.... and if you want 10 terminators it is certainyl cheaper than 2 land raiders... You don't even need a 1st turn charge... if you can put it in the right place to try and put pressure on his big guns (which may or may not be possible) while trying to stay away from as many small arms as possible and against some armies it may well be worth letting shrike run off on his own... say shooty armies with small squads (Tau, Small IG squads, even marine combat squads without fists). Â I mean lets face it you take thunderfire cannons because it is possible that they might kill something... however if you are going second in Dawn of War it might already be in comat by your second turn before you get a chance to fire... Life is full of different bits and bobs and some things may be difficult but if you have a back-up plan for when you can't assault it might all work out anyway. Â I'm personally not a fan of all eggs in one basket, but I thought if anyone wouyld support people trying upopular ideas it would be you :< how many people have told you that all the choices in your army (scouts/thundefires) are bad... and how many times have you said that the right general can make them work? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm personally not a fan of all eggs in one basket, but I thought if anyone wouyld support people trying upopular ideas it would be you :< how many people have told you that all the choices in your army (scouts/thundefires) are bad... and how many times have you said that the right general can make them work? Â (Who says the TFC is bad? :blink: ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm personally not a fan of all eggs in one basket, but I thought if anyone wouyld support people trying upopular ideas it would be you :< how many people have told you that all the choices in your army (scouts/thundefires) are bad... and how many times have you said that the right general can make them work? Â (Who says the TFC is bad? :blink: ) Â Many people have advocated that it is not very good (I'm sure many people also say it is great but that wasn't really my point), I want to make it clear to anyone else who decides to read my post that I'm not actually making any comment myself on how good scouts or TFCs are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Many people have advocated that it is not very good (I'm sure many people also say it is great but that wasn't really my point), I want to make it clear to anyone else who decides to read my post that I'm not actually making any comment myself on how good scouts or TFCs are. Â What an odd thing for people to think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2682957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm personally not a fan of all eggs in one basket, but I thought if anyone wouyld support people trying upopular ideas it would be you :< how many people have told you that all the choices in your army (scouts/thundefires) are bad... and how many times have you said that the right general can make them work? Â its hardly the same thing, i always try to advocate doing something unique.. the shrike termies thing is the next 'vulkan' list in terms of how much attention it seems to be getting at the moment. people think its easy to get first turn charges with this unit.. its not, its highly unlikely. Â people also think those termies can weather a first turn firing storm, chances are they wont.. people will see them for the threat they are and allocate resources to killing them. Â IMO (and i use aplha strikes as my bread and butter) if your not reaching combat turn one, then you shouldnt infiltrate close to the enemy. Â i advocate uniue lists not crazy tactical choices Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm personally not a fan of all eggs in one basket, but I thought if anyone wouyld support people trying upopular ideas it would be you :< how many people have told you that all the choices in your army (scouts/thundefires) are bad... and how many times have you said that the right general can make them work?  its hardly the same thing, i always try to advocate doing something unique.. the shrike termies thing is the next 'vulkan' list in terms of how much attention it seems to be getting at the moment. people think its easy to get first turn charges with this unit.. its not, its highly unlikely.  people also think those termies can weather a first turn firing storm, chances are they wont.. people will see them for the threat they are and allocate resources to killing them.  IMO (and i use aplha strikes as my bread and butter) if your not reaching combat turn one, then you shouldnt infiltrate close to the enemy.  i advocate uniue lists not crazy tactical choices    Highly unlikely doesn't come close. Nigh on impossible unless your opponent purposely chooses to set up just over 12" away from that perfect LOS blocking terrain that you can easily move around/through. Knowing full well you have Shrike and terminators. And then you get good difficult terrain and fleet rolls.  That's assuming he doesn't infiltrate his own unit in/behind that very piece of terrain, meaning you are now having to set up in LOS of something, so you now have to sit well out of assault range.  This isn't a "roll a 6" chance of happening. This is so unlikely I'm surprised people even attempt it or suggest it as a valid tactic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 This is so unlikely I'm surprised people even attempt it or suggest it as a valid tactic. Â i know its weird huh? thats the trouble with the interwebz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I don't think it needs a first turn charge to be useful... never seen a a terminator squad in a raider get a 1st turn charge unless the enemy zoomed towards them first... people take them... Never seen a thunderfire cannon get a first turn charge for that matter :P Â As for weathering the first turn? Well on that note whats the point of any unit...? If someone really wants to kill it very few things can survive a turn of appropriate fire... the whole point is to draw inappropriate fire. Â As for your opponent knowing what you've got? and the terrain? I guess that depends how you play... I play with pretty heavy terrain non of this empty board with a bush in each corner... not only that but terrain is randomized so if you get a deployment zone you don't like you might have terrible LOS that can really mess up your game... I also personally like to play fog of war because it makes the game much more fun not knowing what the other person might pull out of the hat... however as that is a house rule it is of no matter... Â Also first turn charges are easy ^^ I will bet people money as long as they have a model on the table and don't have a chooser of the slain I can get a first turn charge on them :D I've been first turn charging since before shrike gave people fleet bwahahahaha... although I normally don't do it because I'm nice :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 As for weathering the first turn? Well on that note whats the point of any unit...? If someone really wants to kill it very few things can survive a turn of appropriate fire... the whole point is to draw inappropriate fire. Â i think this is the main issue at debate here.. its one thing to say we can pick any unit turn one and make it go away.. but when that unit is camped right infront of your whole army and makes up one third of thier points then its a different kettle of fish.. the average army ahould be able to make most of these guys dissapear pretty quick IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 As for weathering the first turn? Well on that note whats the point of any unit...? If someone really wants to kill it very few things can survive a turn of appropriate fire... the whole point is to draw inappropriate fire. Â i think this is the main issue at debate here.. its one thing to say we can pick any unit turn one and make it go away.. but when that unit is camped right infront of your whole army and makes up one third of thier points then its a different kettle of fish.. the average army ahould be able to make most of these guys dissapear pretty quick IMO Â I would argue that it would be easier fo the army to do so when it (the terminators) has to walk across the board for three turns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 This thread has gone into more detail on taking out said nasty unit. We've been told to keep it away from tactics here :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 And how would u do a sweeping advance with him. Â You simply move Shrike out of coherency during the movement phase, then assault seperately. Â The real question is: what are you assaulting that can survive 10 terminators to be run down? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2683725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Thank everyone, you have been help full tho i think this is a an odd thing to do. In my own opinion i would attach Shrike to a 5 ma vanguard unit with lighting claws and jump packs be about the same as the terminator assault squad price wise plus still be able to sweep advance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224337-kayvaan-shrike/#findComment-2684219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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