chaos raptors

[chillin]

Most competitive (even semi-competitive, like myself) players seem to agree, they have little use for raptors. They look goood on paper, 5 xtra pts for csm's that can fly. On paper, seems like they should be pretty good. Why are they such a bad choice (and I know from my own trials and reading others opinions on this board that they are) ? It's pretty much agreed, csm's are a pretty good troop choice. Seems logical that paying 5 xtra pts to make those csm's fly whould be pts well spent,we all know it's not :P . It's not like we have any other FA to choose from. Is 5 pts to make csm's fly just too much, are they overpriced ?? Or is it a larger problem, in that within the couple of molds we have to force our armies into to be competitive, there is just no room for raptors, even if something for the same pts cost, for the same stats, that flies would be great in a different army??

Would like to get other peoples thoughts on this.

[Captain Tezdal]

With two melta guns is how I mostly see people play them, for tank busting.... Personally I use em. I don't play "competitive" thoughy and they are fairly expensive and fragile.

[the jeske]

they are not scoring and there is no way to make them score or buff them which means they are csm without a rhino[aka they cant LoS block or hide so they do get shot up easily] . we dont have the characters to run with them , sorc are bad , specials dont have wings and lords are more of a fluff choice compering to what loyalist could do [mainly no eternal warrior , no storm shield no army/squad buff] for their assault units be they scoring or not.

 

ah and if someone wants to do anti tank then termicid is cheaper and harder to counter and both have down time .

[Spacefrisian]

The best use for them is to wait and see what the next CSM dex has in store for them, the current Csm dex seems to lack a Fast attack option that is usefull.

[Kevlarshark]

Its a massive shame that Raptors' rules do not fit their background at all, they consider themselves a combat elite

and considering they were formed during the heresy thats quite a boast...

 

 

I would really like to see them get 'hit and run' which fits their background...

The Raptor jumpack (was created using now lost technology) and is supposed to be superior to the more

'mass produced' SM jump pack so 'jet packs' would not be unrealistic either.

 

It would be nice if you took a 'raptor lord' that you could take Raptors (at least one unit) as troops too.

[Panda_]

In the previous codex, they were interresting and really different from Assault Marines :

- 3 specials were allowed without additional bodies

- Hit and Run (think about it with 3 flammers)

- 29 points per body. Yes that's expensive, but I think everything were more expensive too.

 

Actually, Raptors and Bikers are our only units that can bring a cheap dual flamers and remain mobile turns after turns.

 

With the price, functionnality and durability, they are close to a 3 combi Terminator unit.

 

Well, in fact those Fast Attack slot are in competition with Terminators slots. Our terminators bring certainity (you can’t stop a unit from Deep Striking), while Bikers/Raptor keep their mobility accross the turns.

 

Should we prefer Raptors/Bikers over Terminators has been much developped already (we can debate about it again).

[Panda_]

It would be nice if you took a 'raptor lord' that you could take Raptors (at least one unit) as troops too.

 

Well, I'd not even ask so much. I'd prefer to rephrase it into "Raptor lord make raptors scoring (while remaining a FA slot)".

[Brother Nihm]

Is 5 pts to make csm's fly just too much, are they overpriced ??

Simply put, they cannot do anything that CSM cannot do better and cheaper. They aren't even CSM's as has been pointed out - they cannot score. Add horrible synergy with our other units, the need for baby-sitting by a Lord (another sub-par choice) and they end up being a lot worse off.

 

If Raptors had Furious Charge and Hit & Run, they might even be useful to us on their own.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Minsc]

Raptors where decent when they came, but now when you look at Assault Marines which are cheaper and with combat tactics and atsknf, you see how overpriced our Raptors really are.

 

Imo Raptors should gain Stealth or Furious Charge, to show that they're more elite than regular Assault Marines...

 

I Pray our next codex makes my 16 Raptors playable.

[Madcap]

I have used squads of raptors with the current codex and had some success. Last couple of games I played 5 raptors with 2 meltaguns and used deep strike to get them behind enemy lines. In one game versus Guard, they cut off fleeing units while putting pressure on a heavy weapons team. In another, they drew fire from my opponent's forces so my rhinos and obliterators could get in better position to strike back. For 120 points they did their job. While Termicide is 105 pts, the extra 15 points gave me 2 more bodies and more mobility. I endured the counter-fire and proceeded to assault the next turn. (Plus, if there were any vehicles left to shoot, I could have fired the meltaguns again.)

 

There are benefits to taking raptors:

* They can take two specials with just 5 figures (unlike assault marines and Chaos marines).

* They can take meltaguns (unlike assault marines).

* Their flamers are cheaper than assault marines.

* They can move fast and still assault (unlike Rhino-based marines).

* They don't score.

 

The last one seems like a bad thing, but it also sets them free to hunt enemy units down without forsaking objectives. They can also contest objectives, leaving your Troops to hold other objectives.

 

I have also used squads of 8 raptors with 2 meltaguns, icon, and champion with powerfist. With cover and Rhino screens, they can be very effective at hunting tanks and assaulting enemy Troops so your own Troops can focus on other things. Plus, your opponent can waste resources dealing with the raptors, which buys time for your regular Chaos marines, obliterators, etc.

 

I will agree that they can be a subpar choice, but don't write them off completely. With proper use they can do some serious damage.

[Xeonic]

I've run some (proxied) raptors, they did okay, two melta and that's it, added some mobile(as opposed to fast) melta to my list, you could call it raptorcide if you want, they didn't replace my melta CSM, and provided some extra wounds for my winged sorc. They worked okay enough for me to order some jumppacks to actually build a unit of them.

 

It's not that they "suck" by any means, it's more that they are just flying CSM that don't score and don't help target saturation any. They're not faster melta delivery than CSM or plague marines in a rhino, and they're far more susceptible to being shot up on the way in without a rhino bunker. On the other hand they're a lot easier to limit LoS to(5 raptors can be moore or less completely hidden behind a rhino) and will always have extra bodies to shove low AP shots off onto, and you can't take away their mobility, you have to kill them.

In our 5th edition codex(6th edition maybe?) they would be a decent choice to take if they could be made scoring or had some appeal in CC(HnR, FC, +1WS or somesuch) over CSM. IMO Jumppack Infantry in general are weak in the 5th edition meta, and it's only DoA armies that pull off en masse jumppackers in 5th edition, and that due to the shock and awe factor of limited scatter meltaguns attached to jumppacking, furious charge, feel no pain assault troops.

 

The ideal choice would be a jumppack lord would make them troops/scoring, plus some buff(the above, or ability to purchase veteran skills such as tank hunters, hit and run, or furious charge) at appropriate points cost. At least something to make them more than just CSM assault marines, because when's the last time you saw non BA codex assault marines on the table?

[the jeske]

* They can take two specials with just 5 figures (unlike assault marines and Chaos marines).

so can 2 pms or termicids or chosen[the last two can take actualy more then just 2]

* They can take meltaguns (unlike assault marines).

take a look at the BA dex. for loyalist it doesnt matter . they dont use RAS as they have no synergy with their lists and they have better FA options[LS, MM attack bikes]

* Their flamers are cheaper than assault marines.

only chaos doesnt need flamers . and if a loyalist player was crazy enough to actualy take a RAS unit , then he can make his flamers twin linked.

* They can move fast and still assault (unlike Rhino-based marines).

they can charge , but they dont move faster then csm [and 6" slower then BA RAS] . also they cant realy move 12" because true LoS means if even one gets seen the whole unit may suffer.

offten they are actualy slower[in getting in to shoting/charge range] then rhino squads .

* They don't score.

yep. and one could say that this is just a bonus.

 

 

and provided some extra wounds for my winged sorc. They worked okay enough for me to order some jumppacks to actually build a unit of them.

cool story . thing is sorc are not even viable for friendly or fluff lists , I dont think even a 1ksons player would take a sorc . and if someone wants just anti tank he can buy termicid[still remembering that he will never buy those till oblit slots are full , so more or less till 1750+] .

as bodyguard goes. small raptor units wont do good in hth[specialy with a sorc] , in fact they bounce of even the most basic of units , they can lose to a tac [sorc get fist , sm dont run. they win through attrition because raptors will have 4 bodies till fist dies and sm will have 6-7]. and small units die to fast and dont get enough protection . + we get the whole fewer units to target for opponent , problems with LoS [raptors at least the new ones are taller then a rhino , they cant even he LoS shielded with a rhino wall].

 

 

It's not that they "suck" by any means, it's more that they are just flying CSM that don't score and don't help target saturation any

ok . they dont score [so not like tacs] , they dont do death stars [like lets say TWC] , they are not good in assault [because they lose man before going to hth , they are not better then csm , they force a lord being used which is a bad HQ and alone they just die] they dont do anti tank well [because termcid is cheaper and oblits are plain better]. So what do they do ? Because if they dont kill stuff , dont camp objective or buff/support the army then they do suck .

[Shas'o R'Vre]

RAS Unit

I think I'm a little rusty on my abbreviations. I assume this means "Ranged Assault Squad"?

[Alys]

RAS Unit

I think I'm a little rusty on my abbreviations. I assume this means "Ranged Assault Squad"?

 

Regular Assault Squad - Assault Squad without backpacks, so they can fit into transports (usually a razorback), but keep all their CCW goodness

[Minsc]

cool story . thing is sorc are not even viable for friendly or fluff lists , I dont think even a 1ksons player would take a sorc

 

I disagree.

Sorc's are very viable for friendly and/or fluffy lists, and so are Raptors.

I don't use Raptors very often, but when I do they're almost always accompanied by a MoT Sorcerer with Disc, Warptime and Wind of Chaos.

The Sorcerer is quite overpriced (as always), but he's not half bad as long as you keep him away from powerfists, and 6 S4 forceweapon attacks on the charge with warptime is nothing to sneeze at - then the rest of the raptors attack.

 

And I'm originally a 1k Son's player.

[Xeonic]

It was a friendly fluffy list. And I said they did "okay", as in mediocre. As in, totally non-competitive. Were they a waste of points? No, they brought two moderately fast meltas to the table and a little fun guard for my IC. Were they a little inefficient and generally not super optimal? Yes, yes they were.

 

I'm not a tournament player and I already said I thought they were merely "okay", even from a fluffy/fun perspective. I *gasp* play with friends, just for fun, often, thus not every list I run has 3x2 oblits, 3x10 CSM with fistychamp and dual melta, and two princes with MoN.

I even play missions from the battle missions book. And they're not always killteams.

[Madcap]

and provided some extra wounds for my winged sorc. They worked okay enough for me to order some jumppacks to actually build a unit of them.

cool story...

 

Jeske, I think we can have differences of opinion without resorting to being snarky.

 

The point is that some of us like using Raptors from time to time. I don't believe they are as bad as you make them out to be. I have been able to block LOS to my raptors using Rhinos without issues. Raptors can effectively charge from 18" away, whereas Rhino marines cannot (at least, in one turn). Compared to termicide, you get 2 more bodies and reusable meltaguns. They are cheaper than 5 plague marines with two meltaguns and a Rhino. And flamers are useful to Chaos, particularly vs. units in cover and hordes.

 

I've used them and had success. You choose not to use them because of your play environment. That's cool.

[Madcap]

I'm not a tournament player and I already said I thought they were merely "okay", even from a fluffy/fun perspective. I *gasp* play with friends, just for fun, often, thus not every list I run has 3x2 oblits, 3x10 CSM with fistychamp and dual melta, and two princes with MoN.

I even play missions from the battle missions book. And they're not always killteams.

 

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :D

 

I play in a social group using a variety of missions. We really like the Battle Missions book to keep things fresh. We are even running a campaign using stages of different scenarios. My raptors worked well in a few of those games. And even in the game where they were shot to pieces, that was a round of shooting not aimed at my CSMs in Rhinos. Meanwhile I have had games where my obliterators didn't do squat due to bad shooting and a lot of 1s on my plasma cannon Gets Hot rolls. It doesn't always come down to points and stats. How you use your units are far more important in practice.

 

But yeah, using an optimized list in social groups is a buzz-kill. I use raptors. One of my other friends uses bikes with lightning claw Khorne lords on a bike for his CSM army. Another friend plays Thousand Sons (poor bugger). We have a two SM players, a Space Wolf player, a Tau player, two IG players, and several Daemon players. Yeah, I don't always win, but I have lots of fun losing in style and telling a cool story. And winning with raptors, even against solid lists, does happen.

[chillin]

We really like the Battle Missions book to keep things fresh.

 

Battle mission book is kool, I like using stuff outta there. We even modify those or just make stuff up that seem kool when we feel like it. I like playing friends and friends of friends in peoples houses more then I would playing in stores. I do miss the RTT we used to have twice a year tho.

[Rik Riorik]

Raptors never struck me as a supremely bad choice especially since they dropped nine points from the last Codex to the new one. True they might not be an optimal selection but they do add a different unit to play with that plays slightly different and adds different problems to your approach. Which can all be refreshing. But in truth the aren't as bad as some would have you believe. If all we did was listen to some we'd all be playing the same optimised list, be bored, depressed and stop playing. Some units are worse than others. True. Some units are even worse than them. Also true. But inclusion of said units is not an auto lose action.

 

I've heard the truth spoken. I know the optimal list. But I choose to ignore parts of it, because playing a list that just doesn't feel right is more a pain in the backside than adding a few more problems in the quest to win.

[the jeske]

Sorc's are very viable for friendly and/or fluffy lists, and so are Raptors.

I think we have a different view of what friendly is then [or fluffy] . a sorc costs like a DP , a lord costs like a DP too. A lord at least has the nurgle/undivided DW to make him "good" , the sorc has what ? psychic powers[DP has them too, the same ones] a force weapon[only he has too few A to get through SS models , or models with higher T , not to mention stuff with eternal warrior or the fact that hoods/runes/staffs etc exist in the game] and he can sit in a unit[which I already covered , why it is bad]. I mean you could as well tell me that a 1ksons army can play friendly [well not much else it can do realy] without oblits.

 

him away from powerfists, and 6 S4 forceweapon attacks on the charge with warptime is nothing to sneeze at - then the rest of the raptors attack.

and then he hits on +4 wounds on +4 and the he goes through the SS and does what maybe one wound ? and either warp time or the force weapon gets stoped because of hood/runes/staffs etc ? And if he has the disc then he is freaking huge , which means the squad can get targeted by everthing [good chance there will be too few of raptors A to make impact].

 

And I said they did "okay", as in mediocre.

medicore is bad. A DP/pm/zerker/oblit does ok [still has tons of problems with no viable slots for FA , not enough support , no counter to psychic powers etc].

 

 

 

 

And even in the game where they were shot to pieces, that was a round of shooting not aimed at my CSMs in Rhinos.

 

Ok lets build a 1500 pts army with raptors in it.

 

We have to take 2 troops , we cant combat squad 2/3 of all games are about objectives etc If we take 2 troops to get raptors then zerkers and specialy pms are out of the question [too few bodies too easy to kill ] , so we are forced to take csm [well at least they are still ok] . So what do we cut ? well we can cut play with a single lord or single DP [both things are bad because a single lord wont cover babysiting 2 raptor units and a single DP is a too easy target ] or we can cut oblits [which leaves us without long range support , which more or less puts the build lower then 1ksons and NM builds] .

What do we get for that ? We get jump infantry with stats like csm with all their problems [can run , icons can be killed , they die like meq but cost more then csm etc] , they dont do anti tank better or even as good as other options we can or could take from the dex . they dont do hth better then options we can or could take from the dex. they give us nothing , they are not even viable for NL fluff lists because those are made better with the BA dex [scoring jump troops , better DP , actualy viable bikers and Attack bikes etc].

 

 

 

they do add a different unit to play with that plays slightly different and adds different problems to your approach.

how is "get in to 12" and better yet in to 6" to use melta" different from csm do ? even zerkers and pms have the same way of game play[duh i know considering they have the same one as csm].

 

I have been able to block LOS to my raptors using Rhinos without issues.

well I have managed to make wright lords being untargetable by incoming fire too with modeling , but if someone uses the actual raptor models [and your opponent can always ask you to put a legal model when he is checking LoS , if a model like that exists] then without modeling it is impossible to hide them behind a rhino .

 

 

 

And winning with raptors, even against solid lists, does happen.

and what does that have to do with the question asked by chill ? He asked why they are unplayable . Please dont give people who are maybe starting the game that it is in anyway good or ok to use raptors , because it is not . They give a chaos list nothing other units dont give for cheaper [or better ]. Worse it doesnt change when you play more points . To make an example , vengauard in normal point games[1500-1750] are not viable , but when you play 2k or more it is possible to use them[as in outside of BAs]. it is not optimal but not realy bad. raptors get actualy even worse when you play more points.

 

I played NM builds for 2+ years . Did I win game with them ? yes . are they viable ?no .

But up till codex IG there were at least ways to make them playable . raptors are worse then that they are not even playable , they are up there with dreads , possessed, spawn , khorn demon weapons etc. units/gear that just make no sense in taking .

 

Not even for fluff or playing something different , because as I said it before , there is not difference in game play between a unit of raptors and a unit of csm[with the "small" difference of raptors being non scoring , costing more and forcing less viable HQs].

[Shas'o R'Vre]

RAS Unit

I think I'm a little rusty on my abbreviations. I assume this means "Ranged Assault Squad"?

 

Regular Assault Squad - Assault Squad without backpacks, so they can fit into transports (usually a razorback), but keep all their CCW goodness

Right, I see. Kind of like a lame attempt to be jack-of-all-trades CSM then, but with a Razorback. *hides idea from my regular opponent who has a real love of Assault cannon Razorbacks*

 

The point is that some of us like using Raptors from time to time. I don't believe they are as bad as you make them out to be. I have been able to block LOS to my raptors using Rhinos without issues. Raptors can effectively charge from 18" away, whereas Rhino marines cannot (at least, in one turn).

My main problem with Raptors is that a clever opponent will single them out with Plasma Cannons or similar, or use the lack of Rhino to charge them with a better equipped, cheaper assault squad or other fast assault unit.

 

Compared to termicide, you get 2 more bodies and reusable meltaguns.

But the idea of termicide is that they are a throwaway unit. 105pts to go can-opener on something big, then not have to worry next turn when they are melted into molten slag by plasma.

 

And flamers are useful to Chaos, particularly vs. units in cover and hordes.

Massed bolters do this well enough, and Oblits have far superior template weapons. And in a world of over-used mech, flamers can't be used against about 45% of all units on the board. So yeah, I disagree heavily with this statement.

 

I've used them and had success. You choose not to use them because of your play environment. That's cool.

And we accept this. However, the OP was asking why people DIDN'T use raptors.

 

[Edit] -

I played NM builds for 2+ years . Did I win game with them ? yes . are they viable ?no .

But up till codex IG there were at least ways to make them playable .

You and I will have to have a discussion on this sometime Jeske, I'm interested in how you go about building a NM build, I've never been able to use them personally. But that's another conversation for another topic. Or a Private Message. Or maybe even a Tactica/Librarium article.

[Rik Riorik]

they do add a different unit to play with that plays slightly different and adds different problems to your approach.

how is "get in to 12" and better yet in to 6" to use melta" different from csm do ? even zerkers and pms have the same way of game play[duh i know considering they have the same one as csm].

 

It is the way you play them that is different. They don't have the protection of a Rhino, ie you need to protect them better on a run-in to do their job. Which means you don't play them as you would a standard CSM squad with the same job in mind. They also of course don't lose their faster movement to a lost transport. They can also Deep Strike although that might not be the best of ideas depending on the situation at hand. In essence they are not the same as CSMs but just costing more. The difference here then is that it spices up your list with a unit that not only looks different but also poses a slightly different approach. I agree that they are lacking when it comes to the bang they can give you for the buck. Heck a squad of 5 CSMs with just one melta in a Rhino would cost the same, have better survivability and would probably still be equal or better in all respects than a five man Raptor squad with 2 meltas be it either objective point denial, objective claiming (which the Raps cannae do) or tank hunting (more likely to survive at least to get a shot at a tank).

 

Do you play them differently than you would CSMs? Yes.

Are they as points efficient as other solutions? No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please dont give people who are maybe starting the game that it is in anyway good or ok to use raptors , because it is not.

...

Not even for fluff or playing something different , because as I said it before , there is not difference in game play between a unit of raptors and a unit of csm[with the "small" difference of raptors being non scoring , costing more and forcing less viable HQs].

 

It's not 'ok' to use Raptors? I can agree with the 'good' part of the statement if we define good as 'being the most points efficient' but I cannot agree with it not being ok. Especially given that you don't consider it valid to playing them either for fluff or for having something different in there because firstly it is not your place to tell anyone what is acceptable to field and secondly because well yes, Raptors actually do add a different element with different concerns and approaches whether you like it or not.

[Minsc]

think we have a different view of what friendly is then [or fluffy] . a sorc costs like a DP , a lord costs like a DP too. A lord at least has the nurgle/undivided DW to make him "good" , the sorc has what ? psychic powers[DP has them too, the same ones] a force weapon[only he has too few A to get through SS models , or models with higher T , not to mention stuff with eternal warrior or the fact that hoods/runes/staffs etc exist in the game] and he can sit in a unit[which I already covered , why it is bad]. I mean you could as well tell me that a 1ksons army can play friendly [well not much else it can do realy] without oblits.

 

Indeed he costs like a Tzeentch DP with the same powers, and he is overpriced, but just because something is overpriced doesn't make it useless, especially in fun/fluffy lists. I use Possessed as well you know, should I expect a lawsuit from you anytime soon?

 

And how did you manage to get your winged sorcerer stuck in combat with SS/TH termies in the first place?

You also make it sound like every army out there can field SS/TH termiers, hoods and got loads of Eternal Warriors when actually they're only afew armies who can.

You're just being overly pessimistic, like usual.

 

and then he hits on +4 wounds on +4 and the he goes through the SS and does what maybe one wound ? and either warp time or the force weapon gets stoped because of hood/runes/staffs etc ?

 

Again you pitch him against SS/TH Termies with a Librarian on the field...why?

 

And if he has the disc then he is freaking huge , which means the squad can get targeted by everthing [good chance there will be too few of raptors A to make impact].

 

I can't speak for others, but we have quite alot of terrain on the boards where I play, and putting them out of LoS (Raptors are almost as big as a Disc-Sorc) is quite doable, and giving them a 4+ Cover is all but impossible.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Indeed he costs like a Tzeentch DP with the same powers, and he is overpriced, but just because something is overpriced doesn't make it useless, especially in fun/fluffy lists. I use Possessed as well you know, should I expect a lawsuit from you anytime soon?

Quoting the OP

 

Most competitive (even semi-competitive, like myself) players seem to agree, they have little use for raptors. They look goood on paper, 5 xtra pts for csm's that can fly. On paper, seems like they should be pretty good. Why are they such a bad choice (and I know from my own trials and reading others opinions on this board that they are) ?

Chillin asks why are Raptors a bad choice in competetive/semi-competetive environments. Not how they can be put into (competitively sub-par) friendly lists, which have to be TAILORED to play to Raptor Strengths.

 

And how did you manage to get your winged sorcerer stuck in combat with SS/TH termies in the first place?

You also make it sound like every army out there can field SS/TH termiers, hoods and got loads of Eternal Warriors when actually they're only afew armies who can.

You're just being overly pessimistic, like usual.

 

*snip*

 

Again you pitch him against SS/TH Termies with a Librarian on the field...why?

Because your Opponent FORCES you to. And practically EVERY army now CAN field something with a 3++ (or at worst 4++). Immunity to ID is a bonus, one that most people take.