chaos raptors

[Xeonic]

I think we have a different view of what friendly is then (or fluffy) . a sorc costs like a DP , a lord costs like a DP too. A lord at least has the nurgle/undivided DW to make him "good" , the sorc has what ? psychic powers(DP has them too, the same ones) a force weapon(only he has too few A to get through SS models , or models with higher T , not to mention stuff with eternal warrior or the fact that hoods/runes/staffs etc exist in the game) and he can sit in a unit(which I already covered , why it is bad). I mean you could as well tell me that a 1ksons army can play friendly (well not much else it can do realy) without oblits.

He costs like a SM captain or other tooled up SM leader, only the difference is that we have an exceptional efficient and dare I say undercosted EW MC that we can sub for a standard HQ. So good and undercosted that many chaos players take two ignoring the established fluff without even bothering to "count's as". And no, I'm not saying our IC HQ are balanced, but they're not unplayable.

 

He's merely fluffy and not really competitive, I get that. But I also sometimes play tooled SM captains so I'm used to spending the points on my HQ slots.

and then he hits on +4 wounds on +4 and the he goes through the SS and does what maybe one wound ? and either warp time or the force weapon gets stoped because of hood/runes/staffs etc ? And if he has the disc then he is freaking huge , which means the squad can get targeted by everthing [good chance there will be too few of raptors A to make impact].

Way to be negative. all psychic powers can be nullified, that's the point of psychic defence. Warptime is a great piwer that makes a ho-hum character into a killing machine of death with all sorts of rerolls. Of course a DP can take the same power and be all the better for it, but it's still a great power if you don't have opponents that read the rule the way they want to to gain an advantage.

medicore is bad. A DP/pm/zerker/oblit does ok (still has tons of problems with no viable slots for FA , not enough support , no counter to psychic powers etc).

Difference of opinion. They killed maybe their points worth but probably a little less(stupid points inefficient sorc), whilst causing my opponent to be bothered about a unique threat on the board. Mediocre. They didn't cost 350 pts and start on fire and spontaneously asplode, which would have been bad.

I was also playing against Necrons, which says a lot about my gaming environment.

 

They did what I expected them to, which was be fun and kill some stuff, they didn't run from the board(though next time I will take chaos glory). No, they didn't make back their points, but hey, it's a 5 man unit of jump infantry and I wasn't expecting much.

 

My definition of ok may be different. CSM are ok. Plague marines and zerks are good. Some of the better troops choices in the game IMO, infact.

Ok lets build a 1500 pts army with raptors in it.

We have choices. If you're using a sorc you're already settling for a "sub optimal" list as written in the book of jeske(not that your advice isn't sound from a purely clinical purely competitive mindset). I'm not going to get into them in depth because you'll always disagree with me, but we really do. We can pare down, take a 5 man unit of CSM with a special and no champ, or well, one HQ. We could sub a unit of autocannon havocs in for some oblits and gain some extra HS shots to cover, or take combi-preds *gasp*.

 

But as I said you will disagree because to you there is no other choice than 2x3 oblits and 2x MoN princes. These are the most "efficient" choices and I admit that generally, but they're far from the only one, and they're far from the only effective choices IMO. But my opinion is my opinion and yours is yours shaped by the meta you play in and the(apparently highly competitive) environment you play in.

well I have managed to make wright lords being untargetable by incoming fire too with modeling , but if someone uses the actual raptor models (and your opponent can always ask you to put a legal model when he is checking LoS , if a model like that exists) then without modeling it is impossible to hide them behind a rhino .

True line of sight and "count's as"? My raptors are modeled on scenic bases(several extra mm of resin) but don't stand as tall as the GW ones. What if I had taken the GW ones and made them all crawling? or hacked off their legs and just glued the torsos to the base?

I don't like the raptor models, I don't have any, and they don't fit the fluff of my army. I can chose to not play against an opponent who won't play against me because my raptors aren't the GW metals but instead are converted from the CSM and zerker boxes.

If I play a biker captain surfing on his bike, or one hiding behind it and firing over the seat, and say it's (for example) Khan, does my opponent get to dictate that my model is no good because his target profile is minimized or maximized, or not the actual Khan model?

What if I did some SM scouts, modeled some of them them all laying down in sensible sniper positions covered by their camo cloaks(official GW models for the same list entry merely reposed)?

I have HQs that are standing flatfooted on 28mm bases, and more than one model that's sitting on 2-6(!!) inches of rock promentory.

 

I could understand in a competitive environment someone bringing it up if I was modeling my guys to take advantage of the rules(said laying down scouts might apply), but my raptors are modeled as jump infantry. Normal jump infantry. No, they don't stand as epically tall as the GW raptors(which I can only assume you could still get a coversave from a rhino with), but for that matter...what If I used the old raptor models? Surely those are different than the current range ones.

 

For that matter my olits are converted from terminators(I hate the current oblit models) and don't have the exact same dimensions as the stock GW ones, would you make me purchase a metal oblit on the spot so you could satisfy your desire to get "fair" LOS?

 

Anyways, I said what I thought of them from the limited table time I had with them and I said why I thought they were sub-par and what could be done in the next codex to make them a more useful, powerful selection. They're supposed to be warped, twisted elite 10k year old terror troops with unique abilities and gear, and this isn't represented by their current rules. The rest of my post was merely to show that they are a unique choice in the CSM codex and not 100% worthless(something you obviously disagree with). Sub optimal yes, but I also said that. My disposition is such that if I were playing in a tourney I might take a 5 man unit of them with 2 melta, because that's the kind of player I am. And it would end up being a different mixup than the cookie cutter chaos tournament lists. Plus IMO, it wouldn't even be an auto lose choice.

 

But as I said, I normally play for fun, and change my list up periodically depending on the running narrative. I don't always play Jeske approved tournament optimized lists against friends, and often include *gasp* one or two sub optimal choices in a given list.

But I rant a little, I'm not trying to argue or change your mind, just explain my position and the background that lead to it.

[the jeske]

Jeske approved tournament optimized lists against friends, and often include *gasp* one or two sub optimal choices in a given list.

I wasnt talking about the use of raptors in tournament armies . I was talking about fluff or casual lists , talking if raptors are or arent viable for tournament lists stops when one compers their price with their job and their dmg ot defense auto put [so about 10 sec after you see a 3 men termicid 5 man raptor and 3 man biker squad].

[Slayer le Boucher]

Play purly WE List.

 

So no CMS and Havocs, and i prefer Defilers to Oblits, while i have Oblits models.

 

So Raptors are the only unit with my Chosen to have Meltas, well sometimes i give combi meltas on my Rhinos and Termies, but most of the time no.

 

But its true that they lack something to make them really competitive with other units.

 

The real problem comes also from the fact that they take dangerous terrains check when you try to put them savely in a terrain.

 

You can still risk it though.

 

But anyways the way i use them is as a mobile Rearguard unit, too often in the past i send my Raptors into the front with the rest of my army, while been reduced to 2-3 models, my opponent then DS a few units in my back...

 

Be It Nids that comes from the ground or Dropped Dreads, and telling myself that i should have leave them in the back to shoot those darn thing with the Meltas.

 

So thats what they do, i keep them in reserve and make them come by my board side, if anything comes in my back, and its pretty usefull, specialy against a Marines player with 2-3 Dropped Dreads in your back, or even against a few other things who enjoy DSing in your back.

[Rawne_11]

I am only replying to this because of Jeske's remark that it isnt ok to take raptors. I am a chaos newb, havent played 5th edition, and even when I played regularly in 4th my IG weren't exactly known for winning all the time. But honestly, its not ok to take a unit? Really? Its your army, your game, do whatever you want. If someone new (like myself) reads on here that raptors arent 100% completely useless and takes a unit of 5 (like me), good on them. There is more to the game than Beserkers, Daemon Princes and Obliterators. Or atleast there was back in 3rd and 4th edition. Might not be anymore. Not saying those units aren't good (obviously they are, always were), not saying theres anything wrong with using them (obviously there isnt, and what do I know anyway haha).

 

Of course if the jeske meant its not ok to take raptors in a competitive list, that makes more sense. Still a bit harsh by my standards, but from everything I've seen on here I wouldn't say raptors are competitive. So they are apparently a bad choice.

 

As to the original question, seems straight forward. They are fragile, no better than a regular marine. Not a scoring unit. They DO get multiple specials at only 5 men so they can DS and go anti tank or draw some fire from your other units, but thats about it. They wouldnt work in a competitive list because there are plenty of harder, more efficient options. I'd say they are like chaos daemons or bikes. They can be interesting and they can be useful, but in the end, youd be better off with something else.

 

As a chaos newb, the lack of FA in the codex was quite striking. While the bikes and raptors seemed interesting, niether struck me as particularly attractive. Granted there are plenty of other units to choose from (lots of troops), but still. Chaos needs some better Fast Attack I'd say.

[the jeske]

If someone new (like myself) reads on here that raptors arent 100% completely useless and takes a unit of 5 (like me), good on them

see thing is they are .

if the difference between raptors/oblits/termicid was small [and I mean both points and effectiveness of the unit] we could arguee . just like sm players can do about which is better in FA MM attack bikes or MM/tempest land speeders.

 

taking raptors is not a small thing . they cost a lot pts more then termis for fewer shots , when both units wont surive the counter [+the raptors have the big problem of giving opponents chance to avoid/intercept/counter them] . As hth units they are even worse , csm that are not scoring force using a lord [so one bad unit forces us to use a sub optimal one] . And what do we get for it ? the chance to make a charge after moving 12" , but with bigger squads then the 5 man anti tank ones [which means bigger chance of counter, bigger chance of them shot at etc].

 

But all that is just game play and one could always say , that in a casual army it doesnt matter what I take[what seems to be your view on things] . The problem is witht he way chaos units are costed If I take 2x5 or 2x8 raptors the whole codex falls apart . because suddenly I have to either play with no support [and no 1x2 oblits is not a good option] or fewer troops[2/3 of all games are about objectives and we cant combat squad] . This is above all the main reasone why they are unplayable .

this is not about playing DP/oblit builds , this is about having or not having long range support units[and against many armies no long range support is very bad and against all it is at least 1 free turn of shoting for our opponents] or not having enough troops . Sure armies can be build with no long range support or with minimal troops , they can even be viable . problem is raptors are not a LR rush termi unitx2 , they are csm with jump packs .

 

Of course if the jeske meant its not ok to take raptors in a competitive list, that makes more sense

nope I ment why they dont fit in to a casual list .

auto canon havocks , termicid . those are our casual units , you wont see them in normal lists. because there is no point in using them in real games.

[Rawne_11]

You make fair points, and I'm not necessarily arguing with you. I mean I would never take or recommend more than a single unit of raptors, and 2x8 would definetly be a poor choice. And yea the troops choices or long range support you could be taking are a better choice. Definetly. Troops, especally chaos troops are awesome if geared right. But ymy view is and has always been that in a casual game, experimenting with less than optimal units is fine. I wouldn't take raptors to a tournament, but I see no problem using them in a non tournament game if you accept the reality that there are better options.

[firestorm40k]

Generally I would agree that Raptor’s are far less effective than they should be. They do need a USR such as ‘Hit & Run’ or the like to give them an edge compared to standard Loyalist Assault Marines.

 

As they are however, I have found them very useful when playing Guard – if I take two squads of 5-7, one with Meltas, the other with Flamers, they can mess up my opponent’s fire priorities, as they tend to react to the Raptors rapidly advancing on their flank, as opposed to the numerous units of CSMs in Rhinos and Daemon Prince advancing right at the centre of their force! If any survive, they can be useful at routing weapons teams, or even as in one case, flaming the majority of a merged platoon, then cutting the remainders down in CC – and that’s with only 3 of their unit still remaining!

 

However, I have found them less useful against other armies, so in more competitive games I tend not to field them. Having said that, I have a big, narrative based game this weekend and I will be using 22 of them! B)

[d@n]

Raptors had hit and run in the old dex, gave thorpe got rid of all the vet skills and didnt bother changing the points. The whole 4th ed dex is rushed and poorly thought out.

[Brother Nihm]

gave thorpe got rid of all the vet skills and didnt bother changing the points.

3.5 ed. Raptors were 29 Points/model, now they are 9 points cheaper. It doesn't change the fact that they now suck/have no niche or role to fill in our lists. But they are cheaper at least.

[d@n]

gave thorpe got rid of all the vet skills and didnt bother changing the points.

3.5 ed. Raptors were 29 Points/model, now they are 9 points cheaper. It doesn't change the fact that they now suck/have no niche or role to fill in our lists. But they are cheaper at least.

sorry your right. i should of said, there the same stats as assault marines without atsknf combat squads, combat tactics the abiltity to remove there jump packs and go in a rhino and we get the privilege of paying more then anyone else for them.

[AoC]

Generally I would agree that Raptor’s are far less effective than they should be. They do need a USR such as ‘Hit & Run’ or the like to give them an edge compared to standard Loyalist Assault Marines.

 

As they are however, I have found them very useful when playing Guard – if I take two squads of 5-7, one with Meltas, the other with Flamers, they can mess up my opponent’s fire priorities, as they tend to react to the Raptors rapidly advancing on their flank, as opposed to the numerous units of CSMs in Rhinos and Daemon Prince advancing right at the centre of their force! If any survive, they can be useful at routing weapons teams, or even as in one case, flaming the majority of a merged platoon, then cutting the remainders down in CC – and that’s with only 3 of their unit still remaining!

 

However, I have found them less useful against other armies, so in more competitive games I tend not to field them. Having said that, I have a big, narrative based game this weekend and I will be using 22 of them! :)

Raptors dont need hit and run.

 

One of the main problems of 40k in general are no fear/terror mechanic and other psychology that play some role on battlefield. Raptors in fluff are portrayed as cult that terrorize others, but actual gameplay there are no such thing as terrorizing units.

 

Also, 12" move just don't cut in, it's too slow. IF raptors would be somehow faster (if jump packs would be somehow faster in general)(like say 15" or 18" jump packs, or 30" turboboost jumppacks) they would fare better. Not to mention that terrain kill them hard, and they have no choice between going Jp and on foot.

 

Another thing is smoke granades, with them giving cover they would do better. Not to mention cost. Not to mention stats taht represent heresy era veterans.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

One of the main problems of 40k in general are no fear/terror mechanic and other psychology that play some role on battlefield. Raptors in fluff are portrayed as cult that terrorize others, but actual gameplay there are no such thing as terrorizing units.

 

You haven't read the Tyranid or Dark Eldar Codices recently, have you?

[Brother Nihm]

One of the main problems of 40k in general are no fear/terror mechanic and other psychology that play some role on battlefield. Raptors in fluff are portrayed as cult that terrorize others, but actual gameplay there are no such thing as terrorizing units.

 

You haven't read the Tyranid or Dark Eldar Codices recently, have you?

I was about to say the same. :)

 

Their mechanics work just fine portraying fear and terror.

[AoC]

One of the main problems of 40k in general are no fear/terror mechanic and other psychology that play some role on battlefield. Raptors in fluff are portrayed as cult that terrorize others, but actual gameplay there are no such thing as terrorizing units.

 

You haven't read the Tyranid or Dark Eldar Codices recently, have you?

I did. Point is, the game is still lacking in this department. Morale and Leadership don't play big role in the game where every one is fearless or it's irrelevant.

[the jeske]

You haven't read the Tyranid or Dark Eldar Codices recently, have you?

and the nid ones dont work because there are too many non IC , fearless etc unit and the DE ones cost too much .even if we add the psy squad from IG to the mix , What does that tells us about the actual use of Ld stat in w40k when 60% armies are ATSKNF , fearless etc ?

[Dan The Deamon]

I think what may have fouled things up a little bit was getting rid of target priority tests. I think the idea was fantastic, and it encouraged fun game play as your units were fighting for their survival, instead of the big picture. With these rules brought back in a tweaked a bit there would obviously be some units disciplined enough to ignore the tests, and some units given abilities to alter their outcomes in some pretty severe ways.

 

Obviously there are ways to make raptors better with the 5th ed rules, but i think they would find a nice niche within a target priority setting.

[d@n]

The csm dex has some ok units but when all is said and done its rubbish, it is so bad that it made GW re think there whole 40k strategy and spawned the whole "counts as" themed armys you see now. You can argue that its not but no one is and never did play blood angels using the chaos dex, just look at the army list posts on this forum for chaos, a large percant are counts as armys.

 

So you can just except that the army you spent so much time and money on is going to have a very hard time winning, unless you make your whole army out of the 3-4 good unit or just use the same models and a different codex

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2

[Morollan]

You haven't read the Tyranid or Dark Eldar Codices recently, have you?

and the nid ones dont work because there are too many non IC , fearless etc unit and the DE ones cost too much .even if we add the psy squad from IG to the mix , What does that tells us about the actual use of Ld stat in w40k when 60% armies are ATSKNF , fearless etc ?

 

I tend to agree. Ld in general needs to play a much more important role in 40k and not be constantly negated by Fearless, ATSKNF, Mob Rules, Hive Mind etc, etc, etc. Many of the problems with the current system arise due to using a 2-12 dice range on a 1-10 scale. The average dice score is 70% of the total available. IMO, Ld scores should use the full available range of 2-12. This allows for more variation between races and units. Probably a topic for another thread to be honest.

[AoC]

You haven't read the Tyranid or Dark Eldar Codices recently, have you?

and the nid ones dont work because there are too many non IC , fearless etc unit and the DE ones cost too much .even if we add the psy squad from IG to the mix , What does that tells us about the actual use of Ld stat in w40k when 60% armies are ATSKNF , fearless etc ?

 

I tend to agree. Ld in general needs to play a much more important role in 40k and not be constantly negated by Fearless, ATSKNF, Mob Rules, Hive Mind etc, etc, etc. Many of the problems with the current system arise due to using a 2-12 dice range on a 1-10 scale. The average dice score is 70% of the total available. IMO, Ld scores should use the full available range of 2-12. This allows for more variation between races and units. Probably a topic for another thread to be honest.

 

That would require using d12 (on the other hand, transition from d6 to d12 would be not very painful and would bring waaaaaaaaaay more variety).

[Morollan]

You haven't read the Tyranid or Dark Eldar Codices recently, have you?

and the nid ones dont work because there are too many non IC , fearless etc unit and the DE ones cost too much .even if we add the psy squad from IG to the mix , What does that tells us about the actual use of Ld stat in w40k when 60% armies are ATSKNF , fearless etc ?

 

I tend to agree. Ld in general needs to play a much more important role in 40k and not be constantly negated by Fearless, ATSKNF, Mob Rules, Hive Mind etc, etc, etc. Many of the problems with the current system arise due to using a 2-12 dice range on a 1-10 scale. The average dice score is 70% of the total available. IMO, Ld scores should use the full available range of 2-12. This allows for more variation between races and units. Probably a topic for another thread to be honest.

 

That would require using d12 (on the other hand, transition from d6 to d12 would be not very painful and would bring waaaaaaaaaay more variety).

 

Don't want to derail the thread further but the existing 2D6 test would be sufficient, you just have the extra option of using 11 and 12 scores to distinguish the truly disciplined from the rabble.

[AoC]

Don't want to derail the thread further but the existing 2D6 test would be sufficient, you just have the extra option of using 11 and 12 scores to distinguish the truly disciplined from the rabble.

 

Point is, there is:

35/36 to pass ld 11 test (97%)

33/36 to pass ld 10 test (91%)

30/36 to pass ld 9 test (82%)

25/36 to pass ld 8 test (66%)

19/36 to pass ld 7 test (48%)

14/36 to pass ld 6 test (40%)

10/36 to pass ld 5 test (34%)

6/36 to pass ld 4 test (18%)

3/36 to pass ld 3 test (9%)

1/36 to pass ld 2 test (3%)

 

So reducing ld by 1 dramatically reduce chances for passing test, and the 2d6 tests just don't scale well. Anything with less than 6ld just can't count on passing it. Anything with ld10 just can count on passing it all the time. So that leave ld values of 10, 9, 8 and 7 for most troops. In d12 system, using the same percentage that was used earlier, we have LD 11 (92% to pass test), 10, 9, 8 and 7(50%), or even 6 at 42%. Not to mention those scale better and there is finally something between ld 7 and 8 and between ld 8 and 9. And there is chance to pass tests on ld3 (16%, similar to current ld4).

 

Going back from morale. Jump Pack could use some serious buff in mobility, even ability to turbo boost would be golden, or ability to go 18". Imo, there are many problems in main rulebook concerning vehicles that make jump infantry the less viable choice. It's:

-price, rhinos and razors are dirt cheap

-durability of vehicles

-passengers can't be wounded while in vehicle

-even if it explode, passengers are barely affected, and have cover

-passengers are immune to blast templates that obliterate infantry that is not barely in coherence

-infantry barely in coherence can always be shoot at

-deep strike is unreliable (you don't know when your reserve arrive, and they can't arrive in first turn)(they scatter 2/3 of times)

-deep strike infantry are great target for all those blast templates

-jump infantry is hurt when it tries to assault units in cover, or move to cover. It have no option to move as 'normal' infantry (most of them should have the option)

-vehicles deliver it's cargo fast enough. Many times faster than JI

 

All those facts made jump infantry not good enough option to be worth it's non-scoring slot (not to mention that cargo of rhino is generally just as good in close combat and better at shooting things down, and can shoot from the vehicle just fine, and have about 3" or more range than JI equipped with similar weapon (melta, flamer), as you are not forced to show where your melta man is.

[Possessed Marine]

got a game coming up, I think I'll put some raptors in just to spite everyone :)

[General Ravensong]

If you convert your raptors to look like they can melt faces off, they'll roll better/people will feel bad for making you take them off the board.