Elites: Dreadnought vs Tactical Terminators (C:SM)

[raganrkob]

Hello everybody!

 

I'd like to hear your opinions about these to options. The thing is, right now I have one dread, 5 termines and 5 sternguard. But a friend who's building up a deathwing army proposed to trade the dread for the termies. (they are the black reach termies Btw)

What do you guys think?

 

Model-wise I love dreads and vehicles, but I want to consider the tactical implications as well.

 

 

If you wanna know the rest of my army consists of 2 tacs in rhinos, 1 sniper scouts and a predator. for HQ choices I have a captain and a librarian. My current dread has either a multi-melta or with an assault cannon + DCCW and heavy flamer.

 

 

Thanks in advance!

[DarkGuard]

I think you might have already answered your question in your post. If you like Dreads more, go for them. Don't worry so much about the tactics, rules can change.

 

Of course, this is a tactics forum, so I'll do my best.

 

I've used Dreads a little, and both of your variants are pretty good. Assault cannon for midfield support, and multi-melta is good for tank-busting. The multi-melta is best put in a Drop Pod though. My favourite variant is the much loved Rifleman Dread (two TL-autocannons), but that requires more conversions work and money. However, it is amazing at popping transports.

 

About Terminators, I own a squad of 5 with an assault cannon. I love the models, but on the tabletop they haven't impressed me. And quite frankly they don't fit into my fluff, otherwise I would have used them more.

 

However, I have heard good things about a 10 man squad with cyclone missile launchers, walking up the table. Very good fire and combat support. Think of them like your Assault Cannon Dreads but better range. Of course, you'd need two cyclones in addition to the extra 10 Terminators.

 

The best thing tactics wise is to look at your list. Looking at it you've got a solid foundation with 3 scoring units, 2 of which are designed to be mobile and grab objectives, the other designed to hold objectives in your backfield. It's a foundation I would follow if I had more points for the sniper scouts. Good HQ choices, I imagine they stick with the Sternguard. Pred for fire support. At the moment, the Dread seems a bit out of place. I'm not a fan of footslogging Dreads on their own, so either a Drop Pod for the melta or Rifleman in that list for me. Terminators would fit well as they'd give you lots of long-range firepower and still give you counter-assault capabilities to protect your Scouts. So personally, if I could get hold of a couple of cyclones I'd go for the Terminators. That's not to say Dreads are bad, and they help in this list by providing target saturation.

 

Of course, I've heard things about two assault cannon Dreads flanking a unit of 10 Terminators with cyclones. That would be scary.

[Xeonic]

Glue a HK launcher(should have spares from your rhino kit!) to the top of an AOBR termie - instant cyclone.

Try that, then try dropping them for the dread. They're both great support units though, and IMO dreads are fantastic. Assault cannon+DCCW dread slogging it can be more or less effective vs any target at range(rending!), and a good CC tarpit or counter-assault unit, as are the termies(w/a cyclone).

The termies will cost a bit more, but be more durable to typical antitank counters(as wella s being durable to infantry fire due to the 2+ sv.

[thade]

We had a talk a while back about the merits of tactical terminators. 2+ saves are awesome, but the 5++ will let you down too often to get excited over it. If you treat them like allied PAGK - keeping them back at 24" and on the move - their storm bolters will do you some good. Something else we considered was that they all have PFs (save the sergeant)...which can be nasty, almost like TH/SS terminators. That *almost* comes at a pretty steep trade off though...a 5++ instead of a 3++ traded out for said-storm bolters.

 

I keep meaning to test them out with a TDA HQ (librarian or commander) in a LR; they're a budget kill squad that's versatile in durability and ranged fire power. At five-man size, even a single tactical squad's worth of fire power will cost you one or two of them though (you're going to roll some 1s), so unless you mean to mount them like I might, keep them at 8+ strong. CMLs are nice; try one out.

 

That said, I'm with DarkGuard: if you like the Dreadnought model, keep it. Honestly, I prefer Dreads to Terminators as well. Dreads will tarpit most infantry units (or be tarpitted by, depending on your point of view) but that Str 10 fist will keep big bad HQs and vehicles at bay. What load out is the dreadnought? Is it the BR Dread? If it is, KEEP IT. It's the only way currently to get a MM on a Dreadnought.

[Mysticaria]

I love love love 10-man Tactical Terminator squads. The thing that really makes them is the cylcone missile launchers though. Thade is correct in that you give up the 3++ for storm bolters, but he forgot that you also get the option to take cyclones. At 460-470 points (give or take a chainfist or 2) this squad is hefty, but comes in at nearly the same points as an Assault Terminator Squad with a Land Raider. It has a lot of tactical flexibility (combat squad options, deployment options, shooting, close combat) that is hard to find elsewhere.

 

That said... I love love love dreads as well. If you like dreads, there is no reason you shouldn't trade. The thing with both terminators and dreads is that they get more effective the more you can take due to target saturation. Right now the enemy can use low-strength guns on your termies and high strength guns on the dread. If you switch with this trade, you may leave your opponent with guns that he can't use (ever try to kill a dread with bolters?). This sounds like a good trade if you ask me, as you both should get more effective with your armies.

 

I started with the black reach set (5 termies and 1 dread) and added up from there (10 termies and 2 dreads now). If you want to play tactical terminators I definately recommend going up to 10 of them. They are a fire magnet, and they will take casualties, and you don't want to reach combat with only 2-3 guys. I advocate strongly for tactical terminators on B&C, but I have to admit I never had good results with squads of 5 guys. Also, if you like dreads, I would definately look to get 2-3 of them. One dread can be an ok support unit I suppose, but fairly easy to deal with. 2 of them opens up tactical options and adds resiliency.

 

What style of army are you going for? Do you envision getting into close combat, or firing tons of shells down range? I'm thinking a rifleman dred might go well along side your predator.

 

-Myst

[rat of vengence]

-Myst

Oi! Who let that greenskin in here? What's that? Rocks, glass houses? Oh, well, yes I suppose he can stay...

 

:P

 

I agree with what has been said, but I prefer the dreads. You can get two really effective dreads for 5 termies with a cyclone, or damn close to it. I think it is the cost that does it for me. Ability wise, I love termies, but they just cost way to much for the bang you get.

 

RoV

[KhorneHunter57x]

Personally, I prefer Terminators, but I run a very vehicle-heavy army, so I need more bodies over more armor. At 2,000 points, I run three 5-man squads with two chainfists and a heavy weapon per squad, and they all Deep Strike in. Not the most tactically viable, I know, but I like it.

 

I think that, given what you have said, a focus on Dreadnoughts would probably be better. They can both be good against vehicles, the Terminators will be better against monsterous creatures and other walkers, and the Dreadnought can be better against infantry/hordes. The Terminators can be brought down by weight of light fire as well as blast templates, where the Dreadnought can be killed with a single shot. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. I have played quite a few games with both, and I have found that I prefer the Terminators. Others might find that they prefer the Dreadnoughts.

 

I think that, in the end, as they have quite a bit of tactical overlap, it really comes down to personal preference.

 

That *almost* comes at a pretty steep trade off though...a 5++ instead of a 3++ traded out for said-storm bolters.

True, but with the right wargear you can use the Terminators to your advantage through wound allocation. A pair of chainfists and a heavy weapon makes a 5-man unit cost 240 points, and you get four model groups (Sergeant, heavy weapon, 1 power fist/SB and two chainfist/SB models) for wound allocation. That can lessen the weakness of the 5++ in the right circumstances.

[thade]

Chainfists are awesome. I forgot to make a note about those. Nobody ever expects them and damn are they an effective can opener.

[Mysticaria]

-Myst

Oi! Who let that greenskin in here? What's that? Rocks, glass houses? Oh, well, yes I suppose he can stay...

 

:P

 

I agree with what has been said, but I prefer the dreads. You can get two really effective dreads for 5 termies with a cyclone, or damn close to it. I think it is the cost that does it for me. Ability wise, I love termies, but they just cost way to much for the bang you get.

 

RoV

Yeah, good to see you here. Might be back over there more with the new book out and all.

 

Good point about the points. This is an issue for two reasons. One, the cheaper something is the more you can fit into an army. The reason you like dreads is because you can fit a lot of them in for few points. Now, the second reason this could be an issue is that for new players they are often trying to spend points to fill out an army. Making a trade of 200-230 points of terminators for 105-125 points of dreadnaught will mean you might have to go buy some more models. Something to think about....

 

-Myst

[raganrkob]

Ahh choices choices.

 

Thanks a lot for all the input. I think the termies might stay in the end because I'd miss those missiles to kill the big things. Which is my army's greatest weakness