matt01price Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Wolves of the Fang Recently played my first game against orks with a 1250 points list.... loved it and am looking forward to more games. However i'm trying to steer away from going too stereotypical in terms of list structure when moving up to 1500pts.... i've got the near compulsory Rune Priest, 3 tooled up squads of Grey Hunters with attached Wolf Guard and then 3 units of Long Fangs (2x (2 missile launchers & 2 Lascannons) and 1x (2x Heavy Bolter & 2x Plasma Cannon)) leaving 248 points of extreme violence to dish out... Question is do i go with: A: a pair of dreds, something like plasma cannon, CC weapon and flamer and another with either Assault Cannon or Multi melta and CC weapon with flamer (different load out due to originality and generally wolf individuality) Like - more armoured targets on the field in addition to the 3 rhinos which are carrying my GH, nice character in the SW and can hurt virtually every unit type or at least hold them up Dislike - slow in comparison to speeders and lacking the trickery of scouts B: 2 scout packs each tooled up and one with a wolf guard Like - being able to mess with opponent's heads, the pure wolfishness of them Dislike - Unpredictability/fragile, and are they really going to be able to hold up a unit for any serious amount of time, only 3 rhino's for enemy anti tank to play with.... they're gonna get shredded C: Speeders (i'm thinking 3x Heavy flamer and multi melta) Like - Fast and flexible and relatively disposable Dislike - Paper thin armour and lack of wolfy credentials I would greatly appreciate any advice on the matter, it’d be great help Praise Russ Matt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 D: why not one pack of SW scouts and one dread? best of both A and B. as for C: paper thin yes, so why not razorbacks instead? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danosef Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'd be tempted to go with A or B in this case. I'm slightly biased in that I do not - and have never - liked Speeders. I appreciate their worth in our lists, but personally just never found a love for the models. Meh. I love Dreads and would be tempted to go with MaveriK's suggestion of A & B - but I'd be concerned abut the lack of other AV12+ units in your list. By itself - a Dreadnought will become the victim of all the serious dakka arranged against you, which at 1250 won't be extensive, but will almost certainly exist to some degree or other. A pair of Dreads at 1250 however would be a potent force. Thinking about it though - my personal choice would be to run with option B, the Scouts. What's not to love about sociopathic genetic superhuman hunters stalking your enemy and spoiling his plans, by showing up in the most awkward places to share the melta love ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt01price Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 My thinking was that anti tank i relativly well covered in the long fangs and the meltas in the GH packs, so was looking at a little more rounded a unit which could bother troops up close and personal - that was why i discounted the razorbacks. And yes i agree with you on the dread and scouts point but i used to play GK and the constant mantra there was that a single dread walking around was going to get topped instantly so i'm a little wary... the idea of redundancy coming to mind and all that to be honest i'm leaning towards the dreads Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Speeders seem to round out your list with their speed. Being able to harass a a flank to draw attention away from advancing Grey Hunters up the middle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 @Brother Ramses, I'd rather go with bikes if you want speed and to harass your opponents in their flanks. @matt01price, as for the dreads, if you have a problem with a single dread walking around cause they get topped instantly. Wouldn't having two of them eventually do the same by your logic? it's a reason why I suggested D. You have Long Fangs to take care of anything dangerous for your dreadnought, not to mention that one pack of scouts to deal with your opponents armor. It's a balance from A and B. I think the problem why most people try to stay away from the one dreadnought is not using the dread tactically. It's all about target priority! have your dread choose the right target, and get yourself in combat and have him eat troops. I can see why most people are deterred with having the one dread, but I think its best to have a plan set in mind ahead of time for your dread to accomplish. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danosef Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Speeders (removing my personal bias against them) and Dreads would both compliment your force well. However, if you want to bother troops up close and personal as you put it, then I'd suggest the Dreads. You mention as an option having 3x HF/MM Speeders - but as you're already looking to veer away from Melta as it's 'covered' - you're only gaining the HF by your own criteria - albeit on a very mobile firebase. But I agree with MaveriK's statement above - bikes are a better option for general pestering of the opponent's peripherals. Dreads would add something new to the force, draw a lot of fire off your other troops and be able to withstand a lot of it - and will negotiate with extreme prejudice when up close and personal. As for the Heavy Flamers - well - you can have them on your Dreads anyway as a cheap upgrade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 matt01price Are your Grey Hunters in Rhinos? I couldn't tell. +++ I like Dreads, as they can hang out near the Greys and should you get the two units to charge something, that is a lot of damage being done. If you give the Dread a HF, you can bring a MM into the equation. Maverik: I think the idea of bringing two Dreads is like "Lanchester's square rule" Link: Lanchester's laws Basically: Whatever number of something you have, is the power you raise it by, and that is how effective it is. For example One unit: 11 = 1 Two units: 22 = 4 Three units: 33 = 9 One Razorback can be dealt with by one las cannon. Two Razorbacks by two las cannons, etc. But when you have 4 Razorbacks and only two las cannons to fire at them, not only do you have to deal with the first two [which is not always going to happen] but the second two are doing whatever they want and perhaps shutting you down. The 4 Razorbacks are able to function and suppress your attempts at trying to stop them at a rate which is better than just being double your las cannons. Hopefully I have said that intelligibly :P +++ Scouts are good, though I think that is as much due to the threat they bring, rather than what they actually achieve on the table. They work well against gunlines - forcing your foe to deploy closer to you encroaching Wolves :lol: But my favourite unit for Marines of all flavours is the MM HF Speeder. +++ If you have your Greys in APCs, you have started to bring mech to the table. If you have no mech, you give your foe nothing choice to shoot his las cannons at. Excellent. If you have much mech, you give your foe too much to shoot at. Excellent. If you don't have APCs, by bringing Dreads or Speeders, you are allowing your foe to direct all his las cannons at them. That is not a good thing. If you want some Armour in your list, imo, you need to go further than just one or two pieces. Otherwise you are just providing a paper for your foes scissors. Does that make sense? I have more to say, but I'll leave it there for now :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 gotcha! :P and thanks :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 have to agree with the A & B option. While one Dread might be taken out quickly it is drawing all the fire away from your rhino's full of Greyhunters while they rush in. Hopefully the Long Fangs can deal with his anti tank while he's trying to pop the dread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 For me I would choose the scouts due to the psychological aspect they bring to the fight. He won't know where they will come in and will not focus everything he's got to the wolves coming head on, but to all directions waiting for the scouts to show up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergelmir Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 2 Land Speeders with H. flamer and M. melta + Wolf Scouts x 5 with meltagun = 225, gives you 23 pts to spend else where, maybe giving the Mark of the Wulfen to a Scout for some combat punch on the cheap? I've always fielded a Land Speeder of Love (Gift from the missus) + Wolf Scout Pack on the cheap (I like them) But I'm reconsidering Wolf Scouts in most of my lists because in the past 4 games... they're simply not pulling their weight (they don't show up on time, or on the wrong edge!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2683911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 @Brother Ramses, I'd rather go with bikes if you want speed and to harass your opponents in their flanks. @matt01price, as for the dreads, if you have a problem with a single dread walking around cause they get topped instantly. Wouldn't having two of them eventually do the same by your logic? it's a reason why I suggested D. You have Long Fangs to take care of anything dangerous for your dreadnought, not to mention that one pack of scouts to deal with your opponents armor. It's a balance from A and B. I think the problem why most people try to stay away from the one dreadnought is not using the dread tactically. It's all about target priority! have your dread choose the right target, and get yourself in combat and have him eat troops. I can see why most people are deterred with having the one dread, but I think its best to have a plan set in mind ahead of time for your dread to accomplish. Bikes were not one of the options given. Given the lack of speed in his army, the options given, speeders are the best choice with the options given. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2684407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt01price Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 thanks to all for the brilliant replies!! they've really helped, i'm now down to speeders vs dreds..... i've heard too many stories about scouts being unreliable however tricky they can be for and enemy to deal with (but you've still gotta live the guys even if just in theory) and on i side note i owe you all an ale :P cheers praise russ Matt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2684667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 thanks to all for the brilliant replies!! they've really helped, i'm now down to speeders vs dreds..... i've heard too many stories about scouts being unreliable however tricky they can be for and enemy to deal with (but you've still gotta live the guys even if just in theory) and on i side note i owe you all an ale :P cheers praise russ Matt Sorry to ask the question again, but are your Greys in Rhinos, and are there any other APCs in your list? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2684690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastHuzzah Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Speeders are the best! I never leave home without a pair w/ HF & MM. The points investment is well worth the ruination they cause. I don't say can because IMHO they are useful 100% of the time. Either they are drawing fire away from my Rhinos/RBs/Vindis/LR/LF, or making back double their points in the way of 1 tank kill. If you are afraid of them getting shot up before doing anything, there is always deep strike which will still let you fire one weapon due to the fact it is a fast vehicle. Scouts are another unit that I love, and work very well for me; rarely to they end up useless and can easily make their points back, again with 1 tank or backfield squad kill. Cheers, Matt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2684694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 If you don't have any transports, I would run the Dreads. They offer great help to Marines. 1] You have a good gun firing away. 2] You have something that insta-kills multi-wound things in mêlée. MegaNobz, TWC, Crisis suits, Nid warriors, etc. Besides the Tau, these things can be horrid against Marines. Only monstrous creatures beat down Dreads. So you need the Greys to protect it from that ;) 3] Take a HF. It is great against most things and covers the weakness of the MM, if you so chose to take one. see post # 14 DREADNOUGHTS, in my signature. +++ If you have transports, I would run Speeders. Without APCs to provide another threat to your foe [well, the passengers really, but it needs anti-AV guns fired at it anyway] your Speeders are just too obvious a target. Sending full Rhinos and Speeders together helps keep both things safe. see post # 18 LAND SPEEDERS. Unfortunately I have not updated it with regards to 5th ed. typhoon missile launchers. But you have the excellent Fangs squads, so don't worry about it :) The MM HF combo is really where it is at. I hope that helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2685192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt01price Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 sorry for any confusion... yes the grey hunters are in rhinos and other than those 3 there are no other armoured targets in the list Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2685413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlbitz Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Looks like you need a Wolf Lord. Why? because every Great Comapany should have one. Oh, and they are just awesome... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224399-248pts-to-spend-dreds-scouts-or-speeders/#findComment-2685458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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