Librarians, chaplains, other specialists - how many?

[madocyw]

Howdy all,

 

I'm looking at the new GK sprues and thinking that I could do an awesome number of librarians. That got me thinking - how many librarians would be in a chapter like the DA? And to extend that question, how many chaplains and interrogator-chaplains... For that matter, apothecaries and techmarines?

 

For the librarians, 10-20? 20 seems like a lot, but given the role that the librarians play outside of just maintaining records and acting as communications officers, it would make sense that there would be a good number of them.

For the chaplains I would guess at least 10 regular chaplains, one for each company, and then how many interrogator chaplains? 5? 10?

[HsojVvad]

Well seeing how DA have over 5000, there would be alot in there. Now if you are talking about showing "face value" so they look like a chapter, I am not so sure. Maybe they have the same amout as Ultramarines do, so they seem like a codex chapter.

 

I would expect them to have more in secret to flush out the Fallen but that is only guessing and not facts to prove it at all.

[shabbadoo]

Likely a few dozen of each.

 

Apothecaries- 1 minimum assigned to each Company, and likely another dozen or so(plus trainees). All of them are overseen by the Master of the Apothecarion.

 

Chaplains- 1 assigned to each Company(10), another 12+ for special duties and to oversee trainees, and 6 or so Interrogator-Chaplains to do what they do best. All of them are overseen by Grand Master of Chaplains Sapphon.

 

Techmarines- probably 3-5 per Company(perhaps twice that for the Deathwing due to all of the TDA, which is noted as being complex tech), plus a few dozen servitors per company; plus perhaps 6-10 for the care of the Chapter's other auxiliary equipment/vehicles. Those numbers are way, way low seeing as we aren't even considering the Techmarines that maintain the Dark Angel's fleet. All of them are overseen by the Master of the Forge.

 

Librarians- This group will likely be in area of two dozen or so, with about 10-12 Lexicaniums, 8-10 Codiciers, and 6-8 Epistolaries, and 2-4 Chief Librarians. All of them are overseen by Grand Master of Librarians Ezekiel.

 

Some of those numbers might seem high but remember that these groups have many duties outside of battle. The training of Librarians is guaranteed to be even more harsh than it is for the average DA marine due to the "whispers from The Warp" they are more prone to coming in contact with. "There will be NO more Fallen!" basically. :lol: Particularly in regard to Librarians, numbers are more prone to fluctuation due to the crop of aspirants being rich or poor as it regards psychic potential. The total number of marines in a Chapter, including all auxiliary staff, is much higher than 1,000(1,500 would be more accurate).

[Temper]

Well seeing how DA have over 5000, there would be alot in there.

 

The Dark Angels are a 1000 battle brothers like most other chapters, the unforgiven (the dark angels and their succesors) are mentioned in the codex as such numbers.

I think that the DA have the same amount of librarians as other chapters, it all depends on the ammount of recruits qualified to become librarians.

As for chaplains i think we have a good deal more then other chapters. The secretive nature, the hunt for the fallen, interogating the fallen, making sure the marines don't become fallen and so on.

As for numbers both C:SM as C:BA have a chapter organisation chart stating how many members the Librarium and the Reclusiam (or whatever the chaplains are called)

[NightrawenII]

Techmarines- probably 3-5 per Company(perhaps twice that for the Deathwing due to all of the TDA, which is noted as being complex tech),

This is way too much. I'd say 1-3 per company. The Imperial stuff is made to be resilient and durable.

+

The respective battle-brother is responsible for taking care of his wargear and weapons. The same aply for the vehicles crew. If they are able to repair the Rhino on battlefield, I don't see reason why they shouldn't be able to do a regular maintaince.

[DAG42]

Well seeing how DA have over 5000, there would be alot in there.

 

The Dark Angels are a 1000 battle brothers like most other chapters, the unforgiven (the dark angels and their successors) are mentioned in the codex as such numbers.

I think that the DA have the same amount of librarians as other chapters, it all depends on the amount of recruits qualified to become librarians.

As for chaplains i think we have a good deal more then other chapters. The secretive nature, the hunt for the fallen, interogating the fallen, making sure the marines don't become fallen and so on.

As for numbers both C:SM as C:BA have a chapter organisation chart stating how many members the Librarium and the Reclusiam (or whatever the chaplains are called)

 

While it appears that we are only 1,000, the dex also lets slip that all unforgiven answer to the Supreme Grand Master of the DA. So in essence we are 6,000 + in chapter size.

 

I'd say there could be a high numbers of techs per company with a ton of servitors to do the maint. Techs do most of the driving of company vehicles not battle bros. So if you think of how many vehs. are in each company there could be a ton of those as well.

[Valkyrion]

While it appears that we are only 1,000, the dex also lets slip that all unforgiven answer to the Supreme Grand Master of the DA. So in essence we are 6,000 + in chapter size.

 

 

You can't look at it like that. Thats like saying 'my cousin is a millionaire so I must be a millionaire too'.

They are all autonomous chapters that have a common hierarchy. 9th Company reserve marine Alfredo of the Angels of Redemption will have no idea that his chapters command is tied to Azrael, and I'm fairly sure that only in matters of extreme need would the DA invoke that control. They certainly can't order their successors to stop fighting this tyranid army and go and fight that ork one instead.

[Makers]

Techmarines- probably 3-5 per Company(perhaps twice that for the Deathwing due to all of the TDA, which is noted as being complex tech),

This is way too much. I'd say 1-3 per company. The Imperial stuff is made to be resilient and durable.

+

The respective battle-brother is responsible for taking care of his wargear and weapons. The same aply for the vehicles crew. If they are able to repair the Rhino on battlefield, I don't see reason why they shouldn't be able to do a regular maintaince.

 

Exactly.

1-3 is more than enough for a Company.

[EPK]

While it appears that we are only 1,000, the dex also lets slip that all unforgiven answer to the Supreme Grand Master of the DA. So in essence we are 6,000 + in chapter size.

 

 

You can't look at it like that. Thats like saying 'my cousin is a millionaire so I must be a millionaire too'.

They are all autonomous chapters that have a common hierarchy. 9th Company reserve marine Alfredo of the Angels of Redemption will have no idea that his chapters command is tied to Azrael, and I'm fairly sure that only in matters of extreme need would the DA invoke that control. They certainly can't order their successors to stop fighting this tyranid army and go and fight that ork one instead.

 

 

I think you are making assumptions here. The amount of control that Azrael holds is noted as him being the "master even over the the Grand Masters of the Dark Angel's Successor Chapters". There is no information about how they interact but the wording it quite clear. As we have nothing else to go by, we can only say that the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angel's is the master of all the Unforgiven.

 

Sure a regular battle brother may not be privy to this information, which again is speculation, obviously the HQs of each successor chapter are.

 

Please, we just lost another bit of uniqueness (though TDA banner/apothecary in other chapters was inevitable, in fact it makes no sense that other chapters wouldn't have such a common Astartes position), let us keep our little concept of the Unforgiven secretly operating as a Legion.

[shabbadoo]

The OP's question was

 

"how many librarians would be in a chapter like the DA? And to extend that question, how many chaplains and interrogator-chaplains... For that matter, apothecaries and techmarines?", not "how many librarians would be in all of the whole Unforgiven? And to extend that question, how many chaplains and interrogator-chaplains... For that matter, apothecaries and techmarines?"

 

I know the distinction between "A chapter like DA" and "The Unforgiven" is terribly difficult to make, but... :P :P

 

As to the Company's Techmarines, the battle brothers do indeed look after their own gear and vehicles, but only for maintenance. Stripping guns and change the fluids in vehicles is a bit different from actual repairs from battle damage to armor, weapons, and vehicles which requires specialized training. Can you imagine just one Techmarine fixing every single bit of kit after one battle? Three at the minimum per Company to keep it battle ready at all times.

[EPK]

Well, to be fair, it was only HsojVvad that mentioned the number of the Unforgiven and the rest of us going off on a tangent to explain what he was really getting at.

 

Shame on your HsojVvad, feel the wrath of our large bold italic letters.

 

On topic, I concur with shabbadoo. Perhaps there is one high ranking Techmarine of each Company, but surely he has underling Techmarines. Though technically, by the Chapter Organizational chart, Techmarines belong to the Armory, so I guess they are attached to other companies as needed and might wind up serving different companies at different times.

 

I wonder, would Rhino drivers be considered some degree of Techmarines? If so, that would place many more of them who were actually part of a company.

[madocyw]

Well, to be fair, it was only HsojVvad that mentioned the number of the Unforgiven and the rest of us going off on a tangent to explain what he was really getting at.

 

Shame on your HsojVvad, feel the wrath of our large bold italic letters.

 

On topic, I concur with shabbadoo. Perhaps there is one high ranking Techmarine of each Company, but surely he has underling Techmarines. Though technically, by the Chapter Organizational chart, Techmarines belong to the Armory, so I guess they are attached to other companies as needed and might wind up serving different companies at different times.

 

I wonder, would Rhino drivers be considered some degree of Techmarines? If so, that would place many more of them who were actually part of a company.

 

Wow. Who knew that it would be such an interesting thread.

 

Anyway, I was wondering about the techmarine's role in a line company, and who the drivers are. I was thinking that it would be a waste of manpower to put a marine in a rhino just to drive it - why not have the machine spirit do the driving, and have the squad leader in charge controlling the decisions of where to point the thing. Same goes with the razorback. With the predator, vindicator and whirlwinds, it would make sense that there would be a battle brother in the tank as the gunner/commander - as well as the land raiders and other tanks - in the description of Chronus in the C:SM, the description of the tank commanders makes it sounds like they are seconded from battle company roles, and aren't full techmarines - but again, waste of manpower - why understaff your battle company squads in order to drive/gun tanks? Maybe the role of the 9th company is to also provide gunners, and the experienced/skill gunners get promoted to squadron commanders and possibly become techmarines... I'd also hazard a guess that the scouts/candidates would play a supporting role in this, where a component of their basic training would be as assistants to the techmarines, or as gunners/loaders in the tanks. So not out of the realm of possibility that there would be 3-5 full Techmarines seconded to each line company to maintain vehicles and equipment, and then the tank crew/crew members being responsible for keeping the machine clean and annointed with the appropriate holy scented goop. Maybe more would be assigned based on the length of a campaign or the assets assigned to a battlegroup.

 

And where do the pilots fit into all of this? Thunderhawks, tempests and other flyers need pilots/gunners.

 

And the general maintenance of a Marine's gear would be up to the Marine, and possibly the chapter serfs - there are non-techmarine artificers in the Chapter's forge.

 

I'm considering putting together the entirety of the DA Librarium as I see it after the GK parts are released. Would be fun to model a junior lexicanium, or a scout/candidate who has been placed under the watch of the librarians. Along those lines - do you think that the DA would allow astropaths aboard the fleet ships - there's no way around having a scion of the Navigators on every ship, but would they allow other psykers anywhere near their operations?

[puck]

Particularly in regard to Librarians, numbers are more prone to fluctuation due to the crop of aspirants being rich or poor as it regards psychic potential.

 

 

This raises an interesting point of weather or not every marine that displays psychic potential no matter how small must be inducted into the librarium. Would they leave a potential recruit out of the running because he showed psychic potential and the chapter already had their quota of psykers met?

[shabbadoo]

Shame on your HsojVvad, feel the wrath of our large bold italic letters.

:) ;)

 

I wonder, would Rhino drivers be considered some degree of Techmarines? If so, that would place many more of them who were actually part of a company.

Vehicle crew are not described as Techmarines, but the models bits do at lest bear the cog symbol so I think they must be considered trainees at the very least, as marines are often given tasks they are seen to have an aptitude for.

[NightrawenII]

As to the Company's Techmarines, the battle brothers do indeed look after their own gear and vehicles, but only for maintenance. Stripping guns and change the fluids in vehicles is a bit different from actual repairs from battle damage to armor, weapons, and vehicles which requires specialized training. Can you imagine just one Techmarine fixing every single bit of kit after one battle? Three at the minimum per Company to keep it battle ready at all times.

The Armoury comprises all of the Chapter's Techmarines and Servitors. The Techmarines are responsible for maintaining all of the Chapter's wargear and war machines. This includes the Chapter's armoured vehicles, transports and the various ships of the Fleet. They oversee the work of the Artificers, yet more non-combatant human serfs of the Chapter. The Artificers fabricate, maintain and repair weapons, armour and banners for the Chapter. They are particularly adept at modifying wargear to incorporate badges, icons and other honours.

~ Insignium Astartes

 

Also, the cog-symbol on the crew-models is indication of some tech-training.

 

Anyway, I was wondering about the techmarine's role in a line company, and who the drivers are.

Every Company is also expected to maintain and crew a number of vehicles, in particular ubiquitous Rhino and Razorback armoured transports, for the officers and squads. Most Companies will also have some Dreadnoughts attached to bolster the fighting capability of the unit.

 

In theory, the actual number of combatants in a Company can exceed the notional one hundred Space Marines noted by the Codex. However in practice the Companies are rarely at full strength as constant battle takes its toll and replacements are not always available to fill the ranks.

~ Insignium Astartes

 

It is possible that the driver is the eleventh marine in the squad. Just a thought.

 

With the predator, vindicator and whirlwinds, it would make sense that there would be a battle brother in the tank as the gunner/commander - as well as the land raiders and other tanks - in the description of Chronus in the C:SM, the description of the tank commanders makes it sounds like they are seconded from battle company roles, and aren't full techmarines - but again, waste of manpower - why understaff your battle company squads in order to drive/gun tanks?

It's my understanding that the staff of Armoury is removed from their position in the Company(s) and kept separate, but this is just assumption.

 

This raises an interesting point of weather or not every marine that displays psychic potential no matter how small must be inducted into the librarium. Would they leave a potential recruit out of the running because he showed psychic potential and the chapter already had their quota of psykers met?

No, untrained psyker is like ticking nuclear warhead.

[EPK]

Thanks Nightrawen, very informative.

 

I agree again with shabbadoo as far as Techmarines in training go. Literature has noted marines as drivers, so perhaps they are trainees. I believe I heard that Techmarines spend some time actually training on Mars at some point - seems like a big deal so only the best trainees probably go.

 

So not out of the realm of possibility that there would be 3-5 full Techmarines seconded to each line company to maintain vehicles and equipment, and then the tank crew/crew members being responsible for keeping the machine clean and annointed with the appropriate holy scented goop. Maybe more would be assigned based on the length of a campaign or the assets assigned to a battlegroup.

 

And where do the pilots fit into all of this? Thunderhawks, tempests and other flyers need pilots/gunners.

 

In Purging of Kadillus, two Techmarines are present and are listed under "armoury" as we would expect, separate from the 3rd Company. I believe one Techmarine was flying a Thunderhawk at some point (though I can't remember if he was the pilot or copilot) and there was a marine rear gunner. Only those two were mentioned - perhaps there is also gun servitors that simply aren't worth talking about. At another point, a normal marine was the pilot.

 

Tempests are Land Speeders, if our Ravenwing have them, they would be crewed by marines. In relation, the Stormraven model has a marine pilot as well and a gun servitor.

 

I'm considering putting together the entirety of the DA Librarium as I see it after the GK parts are released. Would be fun to model a junior lexicanium, or a scout/candidate who has been placed under the watch of the librarians. Along those lines - do you think that the DA would allow astropaths aboard the fleet ships - there's no way around having a scion of the Navigators on every ship, but would they allow other psykers anywhere near their operations?

That seems like a cool idea... For modelling purposes, I suppose even a aspirant librarian would need some form of psychic hood?

 

Great question... I'd say Astropath are a necessity. I'd also say there is no reason that we do not have our own Astropaths raised on and totally loyal to the Rock. On the flip side, couldn't a Librarian also learn the skills of an Astropath? It says they are most common psykers, surely high ranking DA Librarians could handle the most secret of information. Or maybe it is best to never speak such secrets across the warp, where anyone could be listening. Some more debate on it can be found here.

[Vodunius]

I may be mistaken but I understand it all Land Raiders always have a techmarine custodian whilst other vehicles do not - and the vehicle accessory sprue was originally created for the Land Raider kit hence having a techmarine on it. Sergeant Cronus certainy isn't a techmarine and doesn't have any cog iconography on him.

[incarnus]

Techmarines- probably 3-5 per Company(perhaps twice that for the Deathwing due to all of the TDA, which is noted as being complex tech)

 

Tech-priests of the Machine God may not join the Deathwing.

[Mystic Lemur]

Techmarines- probably 3-5 per Company(perhaps twice that for the Deathwing due to all of the TDA, which is noted as being complex tech)

 

Tech-priests of the Machine God may not join the Deathwing.

 

I don't believe he meant that they were part of the Deathwing, just assigned to take care of all the armor. It is an important distinction though, so thanks for mentioning it.