Vanguard is the new termie :)

[Brother_Ovis]

Yes, as the provocative title of the topic suggests, I have this crazy idea and I need to bounce it off you guys.

 

I play Raven Guard, which gives me lots of often suboptimal tactically but uber-optimal fluff&coolwise (IMO) army composition ideas. The main theme is 'mobility' and 'fast attack'. Also being a man who likes to go against the grain might be an issue here :)

 

So I was looking at the vanguards and somehow felt this is a type of a unit I just need to include in my army. It just seems right to have them, you know what I mean? But when you look at their stats, abilities and points cost it turns out that they are just an assault squad only ridiculously expensive.

 

Or are they?

 

After much consideration I decided upon two options to choose from.

 

1) 5-man squad with jump packs and power weapons, sgt with powerfist (for dealing with multiple wound enemies) with a JP equipped chaplain and perhaps Korvydae. 18" effective charge range, 20 attacks with "to wound" rerolls, no saves allowed for the enemy and a chance to break away next turn if the resistance met is too heavy to deal with.

 

2) 5-man squad with jump packs and double lightning claws, with chaplain. The same attack stats, but all missed "to hits" and "to wounds" rerolled and no save allowed. That sounds killer to me, if anything.

 

(I don't really count the Heroic Intervention rule as it seems to unreliable to me with the Deep Strike scattering and all.)

 

The problem is - it's really expensive pointswise. Option 1 is about 240pts, option 2 is over 300 pts. "That is stupid", one might say, "assault terminators cost 200pts with the same weapons and better armour AND inv save!". And that is correct - only that the termies NEED their 250pts LR to actually do anything other than slog across the battlefield trying to get anywhere near their enemy. So their effective points cost is more like 450pts. Granted, the LR is also here, but there's other things you can buy for the 150-200pts difference.

 

What do you think?

[Ethrion]

For me I either have 5 heroically intervene with storm shields and 1 powerfist or I have them in a rhino/razorback with storm shields.

[Gv0zD]

Feel like I need to put my two cents.

 

I play blood angels and find vanguard to be a very good unit. I run all jump list, and at 1500 I take 10 men vanguard that are combat squadded. I equip them with 2 lightning claws, 2 power weapons, a thunder hammer and sarge's blade. I spread te weappns between two squads. No stormshields. I haven't payed many games with them, but they performed well enough.

[the jeske]

first of all a vanguard with shriek+ chapy or just chapy , even at 5 man[and meq units shouldnt realy do hth with under 7-8 dudes] , do not cost 300 pts. A loyalist LR with a PoTMS comes at same cost or cheaper [and can do more , because no matter how we look at it the veng unit will offten not work or wont have good targets , a LR with TH/SS termis works always] .

second thing is the assault thing. sm dex does not support it very well , specialy when you want to use jump troops . the BA dex is for that , priests , possible FC more hth HQs works just plain better.

 

third is the actual damge the unit does for what damge it can take . At its bigest it is 7 dudes in power armor , no SS , no transport to protect them and it will be at least two turns till they get in to hth . there is a goo chance that offten the unit when it actualy gets to charge will [maybe] smoke one unit and then you will be looking a 1-2 and 2xHQ[that is if the fist didnt kill/ target the chapy and/or shriek] .So after a single charge the unit more or less stops working , not this wouldnt be bad if the unit was cheap , but it isnt . It costs a lot and in the 2HQ version means you take no hood for your army .

[Brother_Ovis]

first of all a vanguard with shriek+ chapy or just chapy , even at 5 man[and meq units shouldnt realy do hth with under 7-8 dudes] , do not cost 300 pts. A loyalist LR with a PoTMS comes at same cost or cheaper [and can do more , because no matter how we look at it the veng unit will offten not work or wont have good targets , a LR with TH/SS termis works always] .

 

Yes, I meant the cost of the squad itself, the HQ choices are detachable so I don't count them in - also because you pick them anyway.

 

second thing is the assault thing. sm dex does not support it very well , specialy when you want to use jump troops . the BA dex is for that , priests , possible FC more hth HQs works just plain better.

 

Well, that may be right, but as I mentioned I play Raven Guard, which unfortunately (or fortunately, I don't really know) means SM dex AND lots of jump troops - at least if one's going to stick to the fluff.

 

 

third is the actual damge the unit does for what damge it can take . At its bigest it is 7 dudes in power armor , no SS , no transport to protect them and it will be at least two turns till they get in to hth . there is a goo chance that offten the unit when it actualy gets to charge will [maybe] smoke one unit and then you will be looking a 1-2 and 2xHQ[that is if the fist didnt kill/ target the chapy and/or shriek] .So after a single charge the unit more or less stops working , not this wouldnt be bad if the unit was cheap , but it isnt . It costs a lot and in the 2HQ version means you take no hood for your army .

 

Doesn't it all depend on the opponent? If thrown against a big bunch of Ork Nobz - yes, they might have some trouble, but the same can be said about any marine unit that enters CC with them (just recently I had a terminator squad wiped out by them quite efficiently), but I imagine that if they smashed into something not so utterly CC oriented as Orks they could actually do pretty good. I guess :lol:

[the jeske]

Yes, I meant the cost of the squad itself, the HQ choices are detachable so I don't count them in - also because you pick them anyway.

well but there is a false logic to that . your saying a LR+ termis cost more then a vengaurd unit of 5 man , but a unit of 5 vengaurd doesnt have enough of A to inflict enough dmg to the opposing army for the points it costs . And it is not cheaper then the LR+termis , if you add the HQs .

Also a LR is very detachable too . In fact it is more flexible. PoTMS , it can work alone , while a single chapy or shriek can not , so to make both of those realy detachable you need to run another hth unit [because they do nothig for objective camping/death avoiding tacs].

 

 

Doesn't it all depend on the opponent? If thrown against a big bunch of Ork Nobz - yes, they might have some trouble, but the same can be said about any marine unit that enters CC with them (just recently I had a terminator squad wiped out by them quite efficiently), but I imagine that if they smashed into something not so utterly CC oriented as Orks they could actually do pretty good.

against orks you will get tar pited [30 dudes fearless for one phase at least , even if you get lucky with rolls] and 5 sv+3 actualy can die from normal attacks . you dont need to run in to noobz. same with with SW , if you run in to a normal sized squad they have more A and a power weapon or weapons[depands if they have a WG or not] and the rending A from MotW . Sure with the help of two I5 hqs you will beat the unit . question is how many of your models will be left alive after figting this one ~200pts +/- pts unit ?

 

with the BAs you have two problems . first if you run in to mefo range[and if you took 2 HQs you have no hood] the unit is dead . second thing is that BAs are fast it is not so obvious that you will get to charge them .

 

Against IG .. well if an IG player lets 7 meq class unit anywhere near a possible charge and they are alive , then he is either doing something wrong or he should buy new dice.

 

It is more or less the same with armies or simiular game play [so chaos=sw , IG=razorspam builds , nids=orks in the tarpited part and if you get in to hth with a tyrant or nid death star your unit dies ]

[The DeathJester]

Im tempted to put kantor in a 10 Man Squad of Vanguard in a landraider.

 

His rules of giving additional attacks to those units around him is pretty incredible.

 

You might ask me why I don't use a honourguard, well genarally speaking, the vanguard have more customizable and deadlier weaponry in close combat.

 

Might also include a Chaplain for re-roll to hits..

[Brother_Ovis]

Yes, I meant the cost of the squad itself, the HQ choices are detachable so I don't count them in - also because you pick them anyway.

well but there is a false logic to that . your saying a LR+ termis cost more then a vengaurd unit of 5 man , but a unit of 5 vengaurd doesnt have enough of A to inflict enough dmg to the opposing army for the points it costs . And it is not cheaper then the LR+termis , if you add the HQs .

Also a LR is very detachable too . In fact it is more flexible. PoTMS , it can work alone , while a single chapy or shriek can not , so to make both of those realy detachable you need to run another hth unit [because they do nothig for objective camping/death avoiding tacs].

 

That is a point. But - you take HQ units anyway, as they are mandatory (well, at least one), while a LR is not, so the LR cost is really an extra cost while the HQ is not.

 

Anyway, you got me thinking and calculating. Lets make a little comparison:

 

LC vanguards 260pts - LC terminators 200pts

THSS vanguards 335pts - THSS terminators still 200pts

 

First of all - why THE SAME equipment with both units generates DIFFERENT points cost? Assuming that the base cost of a unit is constant, the difference between two builds should equal the price of the weapons. Here it is clearly not the case - with terminators LCs and THSS cost exactly the same, with vanguards the latter ar 15pts more expensive, AND vanguard weapons are generally more expensive than respective terminator weapons. WHY IS THAT?

 

Second - vanguards have clearly worse armour save, which means that according to the authors the ability to sweeping advance and frag grenades are worth over 27pts a model. Over, because terminators are harder to kill. No Heroic Intervention, because we're talking no jump packs here...

 

So in total - vanguards are 30% more expensive and less likely to survive combat than assault terminators.

 

So WHAT ARE THEY FOR? I mean really, there's got to be something to justify all that.

[Leonaides]

power armour. So they can be transported in rhino-variants, or you can have more in a raider. Flexibility costs points, if you choose not to use it thats your decision. Besides, what possible reason would you have to run those weapon options like that?

[Gv0zD]

They are indeed flexible, and heroic intervention is their major advantage. If you don't use HI, you'd probably be better off taking termies. If you run jumpy army Vnguard woild be of more use.

[Brother_Ovis]

power armour. So they can be transported in rhino-variants, or you can have more in a raider. Flexibility costs points, if you choose not to use it thats your decision. Besides, what possible reason would you have to run those weapon options like that?

 

LR and rhino can take both max 10 marines (in C:SM there is no unit larger than 10 men). 5 THSS vanguards in a rhino cost 370 pts (zero upgrades), 5 termies in a Redeemer cost 440 pts. Rhino has no offensive weaponry worth mentioning, much worse armour and the occupants cannot assault right out of it, which means they have to withstand a round of point-blank shootout before they charge - and the enemy can even get out of the charge range altogether. All that you can have for those 70pts of difference - plus you get terminator saves.

 

So how exactly is power armour better in this case?

 

Flexibility costs points, if you choose not to use it thats your decision. Besides, what possible reason would you have to run those weapon options like that?

 

I'm comparing theoretical situations of battlefield usage of a unit to find what are vanguards good for, because I love the idea of them - I just don't want to waste lots of precious bits on a unit that will turn out totally useless (meaning "marginally better than an ordinary assault squad").

 

They are indeed flexible, and heroic intervention is their major advantage. If you don't use HI, you'd probably be better off taking termies. If you run jumpy army Vnguard woild be of more use.

 

Heroic intervention only works with jump packs. I like jump packs. However what are the odds that the squad will a) deepstrike safely B) deepstrike within 6" of the enemy? I'm not really good with statistics but off the top of my head I'd say it's no more than 15-20% chance, maybe less, depending on the terrain density etc. It is a cool bonus if it happens, but it doesn't seem something to build your list upon :)

[Gv0zD]

If you go deepstrike route, droppods with locators may help, or scouts. Vv won't arrive at first turn so you may have time to prepare.

[Hemal]

The moment you take Vanguard with any reasonable investment in poitns is the moment they drive your battle-line and strategy. They becaome your proverbial basket of eggs in any normal sized battles. It can be argued that Terminators are teh same, but with their 3+ inv save, TH/SS termies are far superior at taking damage and can be used independently of their transport if requried. I dare you deploy vanguards without at least 1 100+ point character to back them up and see how quickly they are eaten by enemy firepower or dedicated combat units.

 

As for points discrepancies. TH and SS costs so much more on Vangaurd vs Termies because termies ALREADY have an inv save, and a 2+ armour save. The SS is only activated when the enemy can bypass a 2+ say and the player is compensated for the fact they have already paid for a small inv save. However there is an argument that TH/SS termies are undercosted, which is reasonable to argue.

 

In comparison - vanguard benefit massively from carrying storm shields - they now get a 3+ as against prettty much ANYTHING, and lose nothing as a result.

[Rymeer]

power armour. So they can be transported in rhino-variants, or you can have more in a raider. Flexibility costs points, if you choose not to use it thats your decision. Besides, what possible reason would you have to run those weapon options like that?

 

LR and rhino can take both max 10 marines (in C:SM there is no unit larger than 10 men). 5 THSS vanguards in a rhino cost 370 pts (zero upgrades), 5 termies in a Redeemer cost 440 pts. Rhino has no offensive weaponry worth mentioning, much worse armour and the occupants cannot assault right out of it, which means they have to withstand a round of point-blank shootout before they charge - and the enemy can even get out of the charge range altogether. All that you can have for those 70pts of difference - plus you get terminator saves.

 

So how exactly is power armour better in this case?

 

So, obviously you never deploy your vanguard behind a rhino/razorback and march 'em into combat? The rhino acts like a wall, until it's killed, and if it should NOT explode, it then becomes terrain, giving your vanguard squad a +4 cover save (which for all intents and purposes acts like giving the whole squad storm shields!).

 

Believe me. Opponents get frustrated when facing a line of cheap cover moving forwards towards their line, which when dealt with, usually ends up giving your tactical and vanguard squads cover saves to safely blaze away at their gun lines. ( oh, another consideration... more than one squad can use a destroyed rhino for cover! ).

 

Doing this forces your opponent to eventually march forwards under fire to pry your marines out of their 'bunker'. This allows for the chance to move and charge ( total 12" ) into your opponent's squad if you want to, or stand your ground and you STILL get the cover save, which makes your men harder to kill than his.

 

Oh, and a rhino 'wall' should be spaced about 2 1/2" apart, so that no enemy model can pass between the vehicles to charge the troops marching behind them. This is the old rule of: no model may may move within 1" of an enemy model unless it's charging said model. This prevents foot sloggers from charging your troops marching behind your vehicles, and forces them to deal with the rhino first. Which, even if they are successful, merely makes the rhino into a +4 cover save 'bunker' that our troops can immediately move into!

 

I cannot tell you how many times I have watched an opponent slag my rhinos... only to have me thank them, and move my troops into the new 'bunker' and promptly, for all intents and purposes, ignore his insta-kill weaponry from then on. :D

 

So, don't discount the usefulness of a Rhino/Razorback line your troops can march behind and into combat!

 

Just my thoughts,

 

Rymeer

[Leonaides]

ovis- i assume you do know how to charge out of a rhino, so i'll pretend you didn't just assume you 'have' to take a round of point-blank shooting on the squad. I'll also ask you whats the value of being able to sweeping advance. That in itself is probaly one of the biggest advantages pa has over tda.

[Brother_Ovis]

ovis- i assume you do know how to charge out of a rhino, so i'll pretend you didn't just assume you 'have' to take a round of point-blank shooting on the squad. I'll also ask you whats the value of being able to sweeping advance. That in itself is probaly one of the biggest advantages pa has over tda.

 

1) Actually no, I've never charged out of a Rhino. I'm no veteran player and I'm the first to admit it. Actually that's why I ask all those irritating questions :D But - assuming that you have to disembark within 2" of the access point, with standard 6" move and 6" charge you need to drive up to, I don't know, 5-8" to the enemy to reach him in your next round around the standing (and hopefully not exploded) Rhino. If I was facing a vanguard squad waiting behind a Rhino to jump at me, I wouldn't wait for it but rather move my full 6" away, ready my weapons and wait for them to show up. Or am I missing something?

 

2) Yes, sweeping advances are a great asset, but as someone here already pointed out, chances are that if and when enemy breaks, there might not be enough vanguards left to actually perform one :D

 

But, as this topic was started with a specific question in mind - what do you think about taking vanguards and where's the thin line between them being effective/points wasted?

[the jeske]

That is a point. But - you take HQ units anyway, as they are mandatory (well, at least one), while a LR is not, so the LR cost is really an extra cost while the HQ is not.

yes but a unit of venguard without a baby sitter in form of an HQ bounces of any hth unit out there. even a 10 man tac has a chance to beat it because of fist attrition and even if they do win what are youg oing to do with a 1-2 model hth unit ?

Assuming that the base cost of a unit is constant,

it is not. it is tied to the fact what ever GW wants the unit to sell or not [which more or less goes like this . sucked last edition , gets buffed. good last edition so everyone has it , made bad].

 

deepstrike safely cool.gif deepstrike within 6" of the enemy?

well if you play BAs or shriek and your dudes have fleet , then it is ok. [shriek does give fleet to RAS right ? becuase otherwise they dont make sense at all].

[Meatman]

I don't like vanguard.

Worse saves and higher cost then terminators, and honour guard, worse survivability then command squads.

 

The main benefit of them is the jump packs. They can be fast without relying on transports, so that rifleman dread wont take out their manoeuvrability turn 1.

 

 

Now they are compared to assault marines.

 

Vanguard are better in the following ways:

Extra attack, heroic intervention, wider range of weapons, can take lots of storm shields.

Assault marine squad better in the following ways:

Jump packs are free, drastically cheaper.

 

10 man assault squad with jump packs = 190

10 man vanguard vet squad with jump packs = 325 (But they do have a power weapon)

 

That's before any other upgrades or HQs attached. Are the benefits mentioned above, really worth the extra 135 points? (Well, 120 if you take the cost of the power weapon).

Assault marines can also be made troops by taking Korvydae.

 

 

There is no real place for them in our codex, in my opinion. BA have it better as they have access to cheaper VV and descent of angels to take advantage of HI.

 

 

I run Shrike with a 10 man assault squad with thunderhammer. If I have the points and the HQ slot, then a chaplain too.

Shrike and the assault marines deal with infantry, thunderhammer deals with heavier stuff or to instagib HQs.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

VVs are awesome, in theory. In practice, they're severely overcosted, especially with any upgrades at all, in comparison to other similar squads (assault terminators, sternguard vets, RAS). At their points cost you should get a jump pack standard, and wargear costs should be lessened significantly. They should be balanced with assault terminators, sacrificing durability for mobility.

 

They are capable of doing things no other unit in C:SM can do (namely threatening everything within range with scads and scads of mixed power weapon attacks), but in order to equip and use them effectively you pretty much have to build your army around them.

[Leonaides]

1) Actually no, I've never charged out of a Rhino. I'm no veteran player and I'm the first to admit it. Actually that's why I ask all those irritating questions But - assuming that you have to disembark within 2" of the access point, with standard 6" move and 6" charge you need to drive up to, I don't know, 5-8" to the enemy to reach him in your next round around the standing (and hopefully not exploded) Rhino. If I was facing a vanguard squad waiting behind a Rhino to jump at me, I wouldn't wait for it but rather move my full 6" away, ready my weapons and wait for them to show up. Or am I missing something?

 

Ok, very basic outline -

Turn 1, drive Rhino forward somewhere between 10-12" (dependant on how close the enemy deployed to his front line, if he's likely to also close distance to you, etc). Turn Rhino sideways, staying level with the front of your Rhino whiel it was facing forward (side AV also 11, so no loss there). Pop smoke. Take incoming fire, if you survive all good, proceed to turn 2. Turn 2 - deploy form Rhino 2" from side door closes to enemy before it moves, move 6", prepare to charge... Turn 2 you can be charging something up to 26.5"ish from your original start point. If Rhino destroyed during enemy shooting, if enemy has moved forwards and you might be in charge range, deploy out of rear or side of rhino furthest away from enemy, putting you hopefully still out of charge range by hem. Hunker down, use the cover form the destroyed rhino and prepare to move forward and assualt the squad that moved closer to you.

 

If you've forced the enemy to run away from you in their turn, do it again in your second turn. You want to put your Rhino in a magic position, just out of their charge range, but within yours (12" and 14.5" respectively). If you can do this, you're sorted. If you cannot (they might be JP equipped or in a transport themselves, then just dont get within rapid fire range if you can help it - you still want to be within that 14.5" though if at all possible.

 

Its all about remembering Rhino's have side access points. :P

[thade]

Hi. My name's Thade. I love Vanguard. Here follows a wall of text.

 

There's a lot of Vanguard hate in this thread, so I'll see if I can't offset it. They're not very well understood. The most common objection to Vanguard is that they are "Too expensive" and the most common selling point is Heroic Intervention. Both of these bits of misinformation give Vanguard a bad name.

 

Overcosted: They certainly can be because you can give each and every one of them an upgrade. So you take a unit of five and give two guys thunder hammers, the sergeant a relic blade, then the last two guys twin lighting claws each...then you give each TH guy a storm shield and give them all jump packs and SURPRISE they are the most expensive liability in your army. You will HI them onto the table, scatter just out of assault range, then shed a tear as they go down to several boltgun volleys. That brings me to my next response...

 

Heroic Intevention: Unless you're running the BA codex, do NOT use HI. Average scatter is 7" and assault range is 6". Can you make it? Well, actually, after DSing and making them into a pretty little circle around the center model, you still might make it. Given the cost of the unit in many cases (especially the over-costed one) you do not want to risk them with something so uncertain. (If you're BA your scatter will always be less than or equal to assault range, so you can virtually guarantee a successful HI charge.)

 

How to buy Vanguard: As I play them, there are two ways...follow the Formula or take the Budget Vanilla Facepunchers.

 

The Formula:

- Take at least 6 vets, probably no more than 8.

- Do NOT buy them Jump Packs. Get them a ride: either a Rhino or a Land Raider Crusader. (If you don't like the "point sink" of an LRC, see the bottom of my post.)

- No model gets more than one upgrade.

- Take at least one powerfist. (I use the BA dex so I don't get relic blades. We can talk about those later if you're curious on my thoughts.)

- Take 1-2 models with single lightning claws (not twin lighting claws). I sometimes take 3 guys with single LCs if I'm feeling cheeky.

- Take 1-2 models with storm shields (recall I use the BA dex so my SSs cost more than yours).

- Fill out with non-upgraded veterans.

 

If a model has a storm shield, he's there to soak power weapon/AP2 hits. If a model has no upgrades, he's ablative wounds. Put as few saves as possible on the guys with upgrades.

 

Vanilla Facepunchers:

- Take NO upgrades. (Okay, you can take a Power Fist. I love those.)

- Take 8-10 models.

- Get them a ride OR get them jump packs. (The latter will cost a fortune, so consider the Rhino or the LRC.)

 

Now you have a unit that costs just under 300 points (not counting their transport...which is worth it's own points, as I'll assert later). "But Thade!" you'll say. "A unit of assault terminators costs me only 200 points! 2+/3++!! Str 8 all around! It's way better than your Vanguard noobz."

 

There are several reasons I take Vanguard over Hammernators.

- Terminators cannot perform Sweeping Advance; Vanguard can.

- More models fit in the transport = more models in the unit = I can spread them out and potentially engage more than one unit in assault more easily than I could with a small unit of Hammernators.

- More models also means I can spread wounds around and take less wounds on each model...I can also play wound allocation games to a limited degree (instead of each 1 being a removed hammernator for certain).

- They can climb in a Rhino (in the event their LR is gone).

- More room = techmarine can fit in the LR to keep it moving. (Personal preference of mine back when I ran vanilla dex.)

- Smaller bases = easier to crowd them in and get everybody within 2" of one of my models in BtB so I get all of my attacks. Of which there are forty.

- Everybody uses Hammernators. I like to be different.

 

Vanguard are like assault troops. They are NOT shock troops; if you rush them forward as the "vanguard" of your army, they'll get pasted. Keep them with or behind your gun line to counter charge. They will devastate most non-veteran units that close with your tactical marines in a way that will make you happy. The budget vanguard (1 or no upgrades) are my personal favorites right now. Stick them behind the gunline with their jump packs. (Here's some light mathhammer.) Hey, out comes my opponent's hammernator squad. In goes my vanguard with the chaplain...*40* melee attacks on the charge. Expect 30ish of them to hit with the chaplain (let's be pessimistic and say 25). Half again will wound...that's 12+ wounds for my opponent to role. He's going to roll some ones. His guys go at I1, meaning I only have to soak a handful of power weapon attacks. Even if I kill only one or two, I got the charge (something that's nice about having jump packs) his six attacks will probably kill three or four of my guys. I can CHOOSE TO FLEE because I'm vanilla marines, jump pack myself well out of range, then close for another round. I've killed several hammernator squads with this very strategy.

 

Finally, the Land Raider Crusader. It's a Land Raider: AV14 is awesome. With all of it's guns at Str 4 except the assault cannon, it can move 6" and fire everything. You can stick a MM on it and fire that too (with PotMS). The volume of fire is slightly better than a tactical squad, far more mobile, and arguably more durable. 12 boltgun shots (which are twin-linked) in rapid-fire range, the assault cannon (which can shred light or even heavy armor on lucky rolls) is four more...also twin-linked. After it's deployed the Vanguard...even if they all die, you might still have a massive heavy transport. Stick a scoring unit in there. So for 260ish points you get a tac squad that can't score but can carry other squads. In style.

[Tranc]

(If you're BA your scatter will always be less than or equal to assault range, so you can virtually guarantee a successful HI charge.)

 

Is this true? Wouldn't you want to place your Deep Strike position 6'' or 7'' away from the target unit to avoid a possible Mishap? And then if you scatter 6'' in the opposite direction, wouldn't you be 12'' from your target and hence outside of assault range (even with the 1.5'' or 2.5'' inch bonus from deploying your unit in a circle)?

[thade]

(If you're BA your scatter will always be less than or equal to assault range, so you can virtually guarantee a successful HI charge.)

 

Is this true? Wouldn't you want to place your Deep Strike position 6'' or 7'' away from the target unit to avoid a possible Mishap? And then if you scatter 6'' in the opposite direction, wouldn't you be 12'' from your target and hence outside of assault range (even with the 1.5'' or 2.5'' inch bonus from deploying your unit in a circle)?

 

Admittedly my claim is a bit optimistic. It's not crazy, though...at least, I don't think so.

 

BA scatter at 6". On the surface you might think to place your unit 7" or even 8" from the target, to account for scattering into the target and placing all of your models legally 1" away after encircling them on a worst case toward-roll. On a worst case away-roll, your unit is now clear and likely can't assault the unit you were targeting.

 

Here's what I would do. I'd combat squad the unit, declare HI with both squads, and place them each 5-6" from at least two targets a piece (it's okay if they share one or more targets). Now, what might happen? One or both may scatter favorably for me, such that I can get one or both of them into assaults after they land. If they wipe the target unit, that can be bad for them...as they'll be open to take return fire on the following turn. Pitting them against separate targets reduces this risk somewhat...but with 20 attacks coming from each unit, you might "accidentally" win combat. (That's really another issue altogether.) There is the risk that one or both of them will scatter onto targets and either take dangerous terrain tests or even mishap...but that's part of the risk when you HI. By combat squadding and placing them such that they may scatter towards one target or another, you increase their chances of working. Furthermore, a unit of five 40mm bases is much easier to place a bit "lop-sided" safely than is a full unit: the first model placed gets a model to his left and right, and then two nestled in behind them. Try this at your desk (I just did to remind myself) and you'll see you've got a facing of three followed tightly by two, and it's a legal placement. They've got a small footprint which reduces their chances at mishap by being too close to a unit or impassible terrain. Odds are both of them will not mishap, and both of them will not fail to reach...I expect one of the squads to connect, at least. If at least one connects, my opponent doesn't simply have two small squads to shoot at...they've got at least one assault on their hands and - if everything goes well - a badly damaged unit.

 

With the vanilla codex, a potential 7-12 inches makes this much less likely to go well for either squad.

 

Hope this helps.

[Ming]

My two cents:

 

I have run a drop pod list where the Vanguard are cleaners. One pod has a beacon. I also have a scout unit with a beacon. The beacon pod arrives turn 1, with another pod. These pods carry thingsl like an avenger librarian, meltasternguard, etc.

 

Turn 2 (or when the dice allow) the Vanguard arrive - and they have the job of assaulting whatever it is that has attacked the podders or scouts.

 

Vanguard for me have a combination of models with claws, power swords, and fist. Jump packs mandatory.

 

If point size of the game is large, and Kantor is in a pod, the Vanguard get a huge buff. Not only dropping right into the assault, but being inspired to boot.

 

Works quite well.

 

Challenge you to try in your next friendly game a list like:

 

Kantor (or other suitable Captain or character), 10 sternguard, pod (about 500 pts here)

Librarian, tac squad, 10, pod, beacon (or homer, whatever the dex allows) (about 350 pts here)

tac squad, 10, pod (about 225 pts here)

Scout squad, beacon (or homer, whatever the dex allows) (about 100 pts here)

Vanguard, 6 or 7, jump packs, PWs as points allow (about 350 here)

Terminator assault squad or regular terminator squad, 5 or 6 (about 200 pts here, plus upgrades, etc.)

Remaining points in speeders or whatever if you have any, upgrades, etc.

 

Seems the larger the game, the more deep striking stuff you have, the better your game will be.

 

Regardless, the Vanguard are able to get right where you want them, and then do what they do best - counterassault and save the survivors....

 

If you are a BA player, forget Vanguard - points are better spent of DC or a DC dread. Why be like codex marines when you have other, better tools?

[Ash]

I would love to try heroic intervention with my BA vanguard veterans off a stormraven. Granted the stormraven must have an intact beacon turn 2 or turn 3 but think about it. The stormraven has already dumped its payload of CC nasties after a 24 inch charge first turn. It may have moved or not since then. The stormraven is a big craft imagine a 6 inch homing beacon extending from any point on the stormraven. If you run vanguard as sweep from reserve cleaning up after the death company and the dread it dropped its a perfect combo and makes good use of heroic intervention.

Okay this only works for Blood Angels but someone tell me that this is not a great idea to use BA vets with Heroic Intervention.