Better than expected

[Adoremus]

I already see people bemoaning that we do not have access to IST anymore and my reply is - WHO CARES. I was totally blown away by what I have read so far. If each model is not costing twice the points from what it used to then this is really a force to be taken way more serious.

 

Teleporting across the table! Stormraven, more Land Raider variants, Chimeras, Razorbacks etc. etc.

 

I see my regular opponents before my inner eye and how they are crying into their pillow

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah I agree to some extent. I mean, IST's were always just a way for us to cram plasma and melta into our lists. Lets not pretend anyone considered them actual Troops.

 

And as a matter of fact, Henchmen squads are so diverse, they're way beyond simple Stormtroopers now. I can easily see people count-as Mechanicus, Arbites, even militia or conscripts. Add in the access to uber Pentient engines (artfully disguised Dreadknights) and cheap bunker transports (Chimera and Rhino options, yay), you've really just got to pick a theme and stick to it, and you'll still field a competitive little force. Oh, and for the love of the Emperor, buy Jokaero. They are simultaneously the most broken and the most hilarious unit in the entire codex. Support GW's decision to revive such a xenos gem from the dusty archives. Slave monkey army FTW!

 

Grey Knights are now actually cheaper and better (yay, actual force weapons that actually kill Daemons explicitly, so no more shenanigans about what precisely 'Instant Death' means). We still have expensive stuff and uber units that will probably only see one or two of per army (like Paladins, or even Purifiers to some extent). They also did the smart thing and didn't just hand out plasma and melta to our Knights, which would've been the easy way out. Just like before, Knights curbstomp infantry and monsters, our support vehicles open up the metal boxes the enemy is cowering in. That said, psycannons are ridiculous now. I'm prepared to drop the Rending on them if I get ignore invul in return, just to rebalance things a bit.

[Piousservant]

I already see people bemoaning that we do not have access to IST anymore and my reply is - WHO CARES.

 

Those of us who weren't WAAC powergamers maybe...??

[BrotherWasted]

WAAC implies that you played IST in a GK army anyway, as I understand it.

 

The new Codex is quite fearsome. 55pt, WS5, 2W Terminators? The option for a Terminator Apothecary?

 

Genuine Force Weapons across the board is brilliant. Force Falchions and Halberds are naughty, letting you charge at Eldar/Dark Eldar and heavily thin their ranks before easily surviving a counter attack.

 

As mentioned, Psycannons are ridiculous.

[Piousservant]

WAAC implies that you played IST in a GK army anyway, as I understand it.

 

I wouldn't know. I had a pure GK army and a seperate radical-led (no GK) IST army...

[ArcAngelShadi]

Gk are so AWESOME.... i trying to decide to do GK or BA its soooooo hard to chose.

[River Black]

They will find a place in my Inquisitors warband no matter what their name.

[Valerian]

I already see people bemoaning that we do not have access to IST anymore and my reply is - WHO CARES.

 

Those of us who weren't WAAC powergamers maybe...??

 

What does WAAC stand for?

 

Overall, I'm liking the new codex. It'll really make my pure Grey Knights army viable again. He'll, not just viable, but a force to be reckoned with.

 

Generally, I'm happy with all of the rules; so far I don't have any problems with what I already know about. The only problems I have with the codex are matters of consistency:

 

1. There is no such thing as "more incorruptible"; you either can be corrupted, or you cannot. I hate this part of the Purifier Brotherhood's fluff. I love the Purifiers, and it is nice to have an Elite Power Armour option, but the fluff should have just explained them in a different way. He'll, just call them one path/option of Grey Knights Veterans, and I would have been happy with the explanation.

 

2. By the new fluff, the Terminators and Knights in PA are supposed to be at the same skill level; they are just operating differently to satisfy different requirements for the force. I've seen the discussions, but so far I see no good reason that GKT troops have a better Ld and one more attack than GKSS brothers. Admittedly, the GKSS stats were likely done to keeps points down for the basic Troops, however, it is an inconsistency that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

3. Kaldor Draigo- I love the model, and love the rules, but his fluff leaves me cringing. There are ways to write for an epic badass that doesn't leave half of the readers disappointed. Just look at how Phil Kelly wrote the entries for Njal and Ragnar for examples.

 

Despite these failures, I'm really looking forward to playing my Knights again, and their new rules do make them a truly an Elite force.

 

Valerian

[Valkyrion]

2. By the new fluff, the Terminators and Knights in PA are supposed to be at the same skill level; they are just operating differently to satisfy different requirements for the force. I've seen the discussions, but so far I see no good reason that GKT troops have a better Ld and one more attack than GKSS brothers. Admittedly, the GKSS stats were likely done to keeps points down for the basic Troops, however, it is an inconsistency that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

Rules and fluff don't and shouldn't marry. One is 'real' the other is 'balance'.

[Valerian]

2. By the new fluff, the Terminators and Knights in PA are supposed to be at the same skill level; they are just operating differently to satisfy different requirements for the force. I've seen the discussions, but so far I see no good reason that GKT troops have a better Ld and one more attack than GKSS brothers. Admittedly, the GKSS stats were likely done to keeps points down for the basic Troops, however, it is an inconsistency that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

Rules and fluff don't and shouldn't marry. One is 'real' the other is 'balance'.

 

I completely disagree on that. The rules are meaningless without the fluff that they are founded on; the fluff sets the context for the rules. Why are SM Scouts only WS and BS 3? Because in the fluff they aren't yet fully Marines. If a designer wants to have the GKSS as being slightly less capable than GKTs (in this case with reduced Leadership and Attacks), then just craft the fluff in a way that explains the difference (eg Grey Knights spend some time in GKSS units honing their skills before getting issued their TDA suits). Providing background material that says they are of comparable skill, when clearly they are not, is a huge screw-up.

 

V

[Eddie Orlock]

What does WAAC stand for?

:o

It stands for all those WAACy things people will do when they feel they have to Win At All Costs.

[Valkyrion]

Scouts are WS and BS4 to make them different from space marines. If scouts were WS and BS4 then they'd have to cost more than 13 and marines are only 16 points.

 

in 4th ed you could give your units Terminator Honours, increasing attacks by 1, which is what terminators had. You could then give them to command squads - did the command squad marines suddenly become better warriors in one battle, then lost their abilities in the next, then got them back again, as the player tinkered with his army list?

 

The extra attack represents the extra abilities bestowed upon the marine by the terminator armour in way which is viable for game play that cannot be better represented.

 

The characteristics of something never truly marry to the fluff. The special rules might, but is Calgar really just as good as the regular captain? His WS is the same after all. A bloodthirster nearly killed a primarch - the stats don't reflect that though.

 

Terminator armour allows the wearer to perform a specialised role - the extra leadership could be explained by the marine knowing his armour is virtually impenetrable so is less likely to retreat from danger. The extra attack could be explained in a similar way whereby the wearer takes a less guarded approach in melee due to his protection.

[Captain Psycho]

It seems like the general consensus is that there's a lot of good and some bad (ok maybe not over on whineseer where the amount of nerd rage over the NDK is insane).

 

For long time GK players the changes are hard because the new GKs are so different, and I can respect that.

 

As someone just getting into this army I like what I see so far. Yeah the NDK is lame and the storm bolters look way too big, but you don't have to field an NDK and a little conversion work on the storm bolters will go a long way towards fixing that problem. I was looking at pics of the metal PAGKs last night comparing them to the new models and I really think the new ones are so much better. The metal PAGKs had stiff poses, the new poses with two hands gripping the sword look so bad ass to me - like a samurai about to strike. OTOH I do think the metal TAGKs looked better - those old models are timeless.

 

Ironically I thought I would be fielding an all termie / land raider super elite low model count list when I heard TAGKs were going to be troops but in looking at the leaked draft codex and reading about the confirmed rules changes I think I'll actually start with all PAGKs. A GKSS with two psycannons in a rhino with fortitude seems like a great objective holder and purifiers with NFW halberds and incenerators led by a Champion are going to be scary good assault units methinks (just not sure if they should go in a rhino, land raider or storm raven). Backed up by 4 x psycannon purgation squads in cover and you've got a really, really good all-rounder list with a much higher body count than I would have expected. That's my two cents anyway.

[Wahotsu]

where are you guys reading these new rules and fluff and stuff?

[Gentlemanloser]

in 4th ed you could give your units Terminator Honours, increasing attacks by 1, which is what terminators had. You could then give them to command squads - did the command squad marines suddenly become better warriors in one battle, then lost their abilities in the next, then got them back again, as the player tinkered with his army list?

 

The extra attack represents the extra abilities bestowed upon the marine by the terminator armour in way which is viable for game play that cannot be better represented.

 

(Edit: And the answer is Yes. They did become better or wrose warriors form battle tobattle, depending on points spent and whetehr you bought them honours or not. That's actually totally consistent)

 

That kinda falls down when you could give people 'Terminator Honours' (for IIRC 10 points in some cases) for the +1A, wihtout needing them to have TDA.

 

The +1A was to represent 'veteren' training. If your commands Squads didn't have it, well then, there were most likely newbie's promoted to command Squad, and not verterens of your chapter. :D

 

Val is totally correct. Providing fluff cliaming all Grey Knights are equally as trianed out of boot camp, then making some significantly worse for no apparant reason is nothing but fluff fail.

 

Of course it's of balance and variety.

 

But it's still fluf fail.

 

That could quite easily be fixed, as suggested above.

[Oiad]

It's inconsistent writing and, as you said an attempt to balance/keep the costs on PAGK low. Anyone saying otherwise is trying too hard to look for excuses.

[monkeyking]

It's inconsistent writing and, as you said an attempt to balance/keep the costs on PAGK low. Anyone saying otherwise is trying too hard to look for excuses.

 

 

Or it could simply be that TDA helps them swing around their big honking weapons faster. ;) You know, like how they can move and assault whilst firing the BFGs.

[Gentlemanloser]

But are too slow to sweeping advance?

 

Besides, the +1A is from the Honours (or rather the recognition of Veteren training), not the armour itself.

[BrotherWasted]

Yes, of course the Terminators are too slow to sweeping advance. The armour provides them with extreme strength and physical defense, but at the cost of being able to swarm upon an enemy. That makes perfect sense to me.

[dizzy-xc]

I already see people bemoaning that we do not have access to IST anymore and my reply is - WHO CARES. I was totally blown away by what I have read so far. If each model is not costing twice the points from what it used to then this is really a force to be taken way more serious.

 

Teleporting across the table! Stormraven, more Land Raider variants, Chimeras, Razorbacks etc. etc.

 

I see my regular opponents before my inner eye and how they are crying into their pillow

 

I agree... I just took a look a the leaked codex and wow. Just wow. So much goodness. I love how totally customizable the henchmen are. That will prove to be quite interesting... I migth even convert some IST troops here.

 

The GK's are gonna play completely differently than they've ever done before. There are so many options and possibilities I havent even been able to make sense of it all, but damn, those paladins... completely scary.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, of course the Terminators are too slow to sweeping advance. The armour provides them with extreme strength and physical defense, but at the cost of being able to swarm upon an enemy. That makes perfect sense to me.

 

Yes.

 

Which is why the armour, in itself, would do nothing to help you attack faster. :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I really don't know why any of us should be complaining;

 

- Background is fine. Whineseer may be melting down with the amount of hate for Draigo (propagated and sustained by a handful of bitter older players, I might add, who also started the 'ZOMG CALGAR' flamestorm before that), but I find his tale compelling and interesting. It completely fits the whole ethos of the Grey Knights (to withstand what would drive others insane/damned). It is really just the same tired anti-Marine ranting dressed up in different clothes. Makes me lol.

- Purifiers are cool. The central tenet of 40k is that no one is incorruptible, but as a caveat, you can resist if you choose to. The lie that daemons try and spin on mortals is that either way you serve Cahos, because it matches the nature of the warp; to them, all that was, is and shall be occurs at the same 'time'. Thats the same lie that gives Tzeentch (who is ultimately the greatest power in the warp) his power; that none are beyond his manipulation. That is what makes the Grey Knights heroic and brave, despite their inherent badassery and elite nature; they choose to not only stand against the inevitable doom of humanity, but test their own faith and loyalty to beyond even most post-humans (ie Primarchs and their sons). And at any time, they could give in and let their immense psychic power be ruled by the puppet strings of a gesalt ball of lies and schemes.

- I'm probably largely on my own here, but I think the Dreadknight looks cool and suitably advanced (remember, Titan is literally next door to Mars, and its hinted all over the codex that the Grey Knights have little side deals going with various aliens to help them tech up). Losing that 4+ invul from the rough draft is a hit (as it will never ever be able to claim cover saves), but it's still 2+ armour and still badass, so meh.

 

tl:dr

 

Put on a smile, and laugh when you fire your first new psycannon. Laugh even harder when half the 40k internet fill up the forums with moans about 'broken' and 'cheese', while the other half start posting lists with 'count-as Grey Knights' in the title.