Black Legion and Word Bearers

[Midgard]

Now, this might be me jumping to conclusions, but is anyone else getting an impression that perhaps GW is moving in the direction of making the Word Bearers the "archetypal" Chaos force instead of the Black Legion? It seems that in all BL fluff the sons of Lorgar are getting far more attention than Abaddon and his merry gang of ne'er-do-wells, at least if we compare the number of stories centered on them with the number of stories centered on the Black Legion (the opening trilogy of the Horus Heresy series does not count as it has little to nothing to do with "modern" Black Legion - in contrast, "The First Heretic" is thematically more relevant to how the "modern" Word Bearers may see themselves). Furthermore, in the ending of "Dark Creed"

Erebus pretty much says flat out that other Chaos-aligned factions, Word Bearers not the least amongst them, are considering a change in overall leadership after Abaddon's perceived weakness and many, many failures

.

 

While I doubt the next edition of the Chaos Space Marines codex (whenever that happens) will advance the storyline forward that much (unless it follows on the heels of 6th edition of the game, which might advance the story just enough for this to happen), is anyone else seeing a definite trend away from Abaddon's boys towards Lorgar's lot? Or am I reading too much into this?

[A D-B]

While I doubt the next edition of the Chaos Space Marines codex (whenever that happens) will advance the storyline forward that much (unless it follows on the heels of 6th edition of the game, which might advance the story just enough for this to happen), is anyone else seeing a definite trend away from Abaddon's boys towards Lorgar's lot?

 

I suspect not.

 

The First Heretic didn't tie into any overall company plan; it was just a story I decided to tell, out of what factions weren't reserved by the guys already on the HH team.

 

Regarding the spoiler, that's definitely not something I really see as valid in regards to realistically happening (at least, not in my perception of the setting - I'm not saying it's bad/wrong/whatever). The meme of Abaddon failing is something fans say, largely in part to how badly Abaddon has been presented in the lore, but in-universe, he's the thematic Antichrist of the 40K, and commands unparalleled respect (and/or obedience) from most of the Chaos Marines due to personality and force of arms. His is the name the Imperium whispers in fear. While there'd definitely be ambitious Chaos fellows wanting to bump him off and take his place, it's not because he's failed. He's the only soul able to unify the Chaos Marines thus far, after all.

 

What I hope to see is him presented as more of a credible threat, with the Black Crusades presented as they should be, rather than as failed attempts to take Terra.

 

In short, naw, I doubt it. I don't know for sure, but I suspect a better-written Abaddon would be the result of the next codex, rather than a shift in faction focus. To us, he looks like a failure. It's hard to pick out his successes when the lore we're shown depicts him seeming so useless. We have to read between the lines to find his achievements, sometimes.

 

But to the Imperium, he's Satan. Almost literally. He most definitely takes the mythological Antichrist niche.

[Captain Tezdal]

While I wouldn't mind other folks getting as much air time as the Black Legion (I mean look at my beloved World Eaters, only fluff we got is Khârn in the new codex, well that and a short story about Khârn killing us) I don't think it's really the WB being focused on more, although I do think most presentations of the Black Legion in "modern" 40k (besides in Soul Hunter that is) have been pretty bland, and moustache twirly. The Failbaddon thing does get pretty obnoxious, he's currently grinding one of the most fortified planets in the Galaxy to dust and doing all kinds of other things of sheer badassery(even though apparently all his super weapons crap up, looking at you Planet Killer/ Blackstones)

[minigun762]

is anyone else seeing a definite trend away from Abaddon's boys towards Lorgar's lot? Or am I reading too much into this?

 

I can see where you're coming from and I'll say that I partially agree with you.

 

The WB are one of the few unified Legions that remain, which by itself puts them ahead of other factions in being the "guys in charge" simply because they retain that level of communication, organization and direction that would be needed. Abaddon achieves much of this through sheer force of will and fearmongering, which while powerful, might not be the most stable method of leadership as its basically the same method that Orks use.

 

In addition, the WB get the honor of being the very first Legion to go traitor and were instrumental in leading the other Legions into Chaos' fold. Again this is more evidence of their ability to plan and orchestrate events to their end.

 

Lastly their worship of Chaos as the true religion gives them a motivation that goes beyond increasing their own personal power or "maim kill burn".

 

So this all points to the WB as having a lot of potential for leading the other Traitor Legions, however I don't think that that is what they want or would do. They have a history of working through people, of being the advisor and directing/manipulating others into doing what they need and in this regard the Black Legion is perfect. The Black Legion is many times larger then the WB which means they have far more power as well as far more disposable men. The size and fear associated with the Black Legion diverts attention that might go towards the WB, leaving them safer.

 

Long story short, I think the WB are fine playing the role of advisor and/or manipulator and allowing the Black Legion to take on the brunt of the fighting. However I wouldn't be surprised at all if they tried to make a power play on a weakened Black Legion after they had exhausted themselves fighting the Imperium.

[Smurfalypse]

I think personally that this is an issue that is broken down into two parts and can be explained in two ways.

 

First you have to look at the fluff and HH books that have been coming out the passed few years. In those the WB legion is the match that set the barn ablaze so to speak, there is NO getting around the fact that the legions turned because of the WB's actions and their choices. In effect that means that you cannot escape the issue that they are going to show up in most, if not all of the books in some manner. The Black Legion had yet to actually exist as they do in the chaos codex so their role in the whole ordeal is far less "dramatic" in comparison. This is an inescapable truth to the situation (fluff wise).

 

The second part of this is to look at the actual Chaos Codexs that have come out over the years. In the second edition book the WBs were talked about in a few minor areas, basically listing them as the only legion to still have chaplains and them being the first to turn traitor. The third edition book i can barely remember, but as i recall it didnt mention them much at all either. The 3.5 edition book had a good amount about them, however it had just as much about each other legion and more about the Black Legion than the others. To our current fourth edition book, there is no line in the book that mention the WB outside of a single line underneath a picture with some Black Legion guys teaming up with the WB. Even when it lists all the "Warbands", it lists all the legions EXCEPT WB.

 

My friends know i have played WB since second edition and use this against me, forever referring me as "Bearer of the Word". Even the Fallen are listed as "Unknown" yet the legion who started it all did not even make it :) So in a sense in this current codex WB are listed less often than the Black Legion.

 

Just my two cents.

[Trel]

See, I think the Black Legion is plenty unified. I believe people tend to mistake the former Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus as the Black Legion. They aren't. A lot of the members of the Black Legion used to be Sons of Horus, but the Black Legion will accept pretty much anyone and anything.

 

Abbadon specifically re-named the Legion in order to turn his back on Horus' failure. As of that moment, the Sons of Horus no longer existed.

 

The Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors may have large legions that are more or less unified and there may be more of them than former members of the Sons of Horus. Abbadon takes traitor Space Marine Chapters into his fold, traitor Guard, Dark AdMech, traitor Navy, daemons, pretty much anything that will allow him to prosecute the war. Add all that up, and the Black Legion is, all of a sudden, very large and surprisingly well-equipped.

 

Abbadon himself is probably the single baddest man in the universe and all four squabbling powers of Chaos have marked him. To the Marines who are even just a bit respectful, never mind worshipful, of Chaos, that's a very strong endorsement and motivation to follow him. He carries a weapon that was used to cripple the Emperor. A man like that would not be leading a bunch of failures.

 

I think (I hope) that the next Chaos codex does a better job of explaining the heterogeneous nature of the traitor Legions, particularly the Black Legion, and fills in some of Abbadon's backstory that makes him seem a little more competent and a much deeper strategic thinker. I think the easiest way would be to list off his thirteen Black Crusades and point out that, in many cases, they accomplished exactly what he wanted them to, even if the goal is not immediately apparent to the outside view.

[minigun762]

See, I think the Black Legion is plenty unified. I believe people tend to mistake the former Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus as the Black Legion. They aren't. A lot of the members of the Black Legion used to be Sons of Horus, but the Black Legion will accept pretty much anyone and anything.

 

The Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors may have large legions that are more or less unified and there may be more of them than former members of the Sons of Horus. Abbadon takes traitor Space Marine Chapters into his fold, traitor Guard, Dark AdMech, traitor Navy, daemons, pretty much anything that will allow him to prosecute the war. Add all that up, and the Black Legion is, all of a sudden, very large and surprisingly well-equipped.

 

The Black Legion is unified around Abaddon to be sure and as such forms the largest "Chaos" faction out there.

However there is this statement from the IA articles which better describes why I wouldn't call them "unified" (I bolded the important sections)

 

After the death of Horus, proper structure within the squads and companies disintegrated, and their later dispersal in various spacecraft further fragmented the Legion. Now warbands of virtually any size and composition can be found following Black Legion Champions - ranking officers from older times or newly emerged leaders who have won favour through their violent deeds. At times, such warbands rally together under the banner of a greater Champion or even Abaddon himself, for a major raid or incursion into the hated Imperium. However, loyalty to differing Chaos gods often leads to internal politics and conflict. Possession by Daemons is still considered highly favourable, and many members of the Legion strive for the honour of being hosts.

 

In my eyes, this is more akin to how the Orks work, with the biggest/baddest guy surrounding himself with followers. It gives the impression that at any given time, there isn't a standing command structure in place, instead you are free to do what you want, how you want until someone tougher tells you otherwise.

 

Maybe I'm not giving the BL their due credit though.

[Commissar Joe]

The perception of Abaddon in the fluff and the community is interesting. Prior to coming to this forum I'd never considered how much of a failure he is, I always saw him as the archetype of a Chaos warlord (and I suppose as Warmaster he is THE Chaos Warlord). Having read about him more I’m inclined to lean towards community opinion now.

To overcome this I would like to see GW to incorporate the 14th Black Crusade into the fluff in the same way as the Battle for Macragge was done. Use it as an opportunity to advance the 40k universe and resculpt a new model for Abaddon as well as some new C:SM models for a new C:SM book.

If Abaddon could get a duology from BL (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Free-Extras/A-conversation-with-Dan-and-Aaron-pt-1.html) to tie into it as well then I think his image would be somewhat rehabilitated and he'd be back to his old self in the eyes of many.

 

To get back on topic; I think the Black Legion are still the default Chaos legion due to their origin as Horus' legion and their current fluffy position as the Warmaster's own. They also allow for flexibility on the tabetop because of the breakdown of their unit structure and absorption of new members.

Also, they're easiest legion to paint...

[Kristoff]

To overcome this I would like to see GW to incorporate the 14th Black Crusade into the fluff in the same way as the Battle for Macragge was done. Use it as an opportunity to advance the 40k universe and resculpt a new model for Abaddon as well as some new C:SM models for a new C:SM book.

 

There's a rumor floating around that the 6th Edition starter set will be Chaos vs Sisters... While Abaddon shouldn't be in a starter set, the set itself could be based on one of the conflicts of the 14th Crusade.

[Captain Tezdal]

To overcome this I would like to see GW to incorporate the 14th Black Crusade into the fluff in the same way as the Battle for Macragge was done. Use it as an opportunity to advance the 40k universe and resculpt a new model for Abaddon as well as some new C:SM models for a new C:SM book.

 

There's a rumor floating around that the 6th Edition starter set will be Chaos vs Sisters... While Abaddon shouldn't be in a starter set, the set itself could be based on one of the conflicts of the 14th Crusade.

 

Wait..what? How are we going to have a 14th Black Crusade, when the 13th is still going on? The whole Cadia being ground to dust thing, Typhus establishing a Daemon World outside of the Eye...etc..

[chillin]

Wait..what? How are we going to have a 14th Black Crusade, when the 13th is still going on? The whole Cadia being ground to dust thing, Typhus establishing a Daemon World outside of the Eye...etc..

 

13th black crusade is not still going on. It is over, chaos (for all practical purposes) was driven back and scattered.

[Captain Tezdal]

Wait..what? How are we going to have a 14th Black Crusade, when the 13th is still going on? The whole Cadia being ground to dust thing, Typhus establishing a Daemon World outside of the Eye...etc..

 

13th black crusade is not still going on. It is over, chaos (for all practical purposes) was driven back and scattered.

 

The forces of Chaos are still fighting on Cadia...among other places, the Imperium got Naval supremacy but it is still up in the air, besides the fact that it has been semi-retconned out

or to quote the 4.0 dex

"In Abbadons latest attack, the fortress world of cadia was overrun by Abbadon's Black Legion and their allied hordes. Bitter fighting still rages on the surface of Cadia and a dozen surrounding worlds for possession of the Cadian Gate" then "should abbadons armies triumph the floodgates will be open and the never ending tide of chaos will pour out of the eye of terror"...sounds like it is still going on to me

[subtlebrush]

I thought the 13th Black Crusade was like the 3rd war for Armageddon and it was still going on, still open for adding to and such. C:SM, C:SW and C:BA still list the 13th Black Crusade as still in progress from what I remember.

 

Mr.Malevolent

[Zeller]

Hence the 6th ed. rulebook and 6th ed. C:CSM release advancing the timeline to the 14th Black Crusade, in theory. The portrayal of the chaos marines as roving bands of space marines has always seemed stupid to me. If they're actually like splinter fleets from a once great armada then fine, I can see that but chaos Gods or not these guys were once part of the most sophisticated military mankind could produce. You don't just stop structuring your fighting forces overnight because you wanted to strap loincloths on and prance around the Imperium to spread chaos.

 

Anyway, I agree with above posters. The Word Bearers would not be an appropriate focus. The Black Legion is the base-generic chaos archetype as well as the legion that more or less lead chaos forces just as the Ultramarines are the base-generic loyalist archetype that led the loyalist legions in times of strife post-heresy. Quite frankly, the WB seem more interested in internal power grabs than actually bringing down the Imperium.

[Razhbad]

Well now i have recently seen Abaddon as a failure and books such as Dark Creed, Soul Hunter and Iron Warrior have made me laugh as it is recent books pointing towards speaking about a failing Abaddon. But is Abaddon failing, the fluff certainly looks like it. I would love to see a proper back ground into the Black Legion, i once more want to be shown that Abaddon is not a joke, that he is the greatest Chaos Warlord.

 

But overall i personally am leaning more towards Huron Blackheart.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I know the word bearers are the most zealous in their endevours but Logar is more a superhuman/deamon puppet, his worship to the dark gods has left him with a void personality in my eyes. thusly hes too eager to follow rarther than lead.

 

Plus Horus' tacita and mentality for warfare kicks Logars bottom anyday :)

[minigun762]

Plus Horus' tacita and mentality for warfare kicks Logars bottom anyday B)

 

Excellent point and reinforced by the First Heretic novel. Not every Primarch was born/created to be a military leader.

[Kristoff]

Plus Horus' tacita and mentality for warfare kicks Logars bottom anyday :blush:

 

Excellent point and reinforced by the First Heretic novel. Not every Primarch was born/created to be a military leader.

 

Really? I thought they were.

 

That doesn't mean they were equal to each other at all, though. They were both brought up in very different environments that taught them and guided their growth in very different directions. Lorgar was raised on a temple world, while Horus pretty much grew up at the Emperor's side. Fate may have been much different if they had landed at each other's original spots.

[Dark Mechanicum]

I dont see Abaddon as a failure per say. He has his own reasons for his battles. In some things yes he does fail but then again that is also based off of fluff and stories. Looking at the 13th Crusade: Chaos scattered and has a toehold on Cadia. Its no longer a crusade, its now an embattled world. The same with the 3rd War for Armageddon. It is technically over, the orks have been driven off enough that there will always be fighting but its no longer a massive sink it was in the beginning. So Abaddon has technically succeeded in some of his goals. He has Cadia in a neverending war, Typhus is out and about doing his daemon world thing. With Cadia under non-stop assault, more chaos fleets can escape into the universe and cause more havoc and destruction. Ulthwé lost its premier Farseer during the 13th Black and with Eldrad gone so went a massive threat to chaos from that quarter.

 

Abaddon will hopefully get a much better rendition in 6th edition. I hope all Chaos gets its rendition in 6th Edition.

[minigun762]

Plus Horus' tacita and mentality for warfare kicks Logars bottom anyday :)

 

Excellent point and reinforced by the First Heretic novel. Not every Primarch was born/created to be a military leader.

 

Really? I thought they were.

 

That doesn't mean they were equal to each other at all, though. They were both brought up in very different environments that taught them and guided their growth in very different directions. Lorgar was raised on a temple world, while Horus pretty much grew up at the Emperor's side. Fate may have been much different if they had landed at each other's original spots.

 

There is a growing pile of evidence, mostly from the last few HH novels that heavily hints that each Primarch was created with a particular speciality and focus which would eventually serve as the defining role for that Primarch and Legion had the Heresy not happened.

It also appears that the Emperor built in some level of redundancy by having Legions that had overlapping specialities in case something happened.

 

So while all Primarchs were far beyond mortal men in damn near every aspect, as you say they weren't created equal.

[modernangelofdeath]

if they were to make any move towards the word bearers it would probably start with a model of Erebus or something like that being made.

*looks at GW* :cuss