Tactica: Nemesis-Force Weapons

[gil galed]

So now that we have access to the real codex I thought we should start discussing what weapons we reckon would be the best for each squad and each activity.

 

Personally my GK army is almost already made so it's mostly metal halberds so anything involving WYSIWYG will likely be that, but I'll probably pick up a few more PAGKs so it's worth considering, and also for proxy-ing.

 

It seems Halberds will generally be a good choice for Strike Squads, the +2 I means they'll be hitting earlier which will be important for their survivability and for the small point cost definetly worth it over the swords which won't be doing anything for PA.

 

In contrast i'm torn for purifiers. The initiative boost combined with flame means that you may well be wiping out everything before it hits you, in contrast however falcions +1a might be really useful especially if you get the charge for 4 power attacks.

 

For terminators swords will certainly add some survivability, specifically for characters with Iron Halo etc. So really against other combat troops it's survivability vs hitting first. Tough call.

 

Anyone else had any exciting thoughts?

 

 

On an alternative note, how often do we reckon psybolts will be worth taking and on whom?

 

~Gil ;)

[SoulReaver296]

It depends on your play style and what opponents you're facing most. For me, that means guard and tau, so halberds are a waste of points. I'd either keep the swords or go with falchions, but that's only in my group, for what I play. Really, the best way is magnetizing the arms if possible, and changing them for whatever list you're running. Just remember that you can throw in an oddball for wound allocation

[Gentlemanloser]

Swords if you want to keep costs down.

 

Halbards on everyone else (including Termies or other units where they're free).

 

The only other change would be to mix in a few Hammers, just for anti dreadnought protection.

 

I think any weapon upgrades on Stike/Interceptor squads are a waste (bar maybe 1 Hammer). They don't have the attacks to justify the cost. But converley I tihnk Psybolts are fabulous for Inteceptor Squads.

 

A 12" moving S5 2 shot unit. They're like War Psiders, but with the bite of Power Weapons in CC!

 

The warding stave potentially only ever on an IC you want to make sure lives in CC.

[SamaNagol]

Can we confirm that Warding Staves are still Force Weapons?

 

If that is the case then I will always be putting at least one in a unit of Terminators for AP1 & AP2 ranged fire. Cast Hammerhand every turn and you are still swinging a S5 Power Weapon at initiative, which is fantastic.

 

Given that you get enough parts to magnetize every model with a Halberd, a Sword or Falchions the only thing you would need to add in are Hammers and Staves.

 

I think one Hammer per squad, and a Stave in your Terminator unit for allocating wounds that would ignore their armour, would be fine. Everyone else gets Halberds. Then just pick between HammerHanding or InstantDeathing each turn depending on who you are facing.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nemesis Staves are 2++ in CC only. ^_^

[SamaNagol]

BOOO!

 

Actually that does make sense, cos otherwise it would have been pretty ridiculous. So best we can get is 4++ due to no Storm Shields.

[Hellios]

Also halbards are a waste on a librarian squad if you intend to use quicking/quicksilver... whatever it is called... then swords if you are cheap of any of the others except hammers if it suits.

[HERO]

Here's my idea:

 

Every weapon is useless except for the Halberds and Daemonhammer.

 

My argument is this:

 

Going first in this game is a HUGE bonus.. especially with Force Weapons. I4 is just no good these days because you're either going simul with Marines and taking 3+ PA saves and losing more expensive models, or you're going later vs. BA/Eldar..etc. I6 gives you the opportunity to not only reduce damage by killing your enemies, but gives you the advantage against your one weakness: Dedicated CC that's faster than you. With I6, you're faster than most ICs, almost all normal troops and your only enemies are things Harlequins. You're even faster than Incubi unless they have Furious Charge.

 

Swords are a waste because 90% of the time, you will kill anything you touch in CC with Termies. Swords on PAGK are useless because you don't have a Invul save. On PAGK, going first with Halberds is a must have. On Termies, Swords are a little better, but going first will still minimize casualties and attacks back.

 

Staves are a point sink, 25ppm and utterly worthless if you're going to be going first and killing everything to begin with. If I can spare the points, maybe 1 is all that's needed because god knows the only thing that'll be alive is the Fist, if anything at all. And this is if they don't sustain ANY losses through your hail of S5 Stormbolters.. which is not a realistic.

 

The Daemonhammer is just a no brainer option because it's essentially a S8 Force Weapon that you can make S10 and can't be picked out by normal means. Always take 1-2 in a squad.

[Utsujin]

A squad of 10 regular knights, with halberds, rhino, and 2 psycannons is around 300 ish. Thing is, do you want your squad to be uber with s5 storm bolters, and i6 in cc? or a squad of each? I'm already torn. I have 40 old metal models, which I'll probably use as my purifier army. Gosh, in an economy like this, they might as well be made of gold.

 

Yea, i agree the demonhammers are 100% worth it for anti dread. never leave home without one!

[thor1234]

I agree with Hero, In the mock lists ive been playing with Halberds with a hammer or two have been the flavour, as far as I can tell the only units you might stuggle are those few units with I7 and higher so Halberds get my vote!

[Oiad]

Here's my idea:

 

Every weapon is useless except for the Halberds and Daemonhammer...

Staves may find a place if they're effective against Perils of the Warp - It's helpful to have some kind of optional protection considering all the powers being cast. Halberds and Daemonhammers received a buff since their initial rumours, and now seem more than their costs-worth. A bargain to be sure. Because of both this and being cheaper than the other options the alternatives don't look as strong. I imagine that if 'Falchions' had a re-roll to wound as well as the +1A or had been costed the same price they'd be considered a top choice to take by everyone. *starts to wish-list away*

[grimz]

Does a warding save work against Perils? Could be worth throwing on your Justicar then, since perils will be resolved against him first...

 

STR 5 storm bolters... I'm not sold yet, if I have 10 man squad in a Rhino shooting out of the top, doesn't really seem worth it (even though it is cheap it all adds up).

 

Halbeard + 1/2 Hammers seems really good. Hammerhand is resolved before strength doubling of a daemon hammer (confirmed myself this morning), which make the weapon and squad quite versitile

[Inache]

Since the warding staff only provides the 2++ in close combat, the only possibility is it covering against perils when using hammerhand or other assault psyker powers, wouldn't it?

[HERO]

STR 5 storm bolters... I'm not sold yet, if I have 10 man squad in a Rhino shooting out of the top, doesn't really seem worth it (even though it is cheap it all adds up).

 

Get out and shoot?

[HERO]

Since the warding staff only provides the 2++ in close combat, the only possibility is it covering against perils when using hammerhand or other assault psyker powers, wouldn't it?

 

Correct, you can't use Warding Staves vs. Perils.

 

Which is why it's crap and overpriced.

 

Depends

 

Not really, it's pretty obvious what the better choices are.

[Captain Idaho]

Standard Force Swords are good because they come, well, standard. That means they are cost effective for their benefits. What with Hammer Hand, you're looking at S5 Terminators with 4+ invulnerable saves.

 

This really comes into it's own when taking Paladins. They have 2 wounds anyway and are expensive, so taking a standard weapon which increases their survivability for no extra cost is fiendish. With the wound allocation rules Paladins are the new Ork Nobz!

[HERO]

Standard Force Swords are good because they come, well, standard. That means they are cost effective for their benefits. What with Hammer Hand, you're looking at S5 Terminators with 4+ invulnerable saves.

 

This really comes into it's own when taking Paladins. They have 2 wounds anyway and are expensive, so taking a standard weapon which increases their survivability for no extra cost is fiendish. With the wound allocation rules Paladins are the new Ork Nobz!

 

What benefit does Swords have on PAGK? Nothing.

What about Termies? +1 Invul.

 

So on PAGK, the only thing holding them back is points, which is why they'll keep swords IF I ever take GKSS. Otherwise, I would just take Purifiers, they're better in every way.

 

For Termies, sure, 4++ Invul is great, but wouldn't you want to kill your enemy before they even get to strike? You minimize rolling saves by killing the enemy instead of relying on a 4++ to begin with.

 

The ONLY time I would take Swords is on ICs like my GM and my Libby.

[BrotherWasted]

What benefits do Swords have on PAGK? They're a free power weapon on a Troops choice. That's their benefit. The benefit is the fact that your basic trooper will ignore armor saves for no additional points cost.

 

But I digress, yes, if your unit is going to be dedicated CC, then no, Swords are not adequate.

[Captain Idaho]

Standard Force Swords are good because they come, well, standard. That means they are cost effective for their benefits. What with Hammer Hand, you're looking at S5 Terminators with 4+ invulnerable saves.

 

This really comes into it's own when taking Paladins. They have 2 wounds anyway and are expensive, so taking a standard weapon which increases their survivability for no extra cost is fiendish. With the wound allocation rules Paladins are the new Ork Nobz!

 

What benefit does Swords have on PAGK? Nothing.

What about Termies? +1 Invul.

 

So on PAGK, the only thing holding them back is points, which is why they'll keep swords IF I ever take GKSS. Otherwise, I would just take Purifiers, they're better in every way.

 

For Termies, sure, 4++ Invul is great, but wouldn't you want to kill your enemy before they even get to strike? You minimize rolling saves by killing the enemy instead of relying on a 4++ to begin with.

 

The ONLY time I would take Swords is on ICs like my GM and my Libby.

 

Sure killing people in assaults before they strike is sweet, but that won't help much from shooting. Unless I'm missing a rumour and the force sword save increase is only for assaults?

 

As for GK Strike squads - you said it, the cost. If you inflate the cost of your 1 attack each squad you are asking for opponents to just shoot you dead with their superior numbers.

[HERO]

Standard Force Swords are good because they come, well, standard. That means they are cost effective for their benefits. What with Hammer Hand, you're looking at S5 Terminators with 4+ invulnerable saves.

 

This really comes into it's own when taking Paladins. They have 2 wounds anyway and are expensive, so taking a standard weapon which increases their survivability for no extra cost is fiendish. With the wound allocation rules Paladins are the new Ork Nobz!

 

What benefit does Swords have on PAGK? Nothing.

What about Termies? +1 Invul.

 

So on PAGK, the only thing holding them back is points, which is why they'll keep swords IF I ever take GKSS. Otherwise, I would just take Purifiers, they're better in every way.

 

For Termies, sure, 4++ Invul is great, but wouldn't you want to kill your enemy before they even get to strike? You minimize rolling saves by killing the enemy instead of relying on a 4++ to begin with.

 

The ONLY time I would take Swords is on ICs like my GM and my Libby.

 

Sure killing people in assaults before they strike is sweet, but that won't help much from shooting. Unless I'm missing a rumour and the force sword save increase is only for assaults?

 

As for GK Strike squads - you said it, the cost. If you inflate the cost of your 1 attack each squad you are asking for opponents to just shoot you dead with their superior numbers.

 

In case you've been missing for the last week, Swords only give you +1 Invul in CC ONLY.

[lordsloth]

imho (and similarly as to what has been said in the thread at times)

 

terminators: halberds all the way. speed means having to take fewer saves, you cant fail a save you dont have to take while a 4++ still fails half the time. yes there are circumstances where the initiative is useless (particularly fast elfs, th/ss termies) but on the whole i6 is gonna be very usefull. Only on a squad with a librarian (quickening) would i keep the swords for the save. Always include one hammer though.

 

strike/purgation: plain swords. sure you get no additional benefit but imho this is a shooty unit, focus on that and keep the melee aspect barebones (barebones still means force weapon in this case, nothing to scoff at). Maybe one halberd for when initiative tests need to be taken. (In which case, should it be taken on the justicar for more attacks or on a non justicar so it wont get periled? something to consider. probably justicar though)

 

purifiers: halberds for the same reasons as the terminators, maybe include one hammer if points allow. falchions if theyre running with a libby escort and if you can afford it pointswise.

 

interceptors: is anybody even going to run these? in any case, theyre already very expensive so probably focus on shooting and leave the melee upgrades alone

 

grand master/libby: sword for the ++ boost in cc. warding is probably too expensive here.

[Inache]

I think interceptors could be a useful CC force if equipped with falchions. They're still jump troops, and that 30" move can put them in a sweet spot for a late game shoot and assault. Put them far enough away that the guarding unit either moves off the objective to rob them of their +1A on the charge or face a storm of force weapons on the next turn.

[lordsloth]

I think interceptors could be a useful CC force if equipped with falchions. They're still jump troops, and that 30" move can put them in a sweet spot for a late game shoot and assault. Put them far enough away that the guarding unit either moves off the objective to rob them of their +1A on the charge or face a storm of force weapons on the next turn.

 

im not sure if the falchions are 5 or 10 points for them.

at 31 pts per model ... maybe, but i doubt it

at 36 points per model ... forget about it

[monkeyking]

Eh, speed isn't going to save you against most dedicated assault troops. Nor is it going to clear out the tarpit you find yourself in when you get buried in a horde.

 

Units that Halberds won't save you from. Genestealers, Furious Charging Genestealers, Furious Charging Hormagaunts, Lashwhip/Bonesword Warriors, Howling Banshees, Harlequins, Almost every FA Selection for DE and almost any DE unit with 2 pain tokens,

 

Frankly, for GKSS, I'd just say get a hammer, maybe some falchions to clear a possible tarpit faster, maybe one staff and only one, to soak PW and occasional rending wounds, but otherwise stick with swords. The unit is there for Psycannon and Warpquake support, not force weapons.

 

Interceptors might do ok with just halberds, buts its gonna up their cost a lot, and given their movement advantage, you should be hitting slower squishier targets with them so it shouldn't be necessary really. Falchions would actually be better, since you'd proly get the assault and 3A on the charge with FW isn't anything to scoff at.

 

For Purifiers, halberds will proly be fine do to reduced cost and they have a good number of attacks already, but remember your gonna be down 2 FW per 5 guys because of special weapons, and again, having a single staff will help mitigate the worst of PW and rending hits.

 

As for Termi's, Halberds are fine, cause there free, but I'd proly put a staff on my Psicannon guys since I don't want them to get clipped out from under me when the unit he's in gets countercharged by something scary. A 5 man group of terminators I'd proly layout 2 halberds for targetting ICs in B2B, 1 sword fora bit more damage control, 1 hammer, and 1 staff for the Psicannon guy.

 

Also remember that Librarians can buff a unit with I10 for an assault, so any kind of Librarian escort is proly going to be Falchoins all the way, with a staff for the Psicannon guy and proly the Librarian, since I need him to buff the group. A hammer won't be needed unless you didn't get Might of Titan on the Librarian as well, and if so, take a hammer.

 

On GM's, Bro-Caps and Bro-Champs, I'd stick with just the sword, giving them a 3++ in cc.

[HERO]

Eh, speed isn't going to save you against most dedicated assault troops. Nor is it going to clear out the tarpit you find yourself in when you get buried in a horde.

 

Units that Halberds won't save you from. Genestealers, Furious Charging Genestealers, Furious Charging Hormagaunts, Lashwhip/Bonesword Warriors, Howling Banshees, Harlequins, Almost every FA Selection for DE and almost any DE unit with 2 pain tokens,

 

I don't understand this philosophy of thinking.

 

I6 makes you go faster than everything other than FC Genes and Harlequins. Everything else is either tied, or is swept aside by fire and Stormbolter.

 

If you don't take the Halberds, the list you just named grows exponetionally, and that in itself proves that speed is the preferred way of reducing attacks back.

 

/facepalm