Tactica: Nemesis-Force Weapons

[Captain Idaho]

Initiative bonuses are great and all, but only in select places in your list. Grey Knights are going to expensive to be half way competetive (to combat vehicles etc), without increasing speed universally on units which don't need the initiative boost to be effective.

 

A 5-man GK Terminator squad could do with, say, 2 Halberds, a Daemon Hammer (or whatever the S10 one was) and 2 force swords.. That way you can kill things before they strike in some circumstances but still retain increased survivability and come in slightly cheaper.

 

Your main combat units can act as a counter assault with higher initiative, but all your army, especially those 1 attack basic GKs, it becomes unneccessary points increases.

 

And having initiative 6 won't protect your GK from a plasma cannon, Imperial Guard pie plates, Typhoons squadrons etc.

 

Don't get me wrong, a Force Halberd is great and would definitely be on my Grand Master (if I took the GK plunge) and on the occassion model throughout the force, but I wouldn't discount the basic Force Sword.

[BrotherWasted]

On a Strike Squad, it's pretty much the consensus, even HERO's as previously stated, that they are best left with Swords.

 

The issue is regarding "which weapon is best for a dedicated CC unit". You're not going to be giving Halberds to every unit in your army, just those who are intent on getting into CC. The discussion at hand isn't even focused on shooting, either. And in that respect, GKs are like regular marines, with the same defense and transport options now.

 

I do see your side of the argument, though. A Halberd is +5 ppm, making that 50 points across a 10man squad. I believe Halberds are free for Paladins/Purifiers, though, so there is no detriment in terms of points.

 

Halberds on your A2 models will nigh on obliterate any unit they face thanks to the high initiative and their armor/invuln saves will shrug off most of the retaliatory attacks - that is something no CC unit should be passing up. But from a points perspective they may end up a significant points sink depending on the list. I think I'll side with you on this one, Captain - you shouldn't discount the ability of 20 I4 Force Sword attacks on the charge (which is what's going to happen when a regular GKSS squad attacks). Not to mention the couple of MEQ you'll kill from all that Storm Bolter fire before hand. Sure, you'll swing at the same time as MEQ, but you are pretty much guaranteed to win combat due to the number of casualties you cause by bypassing their armor saves. Hitting and wounding Marines on 3+ with S5 stormbolters will easily thin their ranks allowing you to mop up in CC even with a basic GKSS squad. and then you still get to wound them on 3+ if you use Hammerhand.

 

Yes, halberds are awesome. But if you're looking to get more bodies on the table, like me, don't discount the ability of standard Force Sword. "What advantage does a Force Sword give?". It's a Force Weapon. Against any unit with an equal number of attacks as you, that is the advantage. Everyone in your army has Force Weapons. EVERYONE. You get to ignore every single armor save in the game. All those times where an MEQ wounds someone and gets a save don't apply to you. Your standard trooper has the chance to cause Instant Death, at no extra points cost.

[hmk17]

On a Strike Squad, it's pretty much the consensus, even HERO's as previously stated, that they are best left with Swords.

 

The issue is regarding "which weapon is best for a dedicated CC unit". You're not going to be giving Halberds to every unit in your army, just those who are intent on getting into CC. The discussion at hand isn't even focused on shooting, either. And in that respect, GKs are like regular marines, with the same defense and transport options now.

 

I do see your side of the argument, though. A Halberd is +5 ppm, making that 50 points across a 10man squad. I believe Halberds are free for Paladins/Purifiers, though, so there is no detriment in terms of points.

 

Halberds on your A2 models will nigh on obliterate any unit they face thanks to the high initiative and their armor/invuln saves will shrug off most of the retaliatory attacks - that is something no CC unit should be passing up. But from a points perspective they may end up a significant points sink depending on the list. I think I'll side with you on this one, Captain - you shouldn't discount the ability of 20 I4 Force Sword attacks on the charge (which is what's going to happen when a regular GKSS squad attacks). Not to mention the couple of MEQ you'll kill from all that Storm Bolter fire before hand. Sure, you'll swing at the same time as MEQ, but you are pretty much guaranteed to win combat due to the number of casualties you cause by bypassing their armor saves. Hitting and wounding Marines on 3+ with S5 stormbolters will easily thin their ranks allowing you to mop up in CC even with a basic GKSS squad. and then you still get to wound them on 3+ if you use Hammerhand.

 

Yes, halberds are awesome. But if you're looking to get more bodies on the table, like me, don't discount the ability of standard Force Sword. "What advantage does a Force Sword give?". It's a Force Weapon. Against any unit with an equal number of attacks as you, that is the advantage. Everyone in your army has Force Weapons. EVERYONE. You get to ignore every single armor save in the game. All those times where an MEQ wounds someone and gets a save don't apply to you. Your standard trooper has the chance to cause Instant Death, at no extra points cost.

 

They are 2pts, not free

[BrotherWasted]

Understood. That's still only 20pts across one of those squads, which is fine.

[Angelust]

I think a good rule of thumb is to spend the points for a Halberd on a justicar of a SS squad, spend some points to at least equip a majority of Purifiers with Halberds, and give Halberds to Terminators liberally.

 

The problem with upgrading GK with Halberds when it adds 20-50 points to the squad is that the answer to killing CC squads is usually to shoot at them. If my plasma-CCS squad rolls up on 10 Strike Squad marines with Halberds, it isn't any more difficult to shoot at than 10 GKSS guys with swords, but the opposing army is smaller for that upgrade.

 

The same would be true with poison spamming DE, focus-fire mech eldar, shooty SM, Tau, etc.

 

Having 1 guy with 2 attacks buy a Halberd might be worth it for the chance to kill monstrous creatures and slow ICs before they blenderize your squad, but you're adding 10-25% to a unit's cost to add that +2 initiative across the board for regular PAGKs.

[monkeyking]

Eh, speed isn't going to save you against most dedicated assault troops. Nor is it going to clear out the tarpit you find yourself in when you get buried in a horde.

 

Units that Halberds won't save you from. Genestealers, Furious Charging Genestealers, Furious Charging Hormagaunts, Lashwhip/Bonesword Warriors, Howling Banshees, Harlequins, Almost every FA Selection for DE and almost any DE unit with 2 pain tokens,

 

I don't understand this philosophy of thinking.

 

I6 makes you go faster than everything other than FC Genes and Harlequins. Everything else is either tied, or is swept aside by fire and Stormbolter.

 

If you don't take the Halberds, the list you just named grows exponetionally, and that in itself proves that speed is the preferred way of reducing attacks back.

 

/facepalm

 

You forgot Howling Banshees. They have fleet, and when played competently will most likely get the I10 charge.

 

This philosophy of thinking occurs because GKSS are not up to taking on dedicated assaulters at all, you simply can't kill enough of them to make up for the pounding you going to take. Most of them are MUCH MUCH cheaper than your guys before adding halberds, and dropping another 50pts or so on them to trick yourself into thinking GKSS are an effective CC unit would be better spent going toward another 5 man GKSS squad to ensure that assaulting elements don't make it to you in the first place. Halberds are simply too inefficient points wise to bother with on GKSS. It'd be better, and cheaper to give them Psyammo and a Psycannon.

 

With terminators, they're fine though, since they're free. Best if used to eviscerate an IC, for both the quick kill point and the demoralized look on your opponents face.

[HERO]

I have never said GKSS should have Halberds. Only Purifiers or Termies should. Why? Cause one they have two attacks. two they're either free or dirt cheap. Three they are much better front line units than the SS.

 

Iphone

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah I'm pretty much in agreement.

 

- Strike squads are fire support first, close-combat second. I'd take a hammer on the Justicar maybe, but thats it. Stick them in Rhinos (so you don't get ordnance/plasma cannon/massed S5/6 tearing you up) and plink away with psycannons. Same for Purgation squads (although in their case, stick them in cover with a 'Shrouding' Libby or park their Rhino in front to block LOS for the enemy (but then use 'Astral Aim' to hax shoot them back).

- Purifiers really need halberds, and a hammer on the Keeper of the Flame would help bail them out of combat with walkers (monsters will probably avoid you). Don't forget to take the four free incinerators, they'll account for probably half the enemy squad before you even make it into combat (you'll evaporate hordes when you combo with 'Cleansing Flame').

- For Paladins, you really need halberds, and a hammer somewhere, for the same reason as Purifiers. Don't forget to set up wound-allocation shenanigans (my ideal combo is Paladin w/Brotherhood Banner+incinerator, Paladin w/storm bolter+hammer, Apothecary w/narthecium+halberd, Paladin w/storm bolter+halberd).

- For Troop Terminators, same deal (halberd+incinerator, 3 x halberds, 1 x hammer).

- Interceptor squads are kinda meh, I'd rather get moar Terminators. If you are planning on taking them, halberds are a good choice, as you get no bonus from swords, and you're basically assault marines.

[ValourousHeart]

So do falcions grant +1A or +2A?

 

I know the codex says +1, but since the model is armed with 2 identical special weapons would they get the second bonus attack from the BRB?

Or is the codex just redundant and restating the rule from the BRB?

 

The fluff description make it sound as though the GK is able to attack much faster than normal... And normal would be just the BRB rule granting +1A for have two similar weapons.

[Marmande]

I think the falchions are just two swords, therefore you get +1 attack for having two weapons, not +2 overall.

[BrotherWasted]

you get one bonus attack. just one.

 

all you're really doing is taking away one sword and giving two falchions in return. Net gain? one weapon, one additional attack. Just like the rules state.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Which makes falchions kinda pointless really, when you compare them to halberds or even hammers. You don't really need more attacks, you need either ninja speed or walker-crushing attacks. If you're keen on getting more attacks out of them, a Brotherhood Banner is an excellent buy.

[SamaNagol]

If you have any intention of being in combat, then you want Halberds. The best way of ensuring your 25 pt models don't die is to kill the enemy first. I6 Power Weapons will do that.

 

Every Justicar I take will be armed with a Master Crafted Daemon Hammer.

[Captain Idaho]

Which makes falchions kinda pointless really, when you compare them to halberds or even hammers. You don't really need more attacks, you need either ninja speed or walker-crushing attacks. If you're keen on getting more attacks out of them, a Brotherhood Banner is an excellent buy.

 

I dunno, GK don't have many attacks and the only way to get it is Falchions. Even a Grand Master only has 3 that hit on 3s. Could be useful to have an extra attack on an IC for culling hoards and isn't reliant on Hammer Hand to do it's damage.

 

What everyone forgets when they plan their armies and what units go into it is the operational capacity of units which have suffered losses. They plan using things like 5 Thunder Hammer Terminators and calculate they get 15 S8 attacks on the charge or 10 S8 attacks receiving a charge. What people forget is how effective is the unit when there are only 2 of them left.

 

So the principle remains the same. You have 2 Terminators left and a Captain attached on an objective and are charged by a unit of 15 Orks. You don't have much killing potential left. An extra attack that re-rolls failed wounds allows for the Captain to be more sure of killing stuff and allows for a different power to be used (or if you fluff a test or it's nullified).

 

Can't imagine there are many models which will need this weapon but the options are there.

[SamaNagol]

Falchions do not re-roll failed wounds. They only confer +1A. They are rather rubbish

[Captain Idaho]

They are force lightning claws.

[SamaNagol]

They are simply +1A Nemesis Force Weapons in the final codex, I am afraid

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree that you do need to plan for casualties, but you shouldn't be fighting hordes with anything other than ranged attacks, Dreadnoughts (haha can't hurt me) or Purifiers (free incinerators+Cleansing Flame = no more Orks). You're paying for force weapons, not lots of S4 punches (hence why Chaos Marines have more attacks, but not universal force weapons). Grey Knights are all about quality over quantity in close-combat (although the opposite applies in our shooting phase, where we definitely like our massed dakka leveraging the averages). Ideally, you'll wanna pick fights with units of 10 models or less. Halberds let you strike pretty fast, and for things faster than you, you have massed dakka to blow them apart (it's very rare to find a unit with speed in close-combat and noteworthy ranged attacks). So when you mention Space Clowns or Genestealers, yeah sure they make halberds kinda marginal. But you should never get in combat with them anyway, you should choose to walk backwards and blast them with storm bolter.

 

I was leaning towards falchions based on the rumours they were lightning claws (as in take a few mixed in with halberds, or maybe on a Libby or Grandmaster), but now I won't bother. A couple of extra attacks is meaningless (especially when you consider that on Paladins and Terminators, you get Brotherhood Banners as an option). I'd prefer either super speed, or at least a few models breaking your Landraider/walker open with a hammer.

[Captain Idaho]

I was leaning towards falchions based on the rumours they were lightning claws (as in take a few mixed in with halberds, or maybe on a Libby or Grandmaster), but now I won't bother. A couple of extra attacks is meaningless (especially when you consider that on Paladins and Terminators, you get Brotherhood Banners as an option). I'd prefer either super speed, or at least a few models breaking your Landraider/walker open with a hammer.

 

I rescind my comments, since they were based upon the benefit of having an extra attack AND re-rolls to wounds. Since they haven't I wouldn't bother with them either!

[lordsloth]

I was leaning towards falchions based on the rumours they were lightning claws (as in take a few mixed in with halberds, or maybe on a Libby or Grandmaster), but now I won't bother. A couple of extra attacks is meaningless (especially when you consider that on Paladins and Terminators, you get Brotherhood Banners as an option). I'd prefer either super speed, or at least a few models breaking your Landraider/walker open with a hammer.

 

I rescind my comments, since they were based upon the benefit of having an extra attack AND re-rolls to wounds. Since they haven't I wouldn't bother with them either!

 

I think they might be worth it in a cc squad led by a libby if the init 10 power survived till the final dex. Though only if you have the points to spare.

[BrotherWasted]

I'm still torn about the Falchions. I find the thought of 40 force weapon attacks on the charge from a Purifier Squad quite disturbing. Add Grand Strategy to give them Counter-Attack and voila.

[Oiad]

If falchions had been priced at the same costs as the hammers or halberds they would likely be up for consideration. Alternatively, if they re-rolled to-wound as well as providing the extra attack they would be worth the extra 5 points they are now. As it is we're spoilt for options, two of which are more effective at a lower cost and that helps in such an expensive army. There maybe room for them at times. I think taking halberds will be pointless against low initiative armies so if you can't whack in the extra unit you may decide to take a few falchions instead.

[Loher]

- On a standard GKSS: Halberds (Force Weapons, +2I) - 5 ppm

Hammers (Force Weapons, 2x Str) - 10 ppm

Falchions (Force Weapons, +1A) - 10 ppm

 

Seems like 1xhammer and a couple of psycannnon+psybolt would be the standard setting for this unit.

[SamaNagol]

You can MasterCraft the weapon on the Justicar/Knight of Flame in any unit for 5pts. So in general I have been MCing the DaemonHammer on the Justicar to ensure that those extra attacks at S8 with stun property definitely hit.

[Valerian]

You can MasterCraft the weapon on the Justicar/Knight of Flame in any unit for 5pts. So in general I have been MCing the DaemonHammer on the Justicar to ensure that those extra attacks at S8 with stun property definitely hit.

 

Great plan, and probably the only time that MC will be worth it.

 

My plan is to get the models to add a Hammer to every squad, keep a half-and-half mixture of Swords and Halberds in my GKT squads, and keep all of the Halberds that are already on my PAGKs.

 

V