Official Grey Knights Codex open for viewing in GW stores

[the Fell Hand]

Shoot them. Shoot them lots.

Close combat is simply not an option, unless you're happy to lose a squad to finish off one of theirs (after you've shot it up)/

 

I've seen quite a few Space Wolves players get a bit narked that we can't simply charge straight into close combat and that we have to shoot instead...which takes me back to:

 

 

"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous" he said.

 

Well done Sir. That quote alone makes me want to workout to a montage of 80's songs, then paint Space Wolves.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Saga of the bear on your WL with TWM is still as great a buy as ever.

 

I am getting this information second hand, but don't most GK guys have some force weapon ability that removes a wounded model from the table if it fails a leadership test? Bear would still be good, but every once in a while the WL would fail his test and die from one wound....

[hmk17]

Saga of the bear on your WL with TWM is still as great a buy as ever.

 

I am getting this information second hand, but don't most GK guys have some force weapon ability that removes a wounded model from the table if it fails a leadership test? Bear would still be good, but every once in a while the WL would fail his test and die from one wound....

 

All Grey Knights have Force Weapons (except for 1-2 special characters) Force Weapons, as of BRB p.50, allow the psyker to perform a psychic test if he caused any unsaved wounds. If the test is successful, the wounded model suffers instant death. The Leadership Test thing is the Tyranid Boneswords special rule.

 

Eternal Warrior beats Force Weapons, as models with the rule are immune to instant death mechanics. Thus Saga of the Bear is gold.

 

All Force Weapons are power weapons, so even if you are immune to instant death, its not wise to go wading into a bunch of those.

 

 

 

While C:GK is the rock to Wound Allocation's scissors, it means less emphasis on TWC spam for competitive play and more emphasis on more solid builds.

 

As Darkseer pointed out, C:SW is an all around package. The biggest issue of the shooting game is who goes first.

 

 

The only real issue I see for C:SW is Monkey spam. And that's only until it gets faced and tactics can be discussed.

[nurglez]

I look forward to playing vs grey knights, marines that cost more and die as easily as marines, cool. Sure their termies can be more elite, but that just means they have less models.

 

Like any new codex, hearing the rumours makes it seem more powerful, (omg nids, omg blood angels, omg dark elder etc), but when it comes to the battle field, we will see them for how they are :)

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Saga of the bear on your WL with TWM is still as great a buy as ever.

 

I am getting this information second hand, but don't most GK guys have some force weapon ability that removes a wounded model from the table if it fails a leadership test? Bear would still be good, but every once in a while the WL would fail his test and die from one wound....

 

All Grey Knights have Force Weapons (except for 1-2 special characters) Force Weapons, as of BRB p.50, allow the psyker to perform a psychic test if he caused any unsaved wounds. If the test is successful, the wounded model suffers instant death. The Leadership Test thing is the Tyranid Boneswords special rule.

 

Ah, ok, that makes sense. I know EW trumps ID. Maybe I heard wrong, or maybe whoever said it got it wrong, but there was something about "removing from the table" rather than ID, somewhere in that new codex....

[d@n]

For everyone singing the praises of plasma they have a thing that makes plasma weapons bs1 :)

[Quillen]

What is this thing? And how does it work?

[d@n]

I dont know, the manager of my gw told me about it

[Valerian]

Ragnar Blackmane seems a good enemy agasint them now.

 

Mostly because he and his squad can be the bane of many elite armies: LOTS of attacks with boosted Str. and Init.

 

Of course, this is only for me, because if I ever see Halberds in game, I will as hell as possible shoot them!

 

Oh, and Ragnar got his Inv. Save anyway, since is not an equipment.

 

Ran

 

I play a Ragnar list (always have!), but I also have over 3,000 points of Grey Knights. Needless to say, I am really looking forward to breaking out my Knights again for some games. Anyway, ever since the Knights PDF, reliable rumors, and now the actual codex is available in black boxes, I've been thinking about how my Knights and Wolves would match up. To be honest, I think I'll just have to put models on the board and play some mock lists. Luckily for the Wolves, we've got a very good codex that is powerful and well balanced. I think some other armies are going to have a tough time. I think over time, as more Knights armies come out of moth balls, the meta game will have to change. Options that players have taken for all-comers lists will have to be reevaluated.

 

Back to your point, I'm not sure Ragnar is the answer; even with his Furious Charge, he'll be going simultaneous with Knights with Halberds, and the unit he's attached to will still go last. His extra attacks for the unit will help, for those left alive after the Knights have attacked, but it still doesn't gaurantee a win.

 

 

V

[Valerian]

For everyone singing the praises of plasma they have a thing that makes plasma weapons bs1 :o

 

That's from a Plasma Syphon, which is only available to an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, I believe. You probably won't see many of those.

 

Valerian

[Maalis]

Saga of the bear on your WL with TWM is still as great a buy as ever.

 

I am getting this information second hand, but don't most GK guys have some force weapon ability that removes a wounded model from the table if it fails a leadership test? Bear would still be good, but every once in a while the WL would fail his test and die from one wound....

 

All Grey Knights have Force Weapons (except for 1-2 special characters) Force Weapons, as of BRB p.50, allow the psyker to perform a psychic test if he caused any unsaved wounds. If the test is successful, the wounded model suffers instant death. The Leadership Test thing is the Tyranid Boneswords special rule.

 

Ah, ok, that makes sense. I know EW trumps ID. Maybe I heard wrong, or maybe whoever said it got it wrong, but there was something about "removing from the table" rather than ID, somewhere in that new codex....

If I remember right, GKs can take a banner that makes them automatically pass psychic tests..

[Valerian]

Saga of the bear on your WL with TWM is still as great a buy as ever.

 

I am getting this information second hand, but don't most GK guys have some force weapon ability that removes a wounded model from the table if it fails a leadership test? Bear would still be good, but every once in a while the WL would fail his test and die from one wound....

 

All Grey Knights have Force Weapons (except for 1-2 special characters) Force Weapons, as of BRB p.50, allow the psyker to perform a psychic test if he caused any unsaved wounds. If the test is successful, the wounded model suffers instant death. The Leadership Test thing is the Tyranid Boneswords special rule.

 

Ah, ok, that makes sense. I know EW trumps ID. Maybe I heard wrong, or maybe whoever said it got it wrong, but there was something about "removing from the table" rather than ID, somewhere in that new codex....

 

That's how it is written in the current/old dex, not how it will be in the new one. It'll just be instant Death, so EW will help protect you (unless your playing a Daemon).

 

There is a banner for Terminator units (regular and Paladin), that allows you to automatically pass the test for ID only (and gives everyone an extra attack in close combat).

 

V

[Jaton666]

That's from a Plasma Syphon, which is only available to an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, I believe. You probably won't see many of those.

 

Valerian

 

Does the new GK codex have ordo xenos units in it then?

[jeremy1391]

Easy way to beat them plasma spam and vindicators :P

Or you can make the "grey wolf knights" using wolf guard but have base attacks 2 and and counter attack..... Not to worried.

[Valerian]

That's from a Plasma Syphon, which is only available to an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, I believe. You probably won't see many of those.

 

Valerian

 

Does the new GK codex have ordo xenos units in it then?

 

Yes and No. Just a generic Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, Inquisitor Valeria, an OX special character, and the Henchmen unit (the same henchmen, regardless of Ordo. Just a few units, and no Deathwatch units.

 

Easy way to beat them plasma spam and vindicators :)

Or you can make the "grey wolf knights" using wolf guard but have base attacks 2 and and counter attack..... Not to worried.

 

Sure Plasma and Vindicators will help, but the Knights have quite a few ways to knock out Vindicators early, and at 12" to 24" will easily out-shoot Plasma Hunter packs, especially with Psybolt ammo and two Psycannon in each squad. Wolf Guard aren't a great answer either. You could give a pack of 10 WG all Storm Bolters and Power Weapons and they'd be way more expensive, but much less capable than a Purifier Squad.

 

Again, I'm not saying that they can't be beat, and a good Wolves list can do it, but I advise against sweeping generalizations about how to do it. It'll take some serious analysis and trial and error experimentation to figure out how you are going to beat the Grey Knights with the models/units that you have to choose from.

 

V

[Lord Ragnarok]

Some things to keep in mind.

 

Dreads have an ability which reduces leadership during psychic tests to 6. So casting powers will be harder (harder for both if we take more RP's)

Rifleman dreads can have strength 8 with psybolt ammo (increase of str by +1)

GK's have some Jotww type powers which simply remove models from play. (its a template) Bear wont help with that. But yes, Bear is still essential if you run a T.Lord

Vindicares will be able to remove storm shields and belts of russes. They can pick individual models in a pack.

[Ranwulf]

Ragnar Blackmane seems a good enemy agasint them now.

 

Mostly because he and his squad can be the bane of many elite armies: LOTS of attacks with boosted Str. and Init.

 

Of course, this is only for me, because if I ever see Halberds in game, I will as hell as possible shoot them!

 

Oh, and Ragnar got his Inv. Save anyway, since is not an equipment.

 

Ran

 

I play a Ragnar list (always have!), but I also have over 3,000 points of Grey Knights. Needless to say, I am really looking forward to breaking out my Knights again for some games. Anyway, ever since the Knights PDF, reliable rumors, and now the actual codex is available in black boxes, I've been thinking about how my Knights and Wolves would match up. To be honest, I think I'll just have to put models on the board and play some mock lists. Luckily for the Wolves, we've got a very good codex that is powerful and well balanced. I think some other armies are going to have a tough time. I think over time, as more Knights armies come out of moth balls, the meta game will have to change. Options that players have taken for all-comers lists will have to be reevaluated.

 

Back to your point, I'm not sure Ragnar is the answer; even with his Furious Charge, he'll be going simultaneous with Knights with Halberds, and the unit he's attached to will still go last. His extra attacks for the unit will help, for those left alive after the Knights have attacked, but it still doesn't gaurantee a win.

 

 

V

 

That's why I said, kill the Halberds first.

 

Even so, they still are Ws4 and Str 4. With only 1 attack(basic Grey Knights), they have a small chance of REALLY crippling Ragnar's squad.

 

Oh, and it does help if I get my Land Raider at him with Flamestorm cannons.

 

Ran

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

That's why I said, kill the Halberds first.

 

How's that going to work if the halberds are just squad members? you'd assume that they're the last to die, if anything...

 

I'm not so sure Ragnar will be the one thing that'll turn the tide. He's capable of doing that, but the grey knights player knows that, so he'll do his very best to make sure you don't get him where you need him. Better to have multiple elements that can work together to achieve the same thing because it's harder to completely cripple them.

[DV8]

I have to wonder at how much of this is actual speculation, and how much of you have actually seen and given the Grey Knight codex a really thorough read through to understand just how the Grey Knights will actually work on the tabletop.

 

For one thing, I agree with Valerian; many of you are being FAR too speculative as to what you think will or won't work against Grey Knights, when in actual fact, you're really approaching this the wrong way.

 

For starters, and at the end of the day, Grey Knights are still Space Marines. T4 with a 3+ save (and Terminators still only a 2+/5+). The same weapons that will kill a Space Marine will kill a Grey Knight. However, you cannot approach facing a Grey Knight army like you would a Space Marine army, because of several factors.

 

1. Cost. There is a reason that Grey Knights are so damned bloody expensive. It's an army of heroes; and they are so priced because every single unit is a potent threat on the battlefield. A generic squad of Grey Knight Space Marines will wipe the floor with most other units in the game, barring the few rare exceptions. You cannot hope to just throw something into combat against Grey Knights and hope to win; the amount of buffs they can give their army borders on the ludicrous, and it will take forethought and planning to really take them down. It won't be as easy as "I'll throw my Land Raider Redeemer at them".
   
2. This leads nicely into point two. Numbers. The more fun toys a Grey Knight army will have, the fewer models the army will have. Which means that every hit the army takes will count, and every unit lost will put a big dent into their force.
   
3. Psykers against a Grey Knight army (I'm looking at you Jeske) is not the greatest idea. This army was designed to eat Psykers alive. Daemons and Tyranids will not like facing Grey Knights, and even Eldar will quake in their boots. Nevermind that Space Marines field some of the weakest (defensively) psykers in the game.
   
4. Synergy. The Grey Knights book will rely far more heavily on unit synergy than before, based on the points above, and based largely on the kind of buffs that the Grey Knights can receive from their characters (and in fact, the units themselves).
   

 

I see such typically bland/generic/usual responses like "I'll just throw Ragnar Blackmane/Arjac/plasma-spam Wolf Guard/Land Raiders" and chuckle, because Grey Knights have an answer for each and everyone one of those, in even their most basic units.

 

Vindicares with Turbo-Penetrator rounds (3+4D6 armor penetration, for an average of 17) will eat your heavy armor alive, and even their generic units, with the right buffs, can and will eat your characters alive. Your expensive Wolf Guard will never make it to the Grey Knights intact (Warp Quake makes Drop Podding a no-no, and whatever transports you have won't live long enough for you to use them), and whatever other expensively ridiculous counter-unit simply won't work.

 

You can't fight an army of heroes with your own "heroes" because lets be honest here...the new Grey Knight book has, on an individual level, the most powerful units in the game. A generic Grey Knight squad will literally curb-stomp units like Mephiston without breaking a sweat and you think units like your Ragnar/Arjac/Thunderlords will work? The only thing you have going for you is an Invulnerable save, and you don't have the wounds to survive the blows coming your way.

 

A balanced list, and strong tactical/strategic play above everything else will be what wins you the day.

 

And in a competitive Grey Knight army, I can see several units becoming quite popular:

 

Grand Masters with Rad Grenades. With the ability to reduce an enemy unit's Toughness by 1 on the charge (and this counts for their Instant Death threshold), coupled with Grand Strategy, these guys are a practical must have.

 

Librarians, top powers being Might of the Titans, Quicksilver, and The Summoning. With the ability to cast two a turn, you can guarantee that whatever unit they are attached to is never one you want to engage with in combat. They will be virtually unstoppable.

 

Vindicare Assassins, which will wreck your day and castrate your units. Their special ammunition and the ability to pick out any target (save ones locked in combat or out of line of sight), coupled with infiltration, means that they will be a veritable thorn in your side. No vehicle is safe and infantry (like Wolf Guard with Power Fists) will bite the dust (hit on 2+, reroll 4+, wound on 2+ AP2) quite early on.

 

Psyfle-men Dreadnoughts (Mortis Dreadnoughts with Psy-bolt Ammunition) will make a mess of your transports. At a measly 135 points, these bad boys put out 4 twin-linked S8 shots per turn. Coupled with Razorbacks and Psy-bolt Heavy Bolters (S6 shots), your own transports won't live very long.

 

Storm Ravens, for their speed and the ability to transport Terminators. Unfortunately, the bulk of the Grey Knight characters can only be taken in Terminator Armor (Draigos, Modrak, Stern, Grand Masters, Brother-Captains, Librarians, etc.), and the only real quick way to transport them is in Storm Ravens or Land Raiders. With the firepower they mount, coupled with their speed, Storm Ravens are the better choice. Their Mind-strike missiles will also come in hand against Psykers (see below).

 

EDIT:

 

Rockets still bust dreads, rhino's chimeras, razorbacks, storm ravens, and pops PAGK squads, so they are still more than useful. Rapid firing bolters works just like it used to. Saga of the bear on your WL with TWM is still as great a buy as ever. Melta's still ID's the multiwound termies, and those Las/Plas razorbacks are just as good as ever. The guys who run plasma packs might be seeing more bang for their buck with those squads. Our Runepriests might become very coveted for their ability to just deny without letting the grey knights play in our reindeer games. (4+ deny without a roll off)

 

The trick is getting your guys there alive, and you had best hope at rapid fire range that you kill whatever it is you're shooting at.

 

Rune Priests are also great for Psychic Power denial; in fact with so many of the Grey Knight buffs reliant on using Psychic Powers, our Rune Priests provide almost the best psychic defense in the game (barring Shadow of the Warp and Runes of Warding/Witnessing (Forget which one forces 3D6 rolls). The issue is keeping your Rune Priests alive long enough. See below.

 

That's why I said, kill the Halberds first.

 

Halberds will be on generic infantry, and between Swords for Terminators (+1 inv save in combat) and the occasional Hammer (basically Thunder Hammers) for killing Dreadnoughts or things that hit the Grey Knights they can't normally take out, Halberds (+2 Initiative) will be almost stock upgrades for any unit even remotely designed for combat.

 

And that's not forgetting that all Grey Knight close combat weapons are still Nemesis Force Weapons.

 

still RP[even better now] still LF with RL, still LL/Jaws good . still spaming GH . still speeders with RL good. nothing changes for SW. [unless I dont know someone played a razor gunline and used mystics , then he loses a unit].

 

You're assuming your Rune Priests will live long enough. As soon as the Rune Priest is visible to the enemy army, there are a couple things at range that will automatically ruin your day:

 

A Vindicare Assassin can put a Turbo-penetrator round through his forehead and inflict 2 Wounds automatically.

 

My personal favorite, and why Storm Ravens will be the staple in any Grey Knight army: Mindstrike missiles. You look at their stats and they seem weak enough, replacing the Bloodstrikes found on the Blood Angels version. 48", S4, AP5, small blast. Bah, can't do much. They also inflict an automatic Perils of the Warp on any psyker hit by the blast. Fire off a couple of those babies at your Rune Priests...or Mephiston, or Hive Tyrants, or Farseers...you get the picture?

 

It's also difficult to hide long enough to take down the Storm Raven(s) before they do that kind of damage. Grand Masters (with Grand Strategy) can give D3 units a USR, one of which is Scout (Outflanking Storm Ravens anyone?). Fill said Storm Raven with a nice powerful unit, and that leaves you very little room to hide.

 

Even so, they still are Ws4 and Str 4. With only 1 attack(basic Grey Knights), they have a small chance of REALLY crippling Ragnar's squad.

 

Aye but there's only one reason to take regular Grey Knight Strike Squads: cheap Razorbacks and easy access to some scoring units. Units like Purifier Squads will make a mess of your combat units, likewise with Grey Knight Terminators. Paladins will wreck whatever you send at them and beg for more.

 

And again, that's assuming you'll arrive at the enemy intact.

 

Oh, and it does help if I get my Land Raider at him with Flamestorm cannons.

 

Ran

 

Vindicare Assassin fires off a Turbo-Penetrator round at your Land Raider. You might as well not have bothered to deploy that tank.

 

it amazes me everyone is so frightened by the grey knights, can't we do an almost exact same build with our wolf guards? (no i've not laid my eyes on the grey knight dex)

 

We wish our Wolf Guard were as great as Grey Knights.

 

 

DV8

[the jeske]

Psykers against a Grey Knight army (I'm looking at you Jeske) is not the greatest idea. This army was designed to eat Psykers alive. Daemons and Tyranids will not like facing Grey Knights, and even Eldar will quake in their boots. Nevermind that Space Marines field some of the weakest (defensively) psykers in the game.

does that mean a rune staff is bad option suddenly and that SW will stop using them[and nids are now unplayable because half the stuff in the list is a psyker]? the staff is a very good thing , just like against eldar I dont see the priest casting a lot , but having a50% chance [and its on +4 , you can have your Ld droped ] to stop some of their powers is great.

 

A Vindicare Assassin can put a Turbo-penetrator round through his forehead and inflict 2 Wounds automatically

it takes 2 turns . he has to kill the transport first[am not saying he wont , but the RP can rhino hop].

 

 

. Fill said Storm Raven with a nice powerful unit, and that leaves you very little room to hide.

and it may work in the US where people play 2k or more. europe has 1500 . IF a GK takes a Grand master 2 ravents with 2 transport units each he is starting with nothing or almost nothing on the table.

 

 

The trick is getting your guys there alive, and you had best hope at rapid fire range that you kill whatever it is you're shooting at.

but they will strugle against IG and SW which spam cheap and effective troop/support units . Sure DoA armies or other elite/deathstar ones become weaker [and yes nids got another counter list :huh: , because just IG and SW was not enough] , but those werent realy compatetive to begin with. A SW army will be able to get those double taping in range , it will have those LF that still are great against rhinos and rhino class stuff.

 

Am not saying that GK are a bad army , they are good . I see them as more of a shoty-counter army , because of easy spam of good stat psycanons . As an assault army they seem to be a bit too random for me [ they need that ouflank or storm ravens . when they go with a rhino mech force , they are a like BAs only slower etc]. The realy good thing about them is that unlike other shoty marine lists they dont need counter units , as everything that they can take will be able to counter.

[Ranwulf]

That's why I said, kill the Halberds first.

 

How's that going to work if the halberds are just squad members? you'd assume that they're the last to die, if anything...

 

I'm not so sure Ragnar will be the one thing that'll turn the tide. He's capable of doing that, but the grey knights player knows that, so he'll do his very best to make sure you don't get him where you need him. Better to have multiple elements that can work together to achieve the same thing because it's harder to completely cripple them.

 

If you play Space Wolves you know that your army works together. Actually, that's a pretty generic statement for any army.

 

Ragnar is not a "game breaker" against Grey Knights, but the killing blow against it. Since GK will rely(at least pure GK) on very elie marines(who, one Plasma Cannon can be quite devastating), or Paladin Squads that not only are VERY expensive, but also are vulnerable to AP 1 and 2 shots, you send him and his squad against regular marine squads.

 

The thing about Ragnar, right now, against shield breaking(which he is immune), Init. 6 Grey Knights, and Elite army, or a small but quite reslient army(Henchman), he is a good option, at least to fight them, which he "nulls" part of the enemy advantages and is already a killing machine. I know how to use him, I would NEVER send him against a Grey knight full super unit. Heck, I don't do that against regular Space Marines, why would I do that against Grey Knights? He is part(which many people don't think, but I do) of a actually balanced list. You said yourself another day DV8, Space Wolves fight with specialized forces, and Ragnar and his squad are just as well part of this, they are the troop killers(regular squads of Grey Knights), while my other squads take care of other problems. He is NOT to be used against super units alone.

 

About, the Land Raider. Yeah, 4D6 shots, annoying, but we still have our cover saves of Smoke Launchers, can still kill the Assasins with Assault Cannons, just it will realy on getting the Land Raider in the right place in the right turn.

 

Grey knights are freaky and uber, but with all those strenghts, they have some weakness that are exploitable and to tell you the truth, it can completely cripple their army.

[Godhead]

There is lots and lots of theorycrafting and doomsaying in this thread IMO. I previously stated that staple selections in our all comers lists will still be effective vs the greyknights. I still stand by that statement. Some people say they would do this, or I would simply do that, or they would counter this with that, etc etc etc. And yes it can go back and forth. That's where your ability as a general and luck of the dice come into play. I personally feel like the SW codex has the tools to handle what I've seen the Grey Knight codex offers up. The Grey Knights just don't get to show up and claim victory by their sheer presence alone. If they face down Space Wolves, then they have a fight on their hand, and vice versa. That's as it should be. It's why we play the game.

 

Some choices will be less optimal against the Grey Knights but is still a stellar selection vs 3 different armies. That's why you make an all comers list, since you don't know what you will be facing.

 

They have an elite army, we can put more bodies on the table. I don't think they are so OVER POWERED that our codex is hopeless before it. Will you have to play smart and work for the win, probably, but we have the tools to make it happen.

[Ranwulf]

There is lots and lots of theorycrafting and doomsaying in this thread IMO. I previously stated that staple selections in our all comers lists will still be effective vs the greyknights. I still stand by that statement. Some people say they would do this, or I would simply do that, or they would counter this with that, etc etc etc. And yes it can go back and forth. That's where your ability as a general and luck of the dice come into play. I personally feel like the SW codex has the tools to handle what I've seen the Grey Knight codex offers up. The Grey Knights just don't get to show up and claim victory by their sheer presence alone. If they face down Space Wolves, then they have a fight on their hand, and vice versa. That's as it should be. It's why we play the game.

 

Some choices will be less optimal against the Grey Knights but is still a stellar selection vs 3 different armies. That's why you make an all comers list, since you don't know what you will be facing.

 

They have an elite army, we can put more bodies on the table. I don't think they are so OVER POWERED that our codex is hopeless before it. Will you have to play smart and work for the win, probably, but we have the tools to make it happen.

 

Makes sense. Space Wolves are not hard hitters, and they don't have to rely on that to win.

 

Like any other good player, know your army(or at leats know how to use your units), think smart and have fun with the slaughter!

 

Ran

[hmk17]

does that mean a rune staff is bad option suddenly and that SW will stop using them[and nids are now unplayable because half the stuff in the list is a psyker]? the staff is a very good thing , just like against eldar I dont see the priest casting a lot , but having a50% chance [and its on +4 , you can have your Ld droped ] to stop some of their powers is great.

 

No, it doesn't. But he has to be less brazen about "look at me with my magic stick!" There is a lot of Psyker hate in that book on every level. GK players will play it very careful about Runic Weapons when it comes for a big whoosh. Timing will be everything.

 

 

it takes 2 turns . he has to kill the transport first[am not saying he wont , but the RP can rhino hop].

 

Who says he kills the transport? :P Grey Knights have anti-mech too.

 

Seriously though, Vindicare is a scalpel. He will pop out do what is needed then probably die due to massed fire.

 

 

and it may work in the US where people play 2k or more. europe has 1500 .

but they will strugle against IG and SW which spam cheap and effective troop/support units . Sure DoA armies or other elite/deathstar ones become weaker [and yes nids got another counter list :D , because just IG and SW was not enough] , but those werent realy compatetive to begin with. A SW army will be able to get those double taping in range , it will have those LF that still are great against rhinos and rhino class stuff.

 

As you mentioned, it depends on where you play. Where I'm at, I am 1 of 2 Space Wolves players that really don't use Thunderwolves. Of the other 4 players, It's quite common to see 10+ Thunderwolves on any given table. Those are not cheap effective units and are in fact one of the things that GK's counter.

 

GK's are counter to Wound Allocation run rampant, Multi-wound units, and Hordes. Old IG gun line, Vanilla Marines, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Eldar are really the stronger base armies against GK's after a couple of sit downs with the codex.

 

About, the Land Raider. Yeah, 4D6 shots, annoying, but we still have our cover saves of Smoke Launchers, can still kill the Assasins with Assault Cannons, just it will realy on getting the Land Raider in the right place in the right turn.

 

4d6 PEN...1 shot, not shots. Smoke can help, but you are assuming a lot; including who is going first and the basic rules of the models. Actual table top outcomes cannot be predicted in glass box scenarios.

 

 

 

The issue I keep seeing with other players and new codexes is a "Keeping It Real Syndrome". Making total assumptions of most everything (points, scenario, army comp, opponent tactics, AND first turn) in order to crush their hypothetical opponent. There is definitive line between discussing strategies and empty posturing.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Unless there is a good transport shunting / deep striking super build that no one has figured out yet, it seems like GK will be a lot of Psycannon spam in Rhinos, with probably some dreads. We have a lot of shooty things, and we have a good anti-psycher powers. CC isn't going to work so well, but it seems like we'll be able to hold our own alright.