Brother Nathan Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 it actually states in the spacehulk fluf that shooting the hulk asnt possible becasue of its size and because of its proximity to heavily populated worlds. they were i think trying to redirect it using its own engins and then to set off whatever warp generators and blow it up when out of system. but when the nids started waking they had to change plans as there was too many. turning off life support systems etc... and im sure that somewhere it actually states 950 lost. and it is the shame of the chapter(well one of them...) and also the pride becasue we unlike other chapters were actually able to rebuild. probably inhanced becasue of our geanseed proceedures and becasue of our numbers of apothecarys (and other additional support too) and if dante wasnt there were the frag was he? killing a certain bloodthirster again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judaz Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Wait? They didn't know that there even were that many 'nids on the hulk to start with? Then why send in the whole chapter? And if they knew, wouldn't a small elite force have a greater chance of completing the mission without waking the whole ship? Bad writing don't count as canon in my book. Same :rolleyes: with the whole grey knights story. The space hulk incident was one full company. The GK's didn't mindwipe BA. We didn't team up with necrons and part as friends. Anyone have any problems with my view of the world, they can talk to my crazed Dreadnought friends. :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 they didnt send in the whole chapter, they sent in a fair chunk of it to seize objectives etc. a space hulk is like really big and difficult to naviate, usually consists of several huge ships smashed together... then you have the fact that these are geane stealers which excell in these types of enviroment as its short corridors and the are absolute cc beasts and can cut through termy armour with little noticeable diference to scout armour. and they are in huge numbers. apparently the confirmed dead from this incident is over 12k... and they are apparently nearly impossible to detect because of a combination of dormancy, stealth, physic abilitys, and the ability to get to places that others cant... and they are one of the scourges of the imperium as they have been hunted ever since their discovery on ymergal and have been around ever since prettymuch everywhere in the galaxy. and they dont run out of ammo... they are the ammo. and theeres broodlords amongst them that mepheson struggled with... and they are smart, they didnt just attack the marines at their weakened points, they went for the resupplies, the non marines etc too. sure there was alot of stupidity on the leaders part but at the start everyone under estimated what nids could do. used to be the worst youd expect was a few nearly dead orks on a hulk... not so much anymore.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chris Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Probably the author is wrong (didn't know the size of a chapter or about Dante), but I prefer creative answers that fit in with the fluff rather than ignoring inconvenient aspects. Is it not possible that Dante was leading other members of the chapter on some sort of detached service (like with the DeathWatch or on a Demonworld from wence they came back mindwiped by the Grey Knights, or on some mission into the eye of terror which the galaxy is not yet ready to know? A less tactically astute Lieutenant might have been left in command, with a reduced size chapter, of which only 50 survived. This could then be replenished by the returnees when Dante's mission was finished. I would discount the scouts and Neophytes too, they aren't marines and seriously, on a space hulk? That would give another 100 to add to the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 And IF the whole chapter were to be united, how probable is it that they would all embark on a single space hulk? And IF they now did this very improbable thing, whats the odds that they would just continue to embark and assault after 200 marines laid dead? All of which would easily be explained if one of the Blood Angels Librarians had sensed the presence of a certain chapter artefact aboard the hulk (Calistarius only sensed it whilst on board, but he was only a Lexicanum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judaz Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Please enlighten me, I haven't read the story. What is this artifact, if it's worth 950 marines, it better be something great? Did they find Sanguinor chained to a altar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Buried deep within the hulk was the Wrath of Baal, a Blood Angels Battle Barge lost in the warp in M31 whilst carrying an ornate grail embedded with strange circuitry that still bore the psychic presence of Sanguinius' blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Wrong hulk. The artefact wasnt found till the 2nd Space Hulk, not the first one where all the marines died. Its also worht considering that the BA chapter at that time might have been slightly larger than codex standard - it is known to happen ocasionally. So if you were to take the '1000-marine myth' theory, and maybe add another 5-100 marines, then you could lose 950, and still have 3-400 surviving marines. Plenty enough to rebuild the chapter, but not so many that they wouldnt be traumatised as a group by the loss of so many brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 So the Blood Angels chapter died to save a cup? According to the space hulk fluff lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chris Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 It's that nice one Brother Corbulo carries around, though (before every member of the Sanguinary priesthood got a copy - they probably realised they had the STC to mass-produce it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 So the Blood Angels chapter died to save a cup? According to the space hulk fluff lol No. They didnt. They died on a different Hulk. And its not the same cup - since the BA's have had the Red Grail since the death of Sanguinius. It is another grail, but it isnt the Red Grail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 The Crimson Fists were 218 out of the chapter, if I remember Rynn's World correctl, so that doesn't support the 50=not doomed theory. I'd say it was fifty out of a large force of 4 or 5 companies, which doesn't kill you, but also adds drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 The Crimson Fists were reduced to "less than a company" in size after the events of the Rynn's World Incident (unless the novel changed that somehow - I haven't read it yet). After the Crusade of Righteous Liberation, which took place in the years immediately following the end of the Reign of Blood, the Chapter was reduced to 128 battle-brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamrodMC Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 In the new fluff, doesn't the amount of scouts not count towards the number of Marines in the Chapter? If so, then the BA scout company could have been several hundred. If the 50 that survived (stupidly low number, I admit) were the command cadre, along with some Apothecaries, then six hundred years seems alright in terms of building a Chapter back up, especially since the Scout companies are not limited to being only 100 Initiates, but could instead be more. Plus, in the BA novel Red Fury (poor examples to use, I admit as well), Dante asks for the BA successors to donate Marines to the Blood Angels. Maybe Seth wasn't keen on doing so because, possibly, Dante had asked this before and the successors had complied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 The Crimson Fists were definitely 218 according to Rynn's World. And don't worry, Brother Tyler, you aren't missing much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 you rboth right in your satements. you say reduced to two hundred ish in rynns world, and he said reduced futher in events after it... so by logic you are both correct... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judaz Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 you rboth right in your satements. you say reduced to two hundred ish in rynns world, and he said reduced futher in events after it... so by logic you are both correct... Don't try to apply logic to WH40k fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeren Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 You can see pretty much the entirety of what Pedro had at his disposal in the Planetstrike book. It was the force that made the harrowing march from the ruined Keep to New Rynn's City. It was definitely not a company worth of guys, and that was BEFORE the final assault. Granted, that doesn't match he supposed canon from the Space Marine Battles books, but, like everyone said before, when has that ever been an issue with GW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 you rboth right in your satements. you say reduced to two hundred ish in rynns world, and he said reduced futher in events after it... so by logic you are both correct... Don't try to apply logic to WH40k fluff. why? in this case its allowed to work. perople seem to think that 40k is set at a fixed time when its really a history of war with lotsw of grey areas and differing points of view etc... unlike some other bits of fluf the 2 different fiurs given here can work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 You can see pretty much the entirety of what Pedro had at his disposal in the Planetstrike book. It was the force that made the harrowing march from the ruined Keep to New Rynn's City. It was definitely not a company worth of guys, and that was BEFORE the final assault. Granted, that doesn't match he supposed canon from the Space Marine Battles books, but, like everyone said before, when has that ever been an issue with GW? You forget the people in the city itself. Pedro's force was a portion of the remaining fists, not the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 At Warhammer world, there's a storm bolter in the corridor before the gaming hall that was recovered from the hulk. It does mention the lost 950 brothers. Someone dun goofed. On a side note- want that bolter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 EDIT: Bloodfiends did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cain Tiberius Kondrad Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I have read The BA codecies since 3rd ed, as well as the old chapter approved articles in White Dwarf.. And also the Space Hulk book. I've not read any of the BL novels though (I hate reading) However. My personal feelings are that both the first and second Hulks are one and the same. Or there would be no reason to have the dead termy in the new Space Hulk.. Why would there be a dead Blood Angel on board if they hadn't boreded THIS hulk prior? One thing you do have to ask though. If some Goofball sent in the entiire chapter the first time, and only 50 survived (which I think is improbable), why oh why would any commander now believe they could accomplish any task with only a few squads of Terminators that couldn't be done with the entire chapter the first time? Also, someone mentioned about the grail(s). It was my understanding from the latest BA codex, that many grails were created after Sanguinius' death. And that many had been lost or destroyed. And that many of the BAs apothecaries had pieces of various grails incorperated into the equipment. So saying that a precsious grail was within the Hulk is entirely possible WITHOUT it being the Red Grail. Just my 2 cents... which is now $1.59 due to inflation. CTK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I have read The BA codecies since 3rd ed, as well as the old chapter approved articles in White Dwarf.. And also the Space Hulk book. I've not read any of the BL novels though (I hate reading) However. My personal feelings are that both the first and second Hulks are one and the same. Or there would be no reason to have the dead termy in the new Space Hulk.. Why would there be a dead Blood Angel on board if they hadn't boreded THIS hulk prior? That'd be because there was a Blood Angel vessel inside the second hulk - co-incidentally the only place the dead termie exists in the scenarios is in the room with the grail in, onboard the Blood Angels ship. Surely you will remember the bit where squad Lorenzo discovers the BA ship while they are moving through the hulk with Brother Calistarius? Bish-bash-bosh, another internet rumour quashed... One thing you do have to ask though. If some Goofball sent in the entiire chapter the first time, and only 50 survived (which I think is improbable), why oh why would any commander now believe they could accomplish any task with only a few squads of Terminators that couldn't be done with the entire chapter the first time? Different ship, different tactics - first time they tried to do it with bolters, but simply couldnt kill enough stealers before too may of them woke up. 2nd time, they decided to gas them, killing almost all of them at the same time, without triggering mass awakenings. So the threat was different. Also, someone mentioned about the grail(s). It was my understanding from the latest BA codex, that many grails were created after Sanguinius' death. And that many had been lost or destroyed. And that many of the BAs apothecaries had pieces of various grails incorperated into the equipment. So saying that a precsious grail was within the Hulk is entirely possible WITHOUT it being the Red Grail. Right on the money with this one though...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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