whats a good amount of scoring units to field?

[DarkGuard]

The army is fierce make no mistake, but what do you do when you need to use Tacticals to attack opponents? I can't imagine the attrition rate is favourable.

 

I pick my fights carefully, or pray to the Dice Gods to favour me! <_<.

 

No seriously, my Tactical squads aren't too bad in a fire fight. Again, it comes down to picking fights, and with the Rhino they tend to be able to pick their fights or are in support of one another or something else. And the combi-flamer, flamer and rapid firing boltguns are surprisingly effective. In a more competitive environment I'll often try and stick Vulkan in there, as with him my Tactical squads can wipe out entire squads of MEQ off of the table if rolls go their way. I know it seems like the Tacticals don't carry their weight, but whether it's rapid firing and flaming a squad, or using that multi-melta to set up a horrible zone of death for the enemy they're doing their job, and doing it well.

[gettothegone]

Libby w/ Null Zone and Avenger = 100pts

 

Standard

 

9 man Sternguard squad w/ 2x heavy flamers, 4x combi-meltas, power fist, Rhino = 330pts

 

Standard *I hate powerfists but that's me*

 

Rifleman Dread = 125pts

Rifleman Dread = 125pts

 

Dead Sexy

 

MM/HF Speeder = 70pts

MM/HF Speeder = 70pts

 

Dead Sexy

 

Vindicator w/ siege shield = 125pts

Vindicator w/ siege shield = 125pts

 

You had me at Rifleman Dreads, then we get here.... hate vindicators but another thread another time.

 

 

Tactical squad w/ combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta, Rhino = 215pts

10 man Tactical squad w/ combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta, Rhino = 215pts

TOTAL = 1500pts

 

See now here we go. In 1500 this works in my mind because you can combat squad and contest well while hiding behind an AV13 shieldwall. I can see parking a 5 man squad with the Multi Melta in some cover on an objective, and obscure them entirely with a Rhino. This gives them no shots on you. Also gives you 4 scoring units, and one "tankshock" type unit should you need it. A multi melta really does say "leave" to any tank who wants to party with this group. I guess you could obscure the rhinos with 10 inside with the Vindis bogarting the 4+ everywhere with proper deployment and only offering AV13 to shoot as well.

 

My only concern here is how do you work on multi objective games. You DO have 2 scoring units, and you need to take a MSU guy off say 3 others. How do you do that without engaging your own?

 

Do you have a typical deployment you use to protect and defend to start on first 2nd turn?

 

I understand picking targets, but what do you do for deployment and protection from 1st turn Alpha? Legit question. I play in a very leafblower / MSU heavy environment. I have my bike deployment down and when and when not to deploy, just wondering if you use this list constantly, if you have any rules of engagement when you play, and how those work for your 2 units.

[DarkGuard]

See now here we go. In 1500 this works in my mind because you can combat squad and contest well while hiding behind an AV13 shieldwall. I can see parking a 5 man squad with the Multi Melta in some cover on an objective, and obscure them entirely with a Rhino. This gives them no shots on you. Also gives you 4 scoring units, and one "tankshock" type unit should you need it. A multi melta really does say "leave" to any tank who wants to party with this group. I guess you could obscure the rhinos with 10 inside with the Vindis bogarting the 4+ everywhere with proper deployment and only offering AV13 to shoot as well.

 

My only concern here is how do you work on multi objective games. You DO have 2 scoring units, and you need to take a MSU guy off say 3 others. How do you do that without engaging your own?

 

Do you have a typical deployment you use to protect and defend to start on first 2nd turn?

 

I understand picking targets, but what do you do for deployment and protection from 1st turn Alpha? Legit question. I play in a very leafblower / MSU heavy environment. I have my bike deployment down and when and when not to deploy, just wondering if you use this list constantly, if you have any rules of engagement when you play, and how those work for your 2 units.

 

Thanks for giving me you honest opinion on how two 10 man Tactical squads can work. Please forgive me if I misunderstand some points or don't answer others, it's quite late.

 

As I've already said I'm not a fan of combat squadding. The results often end up with having weak squads that can't do much damage and die easy. Therefore, I pretty much only use 2 scoring units each game.

 

Now about multi-objective games. Sometimes they are 3, sometimes 4, sometimes 5. In 3 objective games it's not too bad. Objectives are normally outside of deployment zones, or are at least in the middle of the table due to restrictions. with luck I get the table edge with two objectives near it and park my units on top of those objectives. If not then I use one Tactical squad to defend while the other and Sternguard attack with the Vindicator and Speeders. Again, 4 objective games aren't as bad, as these turn into I start near two, you start near two, so a more aggressive 2 objective game. In this instance, just holding my two and contesting the other works, and I do have the firepower to blow units off of objectives and the units to contest.

 

5 objective games, on the other hand, are troublesome. Now first off, my opponent will not always have 3 from the beginning, but if he has more scoring units than me how do I cope? Well the answer is I use my often superior firepower (assuming my opponent has used more points on scoring units than really killy things), on his other scoring units. A scoring unit can't score if it's dead. I will pretty much always deploy objective in multi-objective games in the open. My Tactical squads have their Rhinos to hide behind, my opponents don't always have this luxury. Now by deploying mine in the open we've got 2-3 in the open at least. If I'm lucky I can also force my opponent to deploy on that side. However, regardless of roll for deployment, I will often ensure my objectives are in good areas for my Vindicators to cover. So my Vindicators will often be behind cover but still have a clear shot etc. These are very effective at taking out big units that are on objectives in the open. True they can miss, but when you have two one will hit.

 

Also remember that you don't need to get your opponent off his objectives, you need to get your guys on it, and stay alive. Last turn turbo-boosting of Speeders gives him no time to retaliate or makes them hard to kill due to cover saves and moving fast. Likewise tank shocking a Rhino or Vindicator can easily deprive an opponent of an objective. In short, if you play it right you don't need the third unit, although I'll certainly admit that it is very helpful.

 

Typical deployment? Depending on the deployment zones, enemy, nature of mission etc my Tactical Rhinos behind the Vindicator, Sternguard somewhere where it can fit. Or the Tactical Rhinos protecting Vindicator side armour. Speeders often deploy behind cover and zoom out or go in reserve. Rifleman again look for cover to protect from first turn shooting. How do I protect from alpha strikes? Fortunately, not many people use these sorts of tactics are my LGS. First turn shooting I've effectively covered. Drop Pods? The truth is I deploy in a tight formation, or sometime spread out, and hope they get a bad scatter. Often, that unit is dead next turn, so it's cross fingers and hope time. Short of putting everything in reserve you can't do much to protect from these, and I don't think it's tactically viable to put your entire army into reserve for one Drop Pod.

 

I'm afraid I've completely forgotten what Leafblower refers to, this is quite embarrassing.

 

As for constant usage, it's my default list. I've played about with other lists recently to try something different, like using my Captain or my Typhoons. And now I'm in the sticky situation of having to try and fit them in, the Typhoons are doing great and my Captain's model is my favourite. The only thing that's stopping my Captain getting in is points cost, lately my Libby's been awful, can't get a power off and can't Hood them either, but that's a discussion for another topic.

 

In short, in objective games I'll take mine, aim to wipe out my opponent's units or at least contest the other objectives, and I feel I've got the firepower and manpower to do this. Deployment in these instances look to protect my Tactical squads until I at least have the chance to move them and pop smoke. In Spearhead Sternguard are normally quite advanced, Tacticals to the side where their more deployed. Dawn of War is my favourite, as everything deploys off the board and moves on first turn. It's quite weird, because I am trying my hardest to explain how I use this list, but the answer is it's so varied and flexible depending on situation, and often tactics just come to me while playing. I find it harder to think of them when not at the board. I'm sorry if I quite haven't been able to answer your questions well enough, maybe in the morning I might be able to think more clearly about it.

[Captain Idaho]

Well the answer is I use my often superior firepower (assuming my opponent has used more points on scoring units than really killy things), on his other scoring units. A scoring unit can't score if it's dead. I will pretty much always deploy objective in multi-objective games in the open.

 

Well this is what I believe could be a problem. Many Codex books enable them to have scoring units which are really killy anyway like Chaos Marines, Space Wolves and Daemon armies, or have units cheap enough to get into the list without comprimising anything. Your firepower is very good but I would say the other Codex lists can get just as much firepower into a list.

 

Still, you are obviously having sucess so it doesn't really matter anyway. Hell, looking at your list, I would know I would have a real game on in my hands!

 

I still contend that having an extra scoring unit enables Tactical Marines to be used to the best of their potential. After all, when launching an assault with XXX units it pays to have a Tactical squad supporting them with a flamer or melta shot or rapid firing. A 3rd Tactical squad enables this flexibilty.

[greatcrusade08]

Im going to add a few cents in here (which is weird becuase i use pence)..

 

my own army has 5 scoring units, which if i were honest id admit that it was completely incidental becuase of my theme (an all scout army)

that has somewhat reduced the decision making on how my scoring troops are to be used, becuase i take many and becuase 80% of my army scores.

 

ive seen people rubbish tac squads and ill admit ive never been thier biggest fan, but every horse has its day.. its truelly one of those units that has to work as part of a co-ordinated organised game plan.. and lets face it 10 PA guys is still a hefty unit to kill off.

Idaho gets alot of use from his tacs becuase of the way his army works, in essence the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, i think realistically if your going to use tac marines you should have a general idea how you want your army to run first.

 

one of the more interesting builds ive seen is a tac squad in pod with MM, flamer and combi-flamer, when it comes down two flame templates and all those bolters really make a dent, and whats more they arent sat in the back of a big tin box for a turn or two..

each to thier own of course, but as i said have a general idea what you want from your core troops and go from there, remembering of course that 2 troops and 1 HQ are mandatory, so even though you may feel tac squads arent upto scratch, if they compliment the rest of your army you should take them.

 

i can give a few decent scout builds if anyopne wants to listen to my drivel, but again they only suit certain people, i know of guys who to this day think they arent worth squat.

[DarkGuard]

Well the answer is I use my often superior firepower (assuming my opponent has used more points on scoring units than really killy things), on his other scoring units. A scoring unit can't score if it's dead. I will pretty much always deploy objective in multi-objective games in the open.

 

Well this is what I believe could be a problem. Many Codex books enable them to have scoring units which are really killy anyway like Chaos Marines, Space Wolves and Daemon armies, or have units cheap enough to get into the list without comprimising anything. Your firepower is very good but I would say the other Codex lists can get just as much firepower into a list.

 

Still, you are obviously having sucess so it doesn't really matter anyway. Hell, looking at your list, I would know I would have a real game on in my hands!

 

I still contend that having an extra scoring unit enables Tactical Marines to be used to the best of their potential. After all, when launching an assault with XXX units it pays to have a Tactical squad supporting them with a flamer or melta shot or rapid firing. A 3rd Tactical squad enables this flexibilty.

 

I agree with you on pretty much everything you've said. Other Codices do have better troops, lovely killy troops that we don't have access to. Because of this I do find it hard to justify a third Tactical squad at this points level, these guys are meant to be supporting my army, not the other way around. It can become a hard game though when you have to contend with these lists. Fortunately, the local Chaos player insists in making an all foot list work, but there is still Blood Angels Razorspam and Vendetta spam to contend with, which have more scoring units than me in faster transports.

 

I also agree that the extra scoring unit can be useful, I just don't think that it's Tactical Marines at this points level. A small sniper squad of Scouts, on the other hand, will do the job nicely, as they are survivable in cover, can infiltrate onto objectives if need be, and don't cost much, allowing your Tacticals to go forward more.

 

EDIT: for comparative reasons here's a 3 Tactical squad list that I could be tempted to field at 1500pts.

 

Libby w/ Null Zone, Avenger =100pts

7 man Sternguard squad w/ heavy flamer, 3x combi-melta, power fist, Rhino w/dozer blade = 290pts (my earlier list also has a dozer blade, I just forgot to post it)

Rifleman Dread = 125pts

Rifleman Dread = 125pts

10 man Tactical squad w/ combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta, Rhino = 215pts

10 man Tactical squad w/ combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta, Rhino = 215pts

10 man Tactical squad w/ power fist, combi-melta, meltagun, plasma cannon, Rhino = 250pts

2x Land Speeder Typhoons = 180pts

TOTAL = 1500pts

 

So bigger model count, more scoring units, and unit I'd actually combat squad, letting the meltas and fist go forward and the plasma cannon stay at home. Certainly better at multi-objectives in terms of holding them, but the reason I don't field this is killing power. The MM/HF Speeders lost is mitigated somewhat by the double melta in the Tactical squad and the combi meltas in the Sternguard, not to mention I do have two static multi-meltas. My long-ranged anti-tank is boosted by Typhoons which can also kind of fill in the Vindicator's role of blasting units of off objectives. To be honest I was impressed with my Typhoons in a recent Doubles tournament, where they were easily my best unit, destroying nearly everything they looked at. However, I do sort of rely on those Vindicators for killing power and target saturation. No one likes a Vindicator and will shoot it. For the cost of that 3rd Tactical squad I can get two Vindicators, see my dilemma? Still, when I get back home I would be tempted to run this and see what it's like, I might be surprised. Of course, I'll need to check to see if I have the 4th Rhino...

[Mysticaria]

Just want to add a point here. When considering how many tactical squads to put in an army it doesn't matter how good tactical squads or bolters are compared to units in other armies. They might compare favorably to other armies basic troops, and that can be used on the table to your advantage, but when you are building an army you need to compare how good tactical squads are to the other units you could be taking instead.

 

There are many more cost effective units in the C:SM book than tactical squads (rifleman, typhoons, MM/HF speeders, vindis, preds, stern, etc...). The one strength that none of those units have, however, is that they aren't scoring. If you can build an army that can operate effectively with 2 tactical squads, and can afford to use the other points on attack units (like Darkguard's mech example) there is no reason to take a 3rd tactical squad. If your army is depending on guys with bolters to win, then I suppose you could take some extra tactical squads.

 

Again, the "Two tactical squads period" theory relies on the fact that every objective game requires only one claimed objective. To claim one objective requires minimum of one scoring troop alive at the end of the game. Then its just a matter of doing one of these three things: 1 - leave no enemy troops on any objective. 2- contest any enemy held objectives. 3- destroy all enemy troops. If you plan to maximize units able to accomplish these three goals (typically tactical squads are not the most cost effective units for this task) then you need to limit points spent on claiming your one objective.

 

This theory not only limits the points spent on tactical squads leaving more points for offense, it actually takes advantage of the greatest strength of tactical squads which is their resiliency and toughness. They have ATSKNF, so they can auto-rally even with one guy. They have combat squads, so two units can create up to four squads making it harder to clear them with shooting. They can take rhinos, which wost-case scenario are going to screen the tactical squads from one round of fire, best-case scenario it's going to get obscured saves from other vehicles, its going to provide movement, and its going to provide cover once its a wreck, and don't forget in dawn of war the rhino can deploy with searchlights so all your long-range stuff can fire on turn one. Finally, the tactical squads have deployment options and can even sit in reserve if they seem too fragile for a matchup. When they roll on turn 2 or 3 and smoke they should be plenty tough since all your meaty stuff has been blasting for 3 turns. Yeah, this theory doesn't rely on tactical squads to get up close and personal, but that's because it limits points spent on tacs to try and afford stuff that is more purpose designed for that role.

 

-Myst

[Captain Idaho]

The problem I have with that method is you are using a minimum of 410pts (2 Tacticals in Rhinos) to do nothing but objective grab. If you take a 3rd Tactical squad you can afford to use them to attack/support an attack etc due to an increase in numbers allowing for some redundancy. You can essentially use those 410pts, even if keeping a squad holding back.

 

I'd rather have 3 squads of slightly underpowered for cost Troops choices that I get full use out of than 2 of those same squads doing nothing. Marines are too expensive to have units doing nothing.

[Grizzly_bear]

I've just clocked this thread....so here's my input (if i may)

 

I've ran 2 tact squads with flamer each no heavy weapon and a rhino each

 

with 1 CC scout squads

 

& a sniper scout squad......

 

along with a full man deve squad, Combat squaded (1LC, 1ML, 2 PC)

 

& an assault squad, combat squaded once they entered play

 

this little combo was used on an Objective game and it worked BRILLIANTLY.....

 

the sniper and CC scout both infiltrated near an objective and caused my oppenent to force some of his units back.....this is where it fell apart for my enemy.....LUCKILY the snipers picked off a few and the CC scouts was able to wipe out the rest of the unit....so straight away by the end of turn one i was holding 2 objectives...one in my deploment area and one in the enemies....2nd turn came and the tact squads rushed up to the middle line objective.....then assault squad came down fine and dandy thanks to the dice gods......landed near on perfect, and was able to cause massive hassle behind the enemy line in the middle...and whilst all this the deve squads were raining fire and taking out loads.

 

THUMBS UP....so i would 4 scouring units help my freind.

[DarkGuard]

I understand what your saying Captain Idaho, and ideally I'd love to use Tactical squads as the main focal point of my attack, but I can't. Compared to other units like Vindicators they just don't have the power to wipe units off the board in one round shooting. Myst makes a good point when he says that the 3rd Tactical squad can be detrimental to the killing power of a list as you're tying up another 200ish points on a substandard unit. Those points could go to something else. But again, both you and him make a good point in that if you want to use bolters as your main killing unit then you need that 3rd unit.

 

To be honest, it seems the whole thread is revolving around using another Tactical squad to get the best out of the other Tactical squads, but there doesn't seem to be much emphasis on that small Scout squad being able to do the same. Similar to Dorns_Fist's example, a small Scout sniper squad can let you go all offensive with your Tactical squads, and with combat squads you can have up to 5 scoring units if you wish.

[greatcrusade08]

this little combo was used on an Objective game and it worked BRILLIANTLY.....

 

the sniper and CC scout both infiltrated near an objective and caused my oppenent to force some of his units back.....this is where it fell apart for my enemy.....LUCKILY the snipers picked off a few and the CC scouts was able to wipe out the rest of the unit....so straight away by the end of turn one i was holding 2 objectives...

 

just out of curiosity are you using shrike as your HQ?

[Mysticaria]

I understand what your saying Captain Idaho, and ideally I'd love to use Tactical squads as the main focal point of my attack, but I can't. Compared to other units like Vindicators they just don't have the power to wipe units off the board in one round shooting. Myst makes a good point when he says that the 3rd Tactical squad can be detrimental to the killing power of a list as you're tying up another 200ish points on a substandard unit. Those points could go to something else. But again, both you and him make a good point in that if you want to use bolters as your main killing unit then you need that 3rd unit.

 

To be honest, it seems the whole thread is revolving around using another Tactical squad to get the best out of the other Tactical squads, but there doesn't seem to be much emphasis on that small Scout squad being able to do the same. Similar to Dorns_Fist's example, a small Scout sniper squad can let you go all offensive with your Tactical squads, and with combat squads you can have up to 5 scoring units if you wish.

Interesting idea here. Once I start to consider scout squads as objective holders it leads me to want to limit points even more so I start looking at replacing the other two tacts with stern/scouts... but what if you kept them in an just took a small scout squad with only purpose being to claim a home objective? Would they be resilient enough with 2+ cover save, vehicle line of sight games, reserve options, etc...? It would allow the rest of your force including the 2 tactical squads to go rushing forward. I've had lots of games where the only objective I've held is the enemy one, games where my army rushes forward and pushes them off an objective, but my home objective holder gets hit by a deepstriker, outflanker, etc... This might happen a lot in such an army where 90% is heading forward all game.

 

Honestly, I've used the 2 tacts plus LSS in my army recently and I have to admit that when I could not get the alpha melta strike, I used them as outflankers and they tended to just stay as safe as possible for objective grabbing. It's 150 points or so, but allows some more freedom with the rest of the army (and I do understand people like 3rd tactical squad for just this reason). I imagine a 75-point unit would be ok, but they would really only be able to claim objectives. Is the resiliency enough to survive comfortably? Even though tacs are weaker than other options, they can still kill stuff and win some combats...are the scouts going to be a liability for not being able to really impact the game other than scoring? Are they too much of a liability in kill point games? The thing I like about tactical squads is they have such resiliency that they hardly ever die in kill point games. Thoughts?

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

Interesting idea here. Once I start to consider scout squads as objective holders it leads me to want to limit points even more so I start looking at replacing the other two tacts with stern/scouts... but what if you kept them in an just took a small scout squad with only purpose being to claim a home objective? Would they be resilient enough with 2+ cover save, vehicle line of sight games, reserve options, etc...? It would allow the rest of your force including the 2 tactical squads to go rushing forward. I've had lots of games where the only objective I've held is the enemy one, games where my army rushes forward and pushes them off an objective, but my home objective holder gets hit by a deepstriker, outflanker, etc... This might happen a lot in such an army where 90% is heading forward all game.

 

Honestly, I've used the 2 tacts plus LSS in my army recently and I have to admit that when I could not get the alpha melta strike, I used them as outflankers and they tended to just stay as safe as possible for objective grabbing. It's 150 points or so, but allows some more freedom with the rest of the army (and I do understand people like 3rd tactical squad for just this reason). I imagine a 75-point unit would be ok, but they would really only be able to claim objectives. Is the resiliency enough to survive comfortably? Even though tacs are weaker than other options, they can still kill stuff and win some combats...are the scouts going to be a liability for not being able to really impact the game other than scoring? Are they too much of a liability in kill point games? The thing I like about tactical squads is they have such resiliency that they hardly ever die in kill point games. Thoughts?

 

-Myst

 

For the relatively small price of 100pts you have a very resilient unit, one that sits in cover on your objective. It may get shot at early on, especially if the rest of your force is mechanised. However, when your other forces are out and killing things those 3 Scouts aren't as threatening and won't get shot at as much. The very fact that your opponent won't have the firepower and ability to deal with them when everything else in your army is attacking him will only frustrate him and may cause him to make mistakes.

 

As for killing potential, no it's not that great, especially when compared to a small Scout squad in an LSS. However, it isn't meant to be killing, just holding objectives. In all games it allows your Tactical squads to go forward and hunt other objectives, a Scout squad in an LSS can't do this as it is my nature one of the units pushing forward. Therefore, a small sniper squad can be good purely because it lets you use your Tactical squads in a more offensive manner during objective games.

[Grizzly_bear]

this little combo was used on an Objective game and it worked BRILLIANTLY.....

 

the sniper and CC scout both infiltrated near an objective and caused my oppenent to force some of his units back.....this is where it fell apart for my enemy.....LUCKILY the snipers picked off a few and the CC scouts was able to wipe out the rest of the unit....so straight away by the end of turn one i was holding 2 objectives...

 

just out of curiosity are you using shrike as your HQ?

 

No, no shutout brother, just a normal captain with PP and power sword. He stayed with the tacts.

[greatcrusade08]

this little combo was used on an Objective game and it worked BRILLIANTLY.....

 

the sniper and CC scout both infiltrated near an objective and caused my oppenent to force some of his units back.....this is where it fell apart for my enemy.....LUCKILY the snipers picked off a few and the CC scouts was able to wipe out the rest of the unit....so straight away by the end of turn one i was holding 2 objectives...

 

just out of curiosity are you using shrike as your HQ?

 

No, no shutout brother, just a normal captain with PP and power sword. He stayed with the tacts.

 

i was just wondering how your assault scouts managed to assault turn one?

[Grizzly_bear]

Because I moved them out of cover....shot with pistols and then assaulted....it was a gamble but it was due to my oppenant bringing some one of his units back to deal the scouts but they held their own.

[greatcrusade08]

Because I moved them out of cover....shot with pistols and then assaulted....it was a gamble but it was due to my oppenant bringing some one of his units back to deal the scouts but they held their own.

 

did you get first turn?

[Grizzly_bear]

No he did brother. But he wasn't able to kill any scouts through shooting and didn't make the assault charge.

[greatcrusade08]

No he did brother. But he wasn't able to kill any scouts through shooting and didn't make the assault charge.

 

ah, i see..

sorry for all the questions, my brain was hurting and it wouldnt let me go on without straightening it out ;)

 

assault scouts on the charge are wonderful arent they? they fact they score is another bonus on their big list, they are offensively identical to assault marines at a much lower price

[Grizzly_bear]

No he did brother. But he wasn't able to kill any scouts through shooting and didn't make the assault charge.

 

ah, i see..

sorry for all the questions, my brain was hurting and it wouldnt let me go on without straightening it out :)

 

assault scouts on the charge are wonderful arent they? they fact they score is another bonus on their big list, they are offensively identical to assault marines at a much lower price

 

 

The interrogation was fine brother lol

 

Yes they are good....I wouldn't say great, but very good....I still would choose assault marines at times over scouts due to the flamer and 12" option you know?

 

But I did have a scout sgt hold his own against 30ork boys taking 10 of their number before dying lol

[Ryjak]

I am nothing close to an expert on this, but I thought it was a good thread, and worth keeping up.

 

Ultimately, C:SM has three Troop choices: Tacs, Scouts, and Bikes. In a normal game, you MUST field at least two units. What you pick should depend on what else you have in your army. Some armies NEED three full-sized Tactical Squads, some can work with a 5-man Tactical Squad and/or a 5-man Scout Squad. The real trick is figuring out what the army as a whole needs. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone has ever tried to look at it this way, and I'm sure my attempt will fail horribly, but if it generates discussion, I'm happy.

 

From this and other topics, here's a brief analysis of popular Troop selections, and what they do for you.

 

Scoring: First, I suggest you IGNORE that these units are Scoring, so you can concentrate on what they can actually DO... especially because a Scoring Unit's position only matters at the end of the game. However...

 

Camping vs. Claiming: Often, when it comes to Scoring Units, they have two uses. Camping Objectives, or Claiming Objectives. A Camping unit starting on an objective will get more firepower directed at it than one that isn't, which I feel is important. Further, you don't need to Camp with a scoring unit. Many non-scoring units are better Campers, and make it VERY hard for your opponent to claim. Sometimes, it's ok to "give up" that initial point to concentrate on Claiming objectives. This mostly depends on how the entire army is designed. Some armies Camp, some Claim... many try to do both. Perhaps they shouldn't.

 

And if you take a unit for Objective Claiming, keep in mind they don't have to be in Scoring position until late game. Until then, they can pretend to Camp, help the army kill stuff, or even hide in Reserves.

 

Drop pods: Because of how Drop Pods work, you should be using them for delayed Camping with the Troops inside. Imagine if you couldn't control when or where your Pods arrived at all, and you should understand why I say this. Having that control just makes them useful.

 

Meltaguns: I'm going to address meltaguns now, since every Troop unit can field one. Adding a meltagun to your Troop unit gives it a very potent anti-tank weapon. Using your Troop choices to bring extra anti-tank is a good option, but the army shouldn't be dependant on your Troops for anti-tank. If you go this route, the unit becomes a Claiming unit, because you're going to push forward to get in melta range, and should get a transport. Basically, if you feel you're slightly deficent in anti-tank, this a good way to get it.

 

Scout Snipers: A Sniper Squad isn't really going to kill anything, even light infantry, but that's not what you're looking for. You're trying to get ONE kill to force a pinning check. Too bad just about everyone is effectively Fearless, which greatly limits their offense. Sure, you can plus up with a Missile Launcher and Telion, or shoot a high-Toughness unit, but there are better ways to get the same capability. So ultimately, Sniper Squads have one job: Objective Camping. If your army needs a Camper, this is a good option. Perhaps one of the best.

 

Assault Scouts: With bolt pistols or shotguns, Assault Scouts are pretty capable against light infantry. This can be greatly enhanced with a combi-flamer and/or a powerfist. With their Scout Move, they can also start causing damage Turn 1. This capablity is further enhanced with a Land Speeder Storm. This is a good option if you want to cause damage early, and force your opponent to start re-acting immediately. Tricky though, because of their fragility. Last, Assault Scouts are best as a Cleaner, assisting another unit. They pair very well with Terminators or Sternguard.

 

5-man Tactical Squad: Whether it's a bare-bones 5-man Squad, or Combat Squads with cheap weapons doesn't really matter. 5 Tactical Marines aren't very survivable or offensive, even against light infantry. So, they're a Camper, dependant on whatever extra equipment you can give them. A flamer or combi-flamer is always a good option, since it pairs well with bolters. Powerweapons for the Sergeant are probably wasted though, since the unit doesn't like HtH at all, and usually won't live long enough for the power weapon/fist to make an appreciable impact. This is a good unit to put with a Razorback, since Razorbacks generally like to Camp anyway. A 5-man Squad in a Heavy Bolter Razorback, armed with a flamer and combi-flamer, though, is decent Hunting infantry and as an Objective Claimer.

 

Any Heavy Weapon also works well with the 5-man Tac Squad, because the squad becomes a multi-wound heavy weapon. A very good Camping unit... pairs well with a Rhino, or a camping Razorback.

 

You could attach an HQ to this unit, but there are much better homes in your army, right?

 

10-man Tactical Squad: With more options than you can shake a stick at, no wonder people have a hard time figuring out what to do with it... especially since a Tactical squad is ultimately limited in what it can do. The most important thing is to remember most have bolters, an anti-infantry weapon that really needs to be within 12" to be effective. This can be augmented nicely with a flamer or combi-flamer. So job #1 is Cleaning infantry, which is much easier to do if you use a Rhino. They should be used for Objective Claiming, since you should be pushing forward to get close to your target.

 

Further, a full-sized squad in HtH combat is pretty weak, but a powerfist makes them reasonably effective, simply because it is hard to remove that powerfist with 10 wounds protecting it. The unit may not need the HtH punch, though, depending on your army.

 

In many ways, any Heavy Weapon doesn't really pair well with the 10-man Tactical Squad. This squad (with or without a Rhino) is really weak compared to other Fire Support options, like Razorbacks, Predators, Typhoons, Devestators, and Rifle-dreds. However, any weapon is so cheap there's no reason to NOT take one. I do suggest playing without the Heavy Weapon for a few games and see which weapon you wish you had. Or, just take a Missile Launcher or Multi-melta and call it good. The Heavy Bolter might be free, but the other weapons give this unit's already limited offense some necessary omph.

 

Troop Bikes: Sure, you need a Bike Captain first, but since a Captain on a bike with a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, and Hellfire Rounds is so effective anyway, I don't see much of a problem. So, with that out of the way...

 

First, I don't think the overall unit size matters, since you're not going to Camp with Bikes anyway. They start as a good anti-infantry unit, and unlike Tacs, are fairly effective at 24" range, because their accuracy enhances offense, and inherent mobility should be used to limit retalitory fire. Ideally, they shouldn't close to Rapid Fire range unless you're VERY confident they'll completely kill their target before their next turn. Bikes are like sharks; if they stop moving, they die.

 

Meltaguns pair very well with this unit, as do flamers. The Sergeant could get a powerfist when the unit is 8+ models, and plan to play aggressively, or attach your Bike Captain. If you're looking for a HtH Bike unit though, go with the Command Squad, so you can get multiple power weapons and storm shields. In fact, if the army has a lot of armor, the Bike Command Squad might be the best way to go.

 

I spent way more time on this than I expected, and feel like I haven't really added anything new, but hopefully this is a fresh perspective on the Space Marine Troop Choices and their uses. I suppose it would be better if I generalized the kind of armies you tend to see, and if they need Campers or Claimers, but I don't know enough to write about that. :)

[DarkGuard]

That's a very good summary there Ryjak, thanks for taking the time to write that. I pretty much agree with everything you've said. Best campers are normally Scout snipers until the heavy flamers are brought out, while 5 man Tact squads with heavy weapons can make good claimers. Meanwhile, your 10 man units in Rhinos, combat Scouts and bikers should be focussing on claiming.

 

Just a couple of points, I think plasma guns and multi-meltas match perfectly to small biker squads. Their mobility allows them to stay at 24" and fire to full effect, not bad.

 

Furthermore, for 5 man Tactical squads in Razorbacks, I'd suggest that las/plas is better than heavy bolters due to range and greater utility. You've got a combi-flamer if you need to get rid of a horde nearby. Either that or go assault cannon, but then you have to claim.

 

Finally, there is of course a 4th scoring unit, the Sternguard squads. Now while not a Troops unit, it can influence what you take as Troops. If you're taking 2 or 3 10 man Sternguard squads you'll only need a couple of 5 man Scout snipers in Troops. So taking Pedro and Sternguard can also effect what you're taking as Troops.

 

Again, well done with that, thanks for taking the time :whistling:.

[Ryjak]

Thank you, DarkGuard. That means a lot from you, especially since I feel like I don't know how to play Space Marines anymore.

 

In general, Razorbacks support Campers, because they have long-range weapons, and benifit from finding a hull-down position. Heavy Bolter Razorbacks are ok in a Claiming roll, simply because they're cheap. Once the squad inside deploys, their main job is to provide mobile cover, and hopefully blast some infantry too. The Assault Cannon Razorback maneuvers the same way as a Claimer, but is much more expensive to use as a throw-away transport.

 

Perhaps the best use for the AssCan Razor is as a seperate Claimer paired with a Camping Tac Squad. Heck, it doesn't even need a squad inside to count as Scoring, right? But if you're doing that, you'll be using it with a Combat-squadded Tac anyway. 10 Marines Camping doesn't make much sense.

 

Remember, the point is to help people select the proper Troop choices for their army. In theory, it should be pretty obvious that if you're taking Pedro and Sternguard, you won't need Objective Claimers, so you should focus on Campers instead for your Troop slots. The trick is figuring out which Campers to use.

 

To make it a bit easier, I put together this list:

 

Campers

Sniper Scouts

5-man Tac Squads (Default upgraded Razorback, Rhino OK with squad Heavy Weapon)

 

Claimers

Assault Scouts (Ideally with a LSS)

5-man Tac with melta or dual-flamer (default Rhino, HB Razor OK)

10-man Tac with Rhino (Heavy Weapon optional)

Bikes as Troops (Attack Bike optional)

 

In general, I find plasmaguns a lackluster option now. It's good for a Camper Tac and Bikes, but that's about it. It's point cost and competition pretty much kill it, 'Get's Hot' is just too much. Maybe if it ignored cover, or invulnerable saves, it would be viable again, but...

[Mysticaria]

In general, I find plasmaguns a lackluster option now. It's good for a Camper Tac and Bikes, but that's about it. It's point cost and competition pretty much kill it, 'Get's Hot' is just too much. Maybe if it ignored cover, or invulnerable saves, it would be viable again, but...

 

ahh... blasphemy. Seriously though, plasmaguns still have a place I think in the right squad. A tactical squad with multimelta, plasmagun, combiplasma and rhino can dish out a lot of firepower in one key turn. That's a lot of kick from a tactical squad which normally only excels are being resilient. The plasmagun and multimelta are good range matches (both are good at 24" and better at 12") and open the squad up to really be able to take on all targets. They can be effective on vehicles, MCs, light infantry, heavy infantry. I find this a really good weapon load-out for a mid-field squad.

 

I like how you've split up your roles for scoring units, but what about controlling space? A squad that wants to get some room from the deployment zone and then control space, supporting the army. Is this a claimer unit?

 

-Myst

[nurglephill]

Aha!

 

I have been reading this thread with great interest but I have had nothing to add apart from the 'thanks for the help' kinda post, which while valid isn't very helpful or additional. But plasma guns, now those I can add to a discussion about I think.

The FEW games of 40k I have played in this dex have been with my beloved Death Guard, and in my beloved Death Guard my favourite unit is a squad of 7 plague marines with 2 plasma guns. Now I know and I have had explained to me that 'technically' the best use of a plague marine is in assault with assault weapons and then charging (mathhammer they call it...witch craft I call it >_> ) but this lil unit of 191pts has, in every battle, killed way more than its worth. The thing about plague marines though is 'feel no pain'. To run plasma on expensive ONE wound models is crazy for my money but that extra save makes all the difference and it makes the gun worth taking. Ah I remember rapid firing into terminator squads and slowly falling back through cover until nothing was left. FUN.

 

But I would not risk it without FNP, so in a command squad with an apothecary I would say it would be an awesome gun to take 4 of! In my Death guard plasma is exclusively for plague marines and no other unit.

 

Oh, and really...thanks a lot for all your posts they have been really helpful :lol: