Index Astartes: Sanguinary Phalanx

[exetus]

NightrawenII: I included that, because you said I should read the Codex and I admit that what it says there is that, "OMG they are all dying slow deaths if they weren't purged". Now that I have read the codex (as evidenced by my typing it into a post), I would ask that you read what I posted from the two Imperial Armour books (it would be better if you got your hands on both and read all three chapter profiles they provide, they are informative, interesting and illuminating). They both occur after the codex and are Games-Workshop products and thus represent a slight retconning of information. It is CLEARLY OBVIOUS from the three examples that I gave, that not ALL of the chapters were actually experimented upon and at least two of the ones who were did NOT degenerate into abominations. Neither did they have problems reconstituting themselves. In fact, the Lamenters successfully replenished their losses following one of the Black Crusades and were OVER Codex strength at the time of the Badab conflict.

 

My specific point is that an absolute has now been rendered NON-absolute by later fluff which happens all of the time in 40k. A good example of this is the Squats who no longer exist and the Tyranids and their subspecies that have had an incredible evolution (genestealers from Ymgarl, etc.). Until the Horus Heresy books, it was understood that only 3 or so Space Marines had escaped the massacre at Istvaan V, but according to the fluff of Raven's Flight, Corax bugs out with close to 3,000 Raven Guard, alone. So, with the follow-ups in the IA books, it would seem to be reasonable to imply that the expounded upon facts overshadow the generalized facts.

 

 

RHeru Talon: Thanks for your feedback and for providing something other than just a, "no, this is dumb," comment and providing a possible "solution." My only problem with them being 20th Founding is that the "success" of the Lamenters was the reason they were also experimented upon. Would you then suggest that the experiment upon the Lamenters was because of the apparent success of my Chapter instead? I guess I'm still searching for reasons as to why they wouldn't have manifested the Rage/Thirst until later as I specifically want it to be something of catastrophic import and a deep sense of shame within the Chapter that is current and not "old hat" like it is with the rest of the Blood Angels successors.

[Riconas]

I think there might have been some miscommunication here; while the Founding itself would certainly be considered an epic failure by most, due to the physical mutations and inclination towards heresy that many of the Chapters showed, I think the point the OP was trying to make is that the Founding wasn't a complete failure. The Lamenters are the best proof of this. The Minotaurs (and other Chapters less affected by the tampering) can also be considered proof of this, as they were considered a successful Chapter, at least to a point.

 

So, basically, while the 21st Founding might well have been an epic failure, it was only so due to the spontaneous mutations which made it difficult for many Chapters to grow; at the same time, however, this was only a part of why the 21st Founding came to be known as the Cursed Founding, since many of the Chapters were either decimated or disappeared completely due to, for lack of a better term, bad luck.

 

I don't believe the OP meant to say that the Founding wasn't an epic failure, per se, only that it wasn't a complete failure, nor was the genetic modification the only reason it's referred to as the Cursed Founding.

 

And, as I stated elsewhere in this thread, we have to remember that, had it not been for Fabius Bile being alerted, it's possible the Founding wouldn't have been stopped so abruptly, which could have possibly resulted in many of the so-called idiosyncrasies being worked out by the end of the Founding. We will never truly know what might have been.

 

Hope that helps to straighten things out. :)

 

Also, exetus, I think it works fine being a 21st Founding Chapter; you just have to work out the details as to how and why it would happen. Myself, I decided to use the massacre of the Blood Angels on Mackan during the Ghost War as the reason for creating another Successor, and fleshed it out a bit, combined with the seemingly-successful creation of the Lamenters as a reason for using the gene-seed, because (if I've got my timelines straight) at the point of the 22nd Founding, the Flaw had not yet presented itself in the Lamenters (it's kind of hard to nail that event down time-wise), making it seem as though they had managed to cure it (which of course they didn't, they only delayed it).

[Heru]

And, as I stated elsewhere in this thread, we have to remember that, had it not been for Fabius Bile being alerted, it's possible the Founding wouldn't have been stopped so abruptly, which could have possibly resulted in many of the so-called idiosyncrasies being worked out by the end of the Founding. We will never truly know what might have been.

It wasn't the Founding that was stopped abruptly it was project Homo Sapiens Novus (aka build a Primarchlite) which was tagged onto the 21st Founding. The Founding itself and its individual experiments ran its course.

[Riconas]

It wasn't the Founding that was stopped abruptly it was project Homo Sapiens Novus (aka build a Primarchlite) which was tagged onto the 21st Founding. The Founding itself and its individual experiments ran its course.

 

Really? I've never read that anywhere; what's the source? The only thing I've ever read about the 21st Founding was in this article on Lexicanum.com; here's an exceprt:

 

The Founding itself ended when one of its projects sent a warp signal and alerted Fabius Bile to its existence.

 

Granted, it's rather vague, but it seems to indicate that, once Bile found out about it, the whole thing ended, either immediately or when Bile showed up.

 

If you have a link to your source, I'd love to read it; I'm always looking for more lore to read. :blush:

[NightrawenII]

NightrawenII: I included that, because you said I should read the Codex and I admit that what it says there is that, "OMG they are all dying slow deaths if they weren't purged". Now that I have read the codex (as evidenced by my typing it into a post), I would ask that you read what I posted from the two Imperial Armour books (it would be better if you got your hands on both and read all three chapter profiles they provide, they are informative, interesting and illuminating). They both occur after the codex and are Games-Workshop products and thus represent a slight retconning of information. It is CLEARLY OBVIOUS from the three examples that I gave, that not ALL of the chapters were actually experimented upon and at least two of the ones who were did NOT degenerate into abominations. Neither did they have problems reconstituting themselves. In fact, the Lamenters successfully replenished their losses following one of the Black Crusades and were OVER Codex strength at the time of the Badab conflict.

 

My specific point is that an absolute has now been rendered NON-absolute by later fluff which happens all of the time in 40k. A good example of this is the Squats who no longer exist and the Tyranids and their subspecies that have had an incredible evolution (genestealers from Ymgarl, etc.). Until the Horus Heresy books, it was understood that only 3 or so Space Marines had escaped the massacre at Istvaan V, but according to the fluff of Raven's Flight, Corax bugs out with close to 3,000 Raven Guard, alone. So, with the follow-ups in the IA books, it would seem to be reasonable to imply that the expounded upon facts overshadow the generalized facts.

*facepalm*

Epic =/= Complete.

Second, using three Chapters as the proof that the Cursed Founding wasn't failure and disaster is logical fallacy. 3 Chapters out of x>40 is 'exception proves the rule'.

 

Riconas, see your PM.

[exetus]

Fair enough, epic=/= complete, although I thought that we were both arguing along those lines. If you weren't, then I apologize.

 

...proof that the Cursed Founding wasn't failure and disaster...

...but this makes it seem like you're still saying that the entire Founding was a failure. First of all, not ALL of the Chapters were experimented with. So "x>40" is true, but not necessarily a true number for those tampered with. In addition, some of them just had plain bad luck. We don't know the number here, but it could be 1 or 15 or 35.

 

Logic.

 

When I run an experiment, I have at least one control and then I have a hypothesis that I plan to test out. In this case, the hypothesis is, "altering the gene-seed of the Adeptus Astartes will create superior specimens to the original gene-seed." I then conduct my experiment. In my experiment, I keep 5-10 controls specimens that we know (or are pretty damn sure) are going to turn out just fine. Next we have Case #1 and we're messing with the Ossmodula. Case #2 we'll mess with the Catalepsean Node. #3 will have a modified Mucranoid. #4 will try to erase "the Flaw" from Blood Angels gene-seed. #5 will try to revive the Betcher's Gland for the Imperial Fists. #6 will alter color perception so that the Ultramarines see the color blue as pink and vice versa. Etc. So I have 30-35 Chapters that I have messed with. When the experiment ends, these are the results.

Case 1 - Success??? - Ehhh... they have hese bony blade growths... I don't like it, but hey, they look kinda cool.

Case 2 - Fail - Subjects not only can go without sleep, they simply cannot without the use of Ambien, once administered in high enough doses, their kidneys decide to take a vacation

Case 3 - Fail - Skin turned to glue and the Marines all got stuck together when attempting a group high-5

Case 4 - Success - They're totally "emo" but they aren't bloodthirsty lunatics

Case 5 - Success - It worked, but they all speak with funny accents now

Case 6 - Success but later lost while attempting to go vacationing on the Eastern Fringe, much to the relief of the Ultramarines

Case 7 - Fail - Holy #*&$!!! They just burst into flames!!!

Case 8 - Fail - They have a deep-seeded and unshakable belief that they are from New Jersey

So on and so forth.

 

By logical reasoning, if 26 fail and only 4 succeed, those four can be considered a success.

Magos Biologis: "We never EVER try any of the other 26 experiments again, especially not whatever we did to #8, but look; the Lamenters are cured and the Imperial Facepalms can spit acid again! Dude!"

Genetor 1: "Whoa... we really effed up on those other guys though! Well, the Flame Falcons are handy if you need a light"

Genetor 2: "But that's what the Grey Knights are for!"

Magos Biologis: "Well, it was a 16% success rate. Let's do it again with just those 4 to see if it works again! I'm sooooo getting an Imperium Peace Prize this year!"

 

What is illogical is:

Magos Biologis: "Dude, we had an 83% failure rate!"

Genetor 1: "What about the 16% that was good? We shouldn't stop everything because we experimented and failed on SOME of them! What if we had succeeded with half?!?! Or even 90%?"

Genetor 2: "Screw that! It's all or nothing! I got your back, boss!"

Magos Biologis: "Thanks 2. Now please go take 1 to get lobotomized into a servitor, can't have someone around who doesn't think that 99% isn't failure! We only deal in absolutes here!"

[NightrawenII]

Maybe, but such great rate of failure is too close to gamble. Really, it is sign that in fact you have no idea of what are you doing. You are just trying out ideas without much knowledge of the subject. All of your success could be attributed to blind luck.

 

Another thing to consider is the acceptance of your patrons. If your "experiments" don't yield the results, then your research will be ceased. The Imperium cannot afford to lose the Chapters, because someone was playing with the gene-seed.

 

Third, these experiments aren't experiments per se, but the fruits of your work and your research and the result is rather meh, if you ask me.

 

Yes, the Lamenters are success, but in context of overall results, the outcome of tampering with gene-seed was huge mistake.

[Arkangilos]

Sorry, Nightrawen, but I don't think you know what YOU are talking about on this one. He has brought out point after point against you, and you have not done the same with hard evidence.

[Riconas]

Well, I personally don't consider epic = complete; to me, complete implies 100%, and 100% failure means that there was 0% success; however, you yourself even concede that there was some (albeit very little) success:

 

Yes, the Lamenters are success, but in context of overall results, the outcome of tampering with gene-seed was huge mistake.

 

True, in the "big picture", it was generally an overall failure. But that doesn't mean the entire project was a complete failure; just that enough of it was a failure for the whole thing to be considered a failure.

 

That's all I was trying to point out.

 

As for the link in PM, that doesn't appear to be official GW canon, which means it was thought up by someone in the community, which in turn means that it shouldn't be relied upon for important details. Not saying it isn't well-done, just that what is contained within didn't necessarily happen within the 40K universe, at least as far as official events are concerned. Even if it had, I saw nothing there that states explicitly that the 21st Founding continued uninterrupted after Fabius Bile was notified; in fact, I don't think there's even really mention anywhere as to when Bile was actually notified, and according to that link, the complex where these experiments were taking place had been sitting undiscovered since the millennium of the Founding:

 

Details were slow in forthcoming, but it seemed clear that buried deep within the rock of this barren world were secrets that have lain undiscovered these last five thousand years.

 

Granted, when they discovered the labs, there was still some equipment that was functioning, but it was apparent that nobody had been there for quite some time:

 

The place was deserted and, save for the odd scattered bone, the victims of this battle had either been taken by the victors for some unguessable purpose or had long since decayed to dust.

[CantonWC]

Let's keep it civil in here.

 

In regards to the Lammenters and this other stuff, I'll just say this. If there were Lamenters successors, then GW would have written about them already. A Chapter free of the Black Rage and Red Thirst is a massive game changer for the Blood Angels and the High Lords would want to make as many of these Chapters as possible before it was discovered the experiment was a failure. But we have not heard of any such Chapters.

 

There may have been a few successful Chapters of the 21st, but it's called "Cursed" for a reason. As soon as the flaws were discovered any plans for new Chapters created from 21st Chapters would have been dashed. It would just be a risk and a waste of time.

 

If you can cite more than ten official Chapters that were considered failures of the 21st Founding (largest since the Second, by the way), I will be surprised. If you can not only show me ten Chapters that failed, but that also failed within 1,000-1,500 years (a rough spanning of time from 21st to 22nd Founding), I will concede defeat. Until then, the apparent success with some of the Chapters would no doubt lead to continued experimentation on the seemingly successful changes.

 

This is an unfair argument and you know it. We know of less than ten official 21st Chapters. I cite this:

 

21st Founding

 

EDIT: Will return later to evaluate new changes.

[Riconas]

Let's keep it civil in here.

 

Indeed. It really isn't so hard to simply state an opinion, answer a question posed by a previous post, or provide sources for any supposed "facts" being introduced, especially while being cordial at the same time.

 

In regards to the Lammenters and this other stuff, I'll just say this. If there were Lamenters successors, then GW would have written about them already. A Chapter free of the Black Rage and Red Thirst is a massive game changer for the Blood Angels and the High Lords would want to make as many of these Chapters as possible before it was discovered the experiment was a failure. But we have not heard of any such Chapters.

 

There may have been a few successful Chapters of the 21st, but it's called "Cursed" for a reason. As soon as the flaws were discovered any plans for new Chapters created from 21st Chapters would have been dashed. It would just be a risk and a waste of time.

 

I keep seeing references to Successors of the Lamenters, and I'm not certain where this originated; I do know from reading the IA at the beginning of this thread, however, that the Chapter in question in this thread is not claimed to be a Lamenters Successor; it is merely claimed that the altered Blood Angels gene-seed which was used to create the Lamenters was used once again, due to its apparent success, only with some additional changes (though I'm not certain why they would continue to modify it if it had been thought a success, but they may have had their reasons). It is also stated that, because the possibility of the Flaw still existed, they decided to start out small and see what happened. Would this be how the AdMech would handle the situation? I can't say. Would it be a smart thing to do, given the circumstances? I would think so. And, as I've stated before, just because the Lamenters were part of the Cursed Founding wouldn't necessarily mean the gene-seed used to create them wouldn't be used again, especially considering that, for a time, it was deemed a success. Sure, the Lamenters had horrible luck following the Founding, but that had nothing to do with the gene-seed.

 

If you can cite more than ten official Chapters that were considered failures of the 21st Founding (largest since the Second, by the way), I will be surprised. If you can not only show me ten Chapters that failed, but that also failed within 1,000-1,500 years (a rough spanning of time from 21st to 22nd Founding), I will concede defeat. Until then, the apparent success with some of the Chapters would no doubt lead to continued experimentation on the seemingly successful changes.

 

This is an unfair argument and you know it. We know of less than ten official 21st Chapters. I cite this:

 

21st Founding

 

I'm afraid I have to concur with this; there just isn't enough information provided about the Founding (nothing official, anyway) to really know how many Chapters were created during that Founding, let alone how many were deemed failures. Sure, there are a few Chapters listed, but if it were the largest Founding since the Second Founding, then there would certainly be many more than are listed. I can appreciate the argument, but there just isn't enough information to support it.

[Heru]

I keep seeing references to Successors of the Lamenters, and I'm not certain where this originated

The Lamenter Captain being the first Chapter Master is what is making people think they are Lamenter successors. Even though they are more like the Marine Errant (in that their command structure in total came from a number of Chapters rather than just one).

[exetus]

Even though it says that the 1st Chapter Master was a Lamenter Captain, did I miss something in my writing that does not explicitly say that the chapter is of Blood Angels stock and that the initial leadership was chosen from all of the successors? And yes, Heru, my intent was to have them similarly led to the Marines Errant.

 

This is an unfair argument and you know it. We know of less than ten official 21st Chapters. I cite this:

 

21st Founding

 

I know that it's an unfair argument, but so is, "No, this sucks" with no reason as to why. I have taken your citation into my own argument, however, because it's not the only source with those kinds of facts. Lexicanum and the 40k Wiki share the same table. Now if you read what has been cited as info "against me," then the entry I put in from the Codex must be taken into perspective. My logical fallacy was that these guys are the exceptions to the rule. Yet when you mention the "Cursed Founding," of the only ones we have info on (6 Chapters), only two have questionable mutations. I'd argue that the Sons of Antaeus don't have much to offer outside of super strong bone structure. So that says that 50% of the ones we KNOW aren't jacked up. That's a pretty crummy "all or nothing" idiosyncracy between the fluff and the codex, isn't it?

[NightrawenII]

Sorry, Nightrawen, but I don't think you know what YOU are talking about on this one. He has brought out point after point against you, and you have not done the same with hard evidence.

I'm replying to:

*When I run an experiment, I have at least one control and then I have a hypothesis that I plan to test out...*

 

As for the link in PM, that doesn't appear to be official GW canon, which means it was thought up by someone in the community, which in turn means that it shouldn't be relied upon for important details.

It's article from the Index Astartes books, so yes it is official background and it should be relied upon.

 

And, as I've stated before, just because the Lamenters were part of the Cursed Founding wouldn't necessarily mean the gene-seed used to create them wouldn't be used again, especially considering that, for a time, it was deemed a success. Sure, the Lamenters had horrible luck following the Founding, but that had nothing to do with the gene-seed.

There is no successor of Lamenters, therefore is fair to asume that there was no further experiment with gene-seed.

The horrible luck is 'presumably' the result of gene-seed tampering and it was part of Lamenters background since their introduction in "The Cursed Founding" article in the Chapter Approved book.

 

I know that it's an unfair argument, but so is, "No, this sucks" with no reason as to why.

I have given the reason why I don't think the tampering with gene-seed is plausible. It is because the 21th Founding was huge mistake, failure and disaster.

There is no point in continuing with the experiment, when the failure rate is so great and the official lore agrees with me.

[Heru]

As for the link in PM, that doesn't appear to be official GW canon, which means it was thought up by someone in the community, which in turn means that it shouldn't be relied upon for important details.

It's article from the Index Astartes books, so yes it is official background and it should be relied upon.

Having also seen the link, I'm backing NightrawenII up, that is the official Cursed Founding Index Astartes material.

[Riconas]

It's article from the Index Astartes books, so yes it is official background and it should be relied upon.

 

Well, seeing as how you failed to point that out, and how there's no mention of it being from an Index Astartes book, save for the logo at the top (which still doesn't really mean anything), I had no way of knowing that; the link you sent me looks like someone just typed up a story and posted it online. Perhaps you should be more informative in the future. ;) Regardless, I refer you to my previous statement regarding the article.

 

There is no successor of Lamenters, therefore is fair to asume that there was no further experiment with gene-seed.

The horrible luck is 'presumably' the result of gene-seed tampering and it was part of Lamenters background since their introduction in "The Cursed Founding" article in the Chapter Approved book.

 

Again, just because the same gene-seed is used doesn't mean they are a Successor to the Lamenters. Why? Because the gene-seed is from the Blood Angels, not the Lamenters. It was simply used solely for the Lamenters to that point (that we know of). As for the bad luck, I personally think it's pretty short-sighted to consider bad luck being a result of genetic tampering, unless that tampering somehow affected the immaterial workings of the cosmos, in which case it should have affected a lot more than it did. It would be akin to saying that someone crossing the street was hit by a car that ran a red light because they had rhinoplasty. Sorry, but if anything smacks of laziness or lack of creativity (in my opinion at least), having an entire Chapter's misfortunes of fate attributed to genetic tampering definitely qualifies, even if it is "official" and simply "presumed".

 

I have given the reason why I don't think the tampering with gene-seed is plausible. It is because the 21th Founding was huge mistake, failure and disaster.

There is no point in continuing with the experiment, when the failure rate is so great and the official lore agrees with me.

 

I think he might have been citing your lack of actual evidence. I can't be certain, but that's what it sounds like to me. As for the failures in the experiments, they were using at least a few different gene-seeds, not all of which yielded bad results. Granted, they probably would have decided against using any of the gene-seeds again, at least for a while, due to the overall failure of the Founding, but there's nothing to say that, over time, they didn't consider looking at the supposed successful outcomes of some of the experiments (the Lamenters being one example; and for those who are bound to their bad run of luck being tied to the experiments, I refer you to my statement above).

 

 

Regardless, I think the main point should be this: not everyone is going to agree with, or even necessarily like the background and lore you develop for your Chapter; some may even try to cite specific examples (some of which may not even be "official") to discredit it; but that doesn't mean that you have to accept everything they say hands-down. So what if your story conflicts a bit with "official" lore? It's your story for your Chapter. Somehow, I feel that GW expects that, and perhaps even encourages it, and I really doubt that they will send you a letter telling you that your story is full of -_-, which should really be the only true indication that your story doesn't work.

 

So, as long as it makes sense to you, and doesn't conflict heavily with "official" canon, then I say stuff what other people say and run with it, because if it makes you happy, isn't that really all that matters? :)

[Heru]

There is no successor of Lamenters, therefore is fair to asume that there was no further experiment with gene-seed.

The horrible luck is 'presumably' the result of gene-seed tampering and it was part of Lamenters background since their introduction in "The Cursed Founding" article in the Chapter Approved book.

 

Again, just because the same gene-seed is used doesn't mean they are a Successor to the Lamenters. Why? Because the gene-seed is from the Blood Angels, not the Lamenters. It was simply used solely for the Lamenters to that point (that we know of). As for the bad luck, I personally think it's pretty short-sighted to consider bad luck being a result of genetic tampering, unless that tampering somehow affected the immaterial workings of the cosmos, in which case it should have affected a lot more than it did. It would be akin to saying that someone crossing the street was hit by a car that ran a red light because they had rhinoplasty. Sorry, but if anything smacks of laziness or lack of creativity (in my opinion at least), having an entire Chapter's misfortunes of fate attributed to genetic tampering definitely qualifies, even if it is "official" and simply "presumed".

Actually I have to disagree here. Connections can be made with the Black Rage, Sanguinius' prophetic abilities.

 

The Black Rage came about because of the psychic link Sanguinius shared with his Legion, and his death. His psychic abilities almost allowed him to see the future. Now when you "breed out" the Black Rage from the geneseed you could cause all sorts of havoc from the psychic and prophetic perspectives. You could quite simply be stuck making bad decisions that don't seem bad until the "s***" hits the fan because on some level you know what is going to happen but something is making you make these choices.

 

The Lamenters have always been unlucky (their Imperial Armour book Fabrica article indicates it not just the Badab War or Kraken incidents), and the only thing that sets them apart from their Blood Angel kin is the tampering they underwent in the 21st Founding.

[A_POINTED_STICK]

Sanguinary Phalanx

Bloody Finger

Bloody Hand

Bloody Handed

Khaela Mensha

 

KHAINE!

 

BLOOD FOR THE LORD OF MURDER!

 

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5358/11ab6na.jpg

[exetus]

I think you missed a step from Sanguinary Phalanx to Bloody Finger; perhaps Bloody Phalange goes in between the two? LOL.

[Arkangilos]

Well, Phalanx means finger :P.

 

@ Heru, what were you dissagreeing with?

[exetus]

Fair enough... I was not aware that it was interchangeable with "phalange"... interesting.

 

As for the connection that Heru Talon makes, it actually makes sense. I dunno how much it really affects things, but in a galaxy where anything is possible (just about) and the warped way of things usually has its way, I guess I could see that their bad luck COULD be attributed to a lack of good choices that may be inherent to those of the Blood Angels gene pool who may also have some small measure of Sanguinius' foresight that guides their decisions on a subconscious level. Now that the gene curse has manifested itself, however, does that mean the Lamenters are suddenly in for a bout of good luck? LOL.

[Arkangilos]

Well the Black Rage is a mental thing, "luck" is not. Just because your mentality can be corrupted, doesn't mean that the fabric of the space around you can be (without chaos trickery). Unless of course, all of them were psykers 0.0

 

As has been pointed out though, the Lamenters were actually thought a success at first. Heck, they didn't start having the Flaw manifest until recenty, several thousand years later.

 

But as has also been pointed out, we will all keep disagreeing. I like the story, as do some others, and unless GW emails you saying it is totally dumb, I do not see how it breaks fluff.

[NightrawenII]

Actually, the 'luck' is tied down to psychic abilities. People with extreme minor capabilities (Omicron, Xi, Nu, Mu, Lambda, Kappa) are often seen as very lucky.

[CantonWC]

The Cleansing of Dariuzyn [874.M37-895.M37]

 

The picts of three completely empty hives were incomprehensible to most and earning censure from the Adepta Sororitas detachment that accompanied the Suppression Force.

 

A single Hive can contain billions of people. I dunno...

 

It was upon Dremoss V, capital of the Dariuzyn sub-sector and the site of the largest civil war, that Canoness Estrella of the Order of the Valorous Heart declared that she would seek an Inquisitorial investigation into the purity of the Chapter. The Adepta Sororitas and the Imperial Guard had established a buffer between the two factions and engineered a tenuous cease-fire, both sides zealously loyal to the Imperium. As leaders from both factions negotiated terms for a complete cessation of hostilities, a massive explosion destroyed both cadres and the senior Guard and Sororitas commanders

 

...

 

Unfortunately, Canoness Estrella and the Imperial Guard regiments that had been on the surface were lost in the fighting.

 

Am I understanding this right, that the Chapter is possibly guilty of treasonous acts?

 

What the Chaos lackeys assumed would be a quick salvage turned into the moment of greatest triumph for any individual within the Chapter, before or afterwards. With ten of his Sanguinary Guard and Venerable Pyros cradled in the rear clams, the Lord Judicator Japheth carried out his own personal war against the tides of Chaos and ordered his Stormraven to deploy them at the crash site and return with reinforcements. The Emperor's Angels then established a defensive perimeter with the salvaged power lances of the governor's personal bodyguard planted in the ground behind them. As the Stormraven lifted off, smoke obscured the view and all sight of the crash was lost. For ninety-seven hours the Chapter Master and his charges held the defensive line in heroic fashion against incredible odds, but so furious was their defense that when the relief force fought its way through to effect a rescue, not a single Guardsman, nor the Governor grievously harmed. The same could not be said for Japheth who alone remained of the Emperor's Angels, succumbing to his injuries only once the Governor and his men were rescued. More than 11,000 had died at the hands of the Chapter Master and his guard.

 

...

 

After reviewing the recordings, it would later be decided to honor the fallen with the formation they had used to stem the tide, the Phalanx. After his induction as Chapter Master, High Judicator Artaxes petitioned the Adeptus Terra for a name change of the Chapter. Granted in 984.M37, the Emperor's Angels became known as the Sanguinary Phalanx.

 

Astartes are awesome, but not that awesome. This is really straining my suspension of disbelief. And it really calls into question the intelligence and competence, or lack thereof, of the enemy. 11,000 guys can't flank 11 guys? Really?

 

Names are a really sacred thing for Chapters. Yeah fine, 11 guys do an insane act of heroism that really isn't all that believable, but Chapters will do this sort of thing all the time. It takes a massive, fundamental shift in the character of the Chapter, in their outlook, to force a name change.

 

The specifics of the undertaking remain catalogued and sealed under the highest levels of classification within the vaults of Holy Terra, but what is known is the results and the names of the three Chapters tasked; the Sanguinary Phalanx, the Flesh Tearers and the Marines Malevolent. The spoils of the 35-year campaign are evidenced in the vessels that the fleets of the Marines Malevolent and the Sanguinary Phalanx have expanded to include and the silence of a entire sector bears testament to the thoroughness of the campaign. It is noteworthy that not a single Exterminatus decree was carried out, every planet in the sector put to the sword and scoured of life on a personal level. It is also of particular note that, following the Redemption of Clois, the Marines Malevolent professed a declaration that they refused to fight alongside the Sanguinary Phalanx in any future undertakings.

 

Not really buying it. The Marines Malevolent are pretty much the poster boy for psycho Astartes, and these guys are even worse?

 

Write battles only if it highlights an essential part of their Character or highlights a character shift. If you want to keep these, chop them down and put them in a side bar.

 

I've noticed you don't have a beliefs section. I've gotten some hints of a character but nothing substantial. What is at the Core of the Phalanx? What is their outlook? Why do they get up in the morning and fight for the Imperium?

 

CWC

[exetus]

CantonWC

What I was trying to do with the Chapter is to show some of what the other BA successors have become a little known for, especially the Flesh Tearers. The Cleasing of Dariuzyn was to illustrate that, somewhere inside of their noble bearing was a monster, essentially the Rage taking shape as it began to manifest itself with a sudden appearance in the Marines under Alastor during his mission. I wasn't trying to illustrate billions wiped out, so maybe just cities and not hives. I tend to think of hives as being anything from a few hundred thousand in a compact area to the massive billions-rich hives of places like Armageddon. I guess that needs to be refined. And yes, there was a possible treasonous act that was carried out by the Chapter of which no one has any proof whatsoever. It may or may not have been the Phalanx that wiped out the Sisters and the Imperial Guard... no one knows, and that's the point; not many would challenge the word of an Astartes.

 

Whether true or not, this was to go into the keeping secrets bit which is further amplified by the Alastor and the Lost Company.

 

Astartes are awesome, but not that awesome. This is really straining my suspension of disbelief. And it really calls into question the intelligence and competence, or lack thereof, of the enemy. 11,000 guys can't flank 11 guys? Really?

 

Names are a really sacred thing for Chapters. Yeah fine, 11 guys do an insane act of heroism that really isn't all that believable, but Chapters will do this sort of thing all the time. It takes a massive, fundamental shift in the character of the Chapter, in their outlook, to force a name change.

 

Well, they say that a regular Space Marine is as good as about 100 men in various sources. I'd have to find it, but I KNOW I've read that somewhere. In this case, it was the best the chapter had to offer. That may not make them better than an average Marine by a factor of 10, but I thought that with the cream of the crop, 11,000 in 97 hours wasn't TOO unbelievable. There was also a Dreadnought present and the Governor's bodyguard adding supporting fire when they could. I also wasn't trying to imply that they fought in an actual Phalanx, but more of a semi-circle with the wreckage to protect their backs. Ultimately, the name change was adopted, not only because of this action, but as more recruits from their homeworld filled their ranks, to include the new Chapter Master, they began to take on more of the persona and cultural practices of the Ajax population. This was just the extra push to get them to change the name.

 

Not really buying it. The Marines Malevolent are pretty much the poster boy for psycho Astartes, and these guys are even worse?

 

This was another attempt to show stuff along the lines of these guys going well above and beyond the required amount of force (in the eyes of many) to win. Strike hard, strike fast, annihilate everything in your path. The Marines Malevolent (to expand upon it) are much like the Death Spectres... "what the hell happened to our guys fighting alongside you? You bring back armor and geneseed?" It's to become a rivalry between two forces that are equally ruthless in battle, the Phalanx partially through the barely restrained rage within them which is tempered by their hard-hitting tactics, and the Marines Malevolent, who just don't seem to give a damn and are true Machiavellians.

 

I included these to show how they are ruthless in battle and their extremism in many cases turns what should be allies into people who question and suspect them of who knows what.

 

I also noticed, after reading a few others, that I don't have a "Beliefs" section and will get to work on one as that is something crucial to a Space Marine Chapter.

 

If you have some suggestions for me, I would love to hear them.