Index Astartes: Sanguinary Phalanx

[Arkangilos]

Many Inquisitors and Sister of Battle go missing after fighting along side Space Marines... Just like many commissars go missing after several of their summary executions...

[NightrawenII]

... not many would challenge the word of an Astartes.

Let's see... Every single Chapter, Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. Don't forget, the size of the fish is measured by the size of the pond. Yes, the Astartes have some leeway in their actions, but they are far from untouchable and accusation of heresy is serious matter in the Imperium - Let's not forget the Knights of the Blood.

 

Well, they say that a regular Space Marine is as good as about 100 men in various sources. I'd have to find it, but I KNOW I've read that somewhere.

Ahem.

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops."

~ attributed to Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

 

In this case, it was the best the chapter had to offer. That may not make them better than an average Marine by a factor of 10, but I thought that with the cream of the crop, 11,000 in 97 hours wasn't TOO unbelievable.

No.

The marines are that good, because they are using things like tactic and strategy. They can and do outperform their foes because of that. "Find a hill, defend a hill." is direct recipe for disaster.

 

I included these to show how they are ruthless in battle and their extremism in many cases turns what should be allies into people who question and suspect them of who knows what.

See the above. The Astartes aren't untouchable and there is only certain amount of suspicion you can generate. The Chapters were excommunicated for less.

 

Many Inquisitors and Sister of Battle go missing after fighting along side Space Marines... Just like many commissars go missing after several of their summary executions...

Proof or it doesn't happened.

[exetus]

Let's see... Every single Chapter, Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. Don't forget, the size of the fish is measured by the size of the pond. Yes, the Astartes have some leeway in their actions, but they are far from untouchable and accusation of heresy is serious matter in the Imperium - Let's not forget the Knights of the Blood.

 

Fair enough. I guess what I meant to say was whether people would really question them all that much if mission was accomplished and they were the only ones to survive to tell the tale, even after they suffered losses, too? ie. "We had a lot of bad guys, they surprised and overwhelmed the Sisters and IG before we could effect a rescue. We tried, but even WE couldn't do it and took losses in the process!" With no concrete facts to prove that they did it (kinda like the FT's falling on the Sisters at Armageddon).

 

Ahem.

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops."

~ attributed to Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

 

No.

The marines are that good, because they are using things like tactic and strategy. They can and do outperform their foes because of that. "Find a hill, defend a hill." is direct recipe for disaster

 

Mucho gracias! I'll amend that to more properly reflect what they are capable of with the assets they had with a simple last stand and the end in there and fix the numbers to something smaller.

 

See the above. The Astartes aren't untouchable and there is only certain amount of suspicion you can generate. The Chapters were excommunicated for less.

 

Not meant to be untouchable, but once again just meant to be ruthless when it comes to dealing with the enemies of the Imperium. I didn't think there was a ton of people who say "ooh, show them mercy" in the 40k universe. I wanted to illustrate that while they go over the top and sometimes seemingly excessive to others, they also still act (mostly) within the boundaries of their authority. City = Bad... Some guys would cut out the cancerous parts, some would remove those plus the leadership for allowing any kind of corruption and some might just wipe out everyone because they could all be tainted and simply have the populace replaced with the swelling numbers of humans within the Imperium. I don't want to lump them in with the Flesh Tearers alone, but once again, one of those "the Imperium sees them as a terror force that is remarkable at quelling or eliminating rebellion and thus overlooks much of their excess."

 

 

I also dunno that Inquisitors and Sisters disappear ALL of the time. A few times, sure. Armageddon has an example of the militia getting wiped out and the Order of the Argent Shroud demanding the destruction of the Flesh Tearers. One of the short stories in Legends of the Space Marines, "At Gaius Point," shows the wreckage a single stricken Flesh Tearer can cause to the Sisters of Battle and then an entire town. I'm not trying to say that there are ALWAYS instances of their allies being wiped out, but it has happened enough that people are like, what the F? I haven't written it in, but I was planning on having them under Inquisitorial investigation but they just happen to be squeaky clean (if a bit brutal) when others are around, aided by like-minded Inquisitors who have no problem with the cleanse and burn solution.

[Lord Kjeran]

I'm not sure why yet, but I figure that the simple omission of this detail will leave enough vagueness that, while not specifically mentioned, it's still possible that this tampering took place, though perhaps not with the sample used for my Chapter (perhaps they experimented with using a sample not tampered with since the previous Founding for one Chapter, and with a sample subjected to more tampering and experimentation for another Chapter).

 

Or maybe your chapter was the "control" element of the experiment. ;)

[Riconas]

I'm not sure why yet, but I figure that the simple omission of this detail will leave enough vagueness that, while not specifically mentioned, it's still possible that this tampering took place, though perhaps not with the sample used for my Chapter (perhaps they experimented with using a sample not tampered with since the previous Founding for one Chapter, and with a sample subjected to more tampering and experimentation for another Chapter).

 

Or maybe your chapter was the "control" element of the experiment. :devil:

 

That was kind of what i was thinking when I set it up. :(

[Arkangilos]

Tell you what, I will give you proof that is has happened with the Imperial Guard killing an Inquisitor, and a commissar, and you give me proof that a space marine HAS NOT.

 

Dan Abnett's Blood Pact Spoiler

 

Rime smiled, 'Don't be rediculous. Tell your people to surrender. This facility will be overwhelmed in another five minutes.'

'My people don't work like that inquisitor, especially not when the man they're facing has been identified as an agent of the Anarch.'

'Thats preposterous! The ravings of a heretic who'd do anything to save himself!'

Gaunt shook his head. 'Mabbon was certain. He identified you, Syko Magir.'

'The man is insane,' Rime scoffed. 'Put up your weapons. Come on, Guant. I know how straight-laced you are at heart.'

The bolt piston was still in Gaunt's hand. There was one round left in its clip.

He raised it, and aimed directly at Rime.

'No,' he said, 'I have reason to believe that you are an agen of the Archenemy, and I demand that you drop your weapon now.'

'Or what, Gaunt?' Rime grinned. 'You'll shot me? I know you. I've studied your dossier. Without unequivocal proof, you'd never act against the Throne. Ever.'

Gaunt hesitated, and lowered his weapon.

Rime glanced over as Rawne stepped forward.

'We're done, thank you trooper,' Rime said. 'Step back.'

'My boss doesn't trust you,' said Rawne.

'He's got no actual proof,' said Rime. 'And he wont act. I've read his dossier.'

'Yeah,' said Rawne, 'but you've never read mine.'

Rime brough his pistol up, firing, screaming.

Rawne took him down with two kill-shots to the chest. (Abnett, 404-405).

 

That was from them killing the Inquisitor, whom they had no proof he was bad.

 

 

For the commissars I bring up Cadian Blood on page 339.

[Whitefireinferno]

Yet this is one occasion each with a character with HEAVY plot armour.

[NightrawenII]

@Telanicus

Many Inquisitors and Sister of Battle go missing after fighting along side Space Marines... Just like many commissars go missing after several of their summary executions...

[exetus]

Added a "Beliefs" section and have modified part of their battle history. The major changes I have made so far are in red. I am slowly getting to this, so please bear with me.

[Visitor13]

The name is a little awkward.

 

How would he introduce himself?

 

I am a Bloody Battle Formation?

 

I am a Sanguinary Phalangite.

[Marshal Rohr]

The name is a little awkward.

 

How would he introduce himself?

 

I am a Bloody Battle Formation?

 

I am a Sanguinary Phalangite.

 

I had that once. The doctor gives you a cream for it to relieve the burning.

[Visitor13]

The name is a little awkward.

 

How would he introduce himself?

 

I am a Bloody Battle Formation?

 

I am a Sanguinary Phalangite.

 

I had that once.

 

A dictionary?

[Marshal Rohr]

Phalangite is the plural of phalanx. It was a STD joke.

 

 

Man, when did my jokes become unapparent?

[Phoebus]

Sorry to resurrect this topic, but this is my first time reading it through.

 

Reading through the discussions, I think much of the forest was lost for the trees. Where failure is concerned, whether "epic" equals or does not equal "complete" is irrelevant. What matters is this: WHEN did the 21st Founding become broadly known as the Cursed Founding? If this did not occur until after the 22nd Founding (that is, a millennium later), then this discussion is moot.

 

Now, as much as I want to agree with my friend Exetus, it would appear as if popular opinion was against the 21st Founding as early as the early years of M37--the time period when the 22nd Founding was established. IA 9 has this to say:

 

"Although the Lamenters were among those of the Founding who had been spared a devolution into something no longer human or sane, its mark was still upon them in the eyes of their fellow Space Marines, many of whom grew to shun the Chapter, regardless of their undoubted loyalty to the Imperium and noble defense of its people, ... As matters worsened in early M.37, the Lamenters departed to the Imperium's fringes rather than risk internecine conflict at a time when the more wayward and corrupt members of the 21st Founding and other dissident forces were being exterminated in a series of bloody wars and purges."

 

So it would seem that the 21st Founding was already earning a poor reputation as the 22nd Founding was gearing up... to say the least. Even worse, from the same book:

 

"The wisdom in tampering with the Space Marine's genesis ... appears to have been question, even at the time...

...

The Blood Angels ... have long sought an answer to their affliction, and it is likely that the ... procedures performed on the Lamenters gene-seed ... were done with ... at their progenitor's tacit approval.

...

... almost immediately certain idiosyncrasies of mind and temperament were noted within the Lamenters, factors that that only grew more pronounced as the years passed. ... Whatever the truth of this, ill-fortune had already begun to follow the Lamenters ... and by the end of M.36* it was already apparent that many of what had already become known as the Cursed Founding's children were succumbing to maladies and malevolences...

...

Given this ... the experimental procedures that created the Lamenters from the Blood Angel's gene-stock were not repeated, and the Chapter itself remains in its way unique in the Imperium's forces."

* = thus, right before the Twenty-Second Founding.

 

What does that tell me?

 

Well, nothing (or, at any rate, hardly nothing) is impossible in the realm of 40k. For every such article, we have a novel like "Red Fury", which has a well-meaning Sanguinary Priest engage in ill-advised attempts to clone Blood Angels. So is it so inconceivable that a radical member of the Mechanicum and/or a radical contingent of Blood Angels might re-attempt the Lamenters experiment under the aegis of a new Founding? I, personally, don't think so. That having been said, though, given the information given in the Imperial Armour books as well as the Space Marine Codices, the origins of the Sanguinary Phalanx - as written - should remain covert.

 

Cheers,

P.