Pain Tokens

[bystrom]

My question is when a DE squad gets the ability furious charge or feels no pain with regards to pain tokens.

 

Consider the following situations:

Suppose a Succubus (I8) joined with some wyches (I6) charge a squad of marines with an attached independent character. The Succubus kills the IC and therefore the squad gains a pain token.

If this is the first pain token the squad gets Feel No Pain. Will this occur at I8 or I7 or after the assault round is finished? What if instead all involved in the combat struck at I4?

If this is the second pain token the squad gains Furious Charge. When will this occur? Will the wyches gain furious charge for that round (and therefore strike at I7)? What if it wasn't a Succubus but an Archon with I7? Will the wyches suddenly atack at the same initiative step as the Archon? Will they strike at I6 but gain +1S?

 

The reason for these questions is the BA FAQ:

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of a

Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the

bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)

A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model

makes its close combat attacks.

 

It seems reasonable (based on the FAQ) that the squad would gain FnP if the squad gains the pain token before being attacked. Likewise, if they gain the pain token at an initiative step 2 more than they strike they would gain FC. Likewise, it seems unreasonable that the squad gets to use FnP or FC if the pain token is gained at the same initiative step as all attacks occur simultaneously. But what about the case with the Archon at I7 and the wyches at I6 and FC? The wyches get FC before they make their CC-attacks but doing so would break the initiative step order, as they would suddenly attack at an initiative that has already been played.

 

Another (small) question, in multiple combats, the pain tokens are randomly assigned among the relevant DE units involved. Does this mean that if two DE units fought two enemy units and destroyed both, each of the DE units gain a pain token or you roll twice, which might mean there's a chance that one squad gets two pain tokens while the other gets none. What if there is an IC in the mix as well; the BBB states that during the actual fighting stage, an IC is treated as a single-model unit, would you randomize between three squads? Would the attached unit not get the pain?

[Hellios]

My answer is no way endorsed by GW... but...

 

You can use the pain token against any attack at an initiative below what you gained it at... so if you are I6 and wipe out a unit then against I5 attacks and worse. This is because the squad 'theoretically' all saves and attacks are done at the same time so you don't know that the enemy unit is dead until you have also taken your saves.

 

As for furious charge... I would it only counts if you have it when you charge even if the character was 8 and so being boosted to I7 wouldn't require that level of I to be replayed that is how I wopuld play it.

[Legatus]

Since the rules for pain tokens say tehy are gaines "immediately" I would personally say yes to the feel no pain but no to the furious charge.

 

I am not that happy with the explanation for Corbulo, but there is a crucial difference between the Blood Angels getting the bonus at the moment they are making their attacks and Dark Eldar with a lower initiative rating benefiting from a newly gained pain token.

In case of the Blood Angels, all the models in the combat are in position when the combat starts, and models do not move around during combat, so it is clear which models get an initiative bonus right at teh start of teh combat and there are no issues.

However, in case of the Dark Eldar, the attacks are already under way when suddenly the initiative of some models would be altered. Like in this example: The pain token is obtained after the Initiative 7 attacks, and the Wyches would have been next with Initiative 6, but are now (hypothetically) bumped up to Initiative 7. That is a problem, because all attacks from Initiative 7 would usually supposed to be made at the same time and then would have to be distributed between the modles of the target unit. But since some enemy models have already been removed as casualties (granting the pain token), the "new" attacks made also at Initiative 7 would now be rolled as a follow up batch, and would not be distributed at the same time with the previous Initiative 7 attacks.

 

Because of these issues with the core game rules I would say that a furious charge bonus should not be applied while a combat is already under way, i.e. attacks have already been made. In case of the Blood Angels rule, the bonus is already in place before the first attacks are being made.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

In case of the Blood Angels, all the models in the combat are in position when the combat starts, and models do not move around during combat, so it is clear which models get an initiative bonus right at teh start of teh combat and there are no issues.

 

Except you run into the reverse issue because the priest can be killed out from under you at init step 5. And that becomes a question of when would the models have made their attacks. At init 4 as per what you are checking it against or at init 5 as per what they had with FC.

[Legatus]

But that would not lead to issues, since when the models would have struck at this same initiative (where the augmenting model is killed) with the bonus, they will still do so because their attacks were considered to be made at the same time (naturally tehy will not be able to attack again at the lower initiative step). If they would make their attacks after the initiative step where the augmenting model is killed, they will now simply go at a later time. The order is changed a bit from what it would have been at the beginning of the battle, but those attacks have not yet been made, and changing their order to a step later does not lead to issues. Models losing initiative while the combat already is under way is not a big problem. Only models gaining initiative would lead to issues, since they then may suddenly be able to strike at the time of the currently on going initiative step, even though some attacks have already been resolved and models removed.

 

 

Loss of Initiative. Augmenting model is killed at Initiative 5:

 

- Models with augmented Initiative 6 or more: These models had already made their attacks, and can not attack again, even if their Initiative is lowered to a value that is currently making attacks or is yet to make any attacks.

 

- Models with augmented Initiative of 5: These models will still make their attacks at the Initiative 5 step, because their attacks are considered to happen at the same time as the attacks that killed the augmenting model. They cannot attack again at their lowered Initiative.

 

- Models with augmented Initiative 4 or less: These models did not get to attack so far, and will now simply attack at a later Initiative step than they would have at the start of the combat.

 

 

Gaining Initiative:

 

- Models with regular Initiative 5 or more: No problem here, since these models either already had made their attacks anyway or are currently making their attacks at the same time as the attacks granted the pain token.

 

- Models with regular Initiative 4: --> This is the problem. The models are suddenly augmented to Iniatiative 5, which means they would go at the same time as the attacks that granted the pain token. But since their attacks would go at the same time, there would have been no "to wound" rolls or saves and no model would have been removed before these models had made their attacks. It is important for wound allocation that all shots of a volley or all attacks in one initiative step are resolved at the same time, and not one after another.

 

- Models with regular Initiative 3 or less: No problem here, because even with an augmented Initiative these models would still go after the current Initiative step.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

yes but wouldn't the models be checked for Init at Step 4 when they you know..might put their attacks to use normally?

 

maybe Im just being troublesome because I dont like the FAQ its a silly way of doing it because it doubles back on how it should be played and how its always been dealt with in my experience. :/

[Legatus]

yes but wouldn't the models be checked for Init at Step 4 when they you know..might put their attacks to use normally?

In which of the scenarios? When they had been augmented to Initiative 5 and suddenly lose that bonus? Then no. The attacks of the models are considered to occur at the same time as the Initiative 5 attacks that killed the model that granted them the bonus.

When they were previously unaugmented and suddenly gain a bonus, bringing them to initiative 5? You could obviously decide to ignore the sudden bonus and still resolve their attacks at Initiative 4, but that is not explained, so players will have to figure out how to resolve the situation. In a tournament scenario the players may not agree on how to handle it.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

yes but wouldn't the models be checked for Init at Step 4 when they you know..might put their attacks to use normally?

In which of the scenarios? When they had been augmented to Initiative 5 and suddenly lose that bonus? Then no. The attacks of the models are considered to occur at the same time as the Initiative 5 attacks that killed the model that granted them the bonus.

When they were previously unaugmented and suddenly gain a bonus, bringing them to initiative 5? You could obviously decide to ignore the sudden bonus and still resolve their attacks at Initiative 4, but that is not explained, so players will have to figure out how to resolve the situation. In a tournament scenario the players may not agree on how to handle it.

 

Edit 2: Sorry these are both in relation to the priest.

 

I thought that was why typically you got the FC bonus when you know charged instead of making attacks because then theoretically you wouldnt really know that they got the bonus till after Init Step 5 was over and you went down to 4 to make the attacks with the models. (Does that even make sense?)

 

Edit:

 

I suppose the other way of putting it would be this. If I dont get the FC bonus until I make my Attacks. then I am not init 5 until I hit init 4 to make the attacks. Which is basically the same problem as the Lord?

[Legatus]

I guess the brief FaQ answer should not be taken completely literal. I would not take that as "apply the bonus at the initiative step where the model makes its attacks", but rather "apply the bonus when the model is in combat and is eligible to make attacks.

 

Models will not change position once a combat has started (they may only be removed as casualties), so you can basically check at the beginning of the combat, after all assault moves are done, which models are within range of the priest.

 

The main point of the FaQ question was to determine whether a unit had to be within range of the Priest before it made the assault move (possibly moving out of range) or after the assault move (possibly having moved into range) in order to get the bonus. And according to the FaQ it is the latter, even if that was a bit unfortunately phrased.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I guess the brief FaQ answer should not be taken completely literal.

I never thought I'd hear that in here :tu:

 

The main point of the FaQ question was to determine whether a unit had to be within range of the Priest before it made the assault move (possibly moving out of range) or after the assault move (possibly having moved into range) in order to get the bonus. And according to the FaQ it is the latter, even if that was a bit unfortunately phrased.

 

But they can also be removed which makes the Priest's FC one of the few charge bonuses in the game that can be abruptly stopped *sigh* Chaplains dont even have the same problem but so be it.

[Legatus]

Perhaps "don't take it literal" was not very accurate. The FaQ answer (the models need to be in range when the bonus is used) is not very specific, and "when the bonus is used" should be read at "during the combat" and not "at the initiative step where the models make their attacks". You can take the FaQ answer literal, but the phrase "when the bonus is used" can be interpreted.

 

 

But they can also be removed which makes the Priest's FC one of the few charge bonuses in the game that can be abruptly stopped

There is no clear ruling for such a situation. But at least the bonus "suddenly being stopped" will not lead to any problems, as I have tried to point out. If the bonus is removed before the models got to strike, they will now simply strike a bit later. If the bonus is removed at the moment the models strike, they still strike (because it happens simultaneously). If teh bonus gets removed after the models got to strike, nothing will be affected at all.