What could we have to make us unique?

[Zincite]

So, I can't help but notice that we don't have much that makes us unique anymore. Not that this is a bad thing; comparing 4th Ed C:SM, and present C:DA, our codex made some nice improvements (Even if some of the Text was Copy-Pasted). And the FAQ has made us very nice.

 

But I can't see that much that really makes us stand out, that makes it worthwhile actually using the Codex. Not that there isn't anything, but C:SM just seems to have so many things that we don't. It even sounds like the Terminator Army list is being taken away by the Gray Knights codex.

 

But I'm whining now. My point is; When, or if, the next Codex comes out, what could we have that makes us different? What sort of new units or rules could we have that no one else has? And of course, what models to go with them? And, what fluff?*

 

(Don't worry, I do realize that we do have quite a few things that are nice, mainly the RW/DW thing. This isn't in anyway meant as a rant :) )

 

*Edit

[Frater Uriah]

I don't know... I think we have a lot that makes us special now: Terminators as Troops, Ravenwing Attack Squadrons as Troops, or Tactical Marines as Troops, all based around what we pick for one or both of our HQ choices. DA have awesome versatility and work best when you use a combined-arms approach to them, rather than sticking to strictly Deathwing, Ravenwing or Greenwing lists. While a nifty, DA-only special rule in the next codex would be cool and shiny, I don't think a lack of some army-specific rule, like Combat Tactics or Red Thirst, makes us less interesting now. We can roll blazing fast (with teleport homers), heavy-armored deep strike, or standard Tactical, or any combination thereof if we put Belial, Sammael, or both on the board, and fill up six slots worth of them, so you can drop pod in three drop pods full of Dreads if you want to, without sacrificing your Terminator slots.

 

It's precisely the DA's versatility that I hope doesn't get nerfed in the new codex, whenever it comes out. Yes, I'd like it if I could field Belial with a WS 6 and an Iron Halo, but as it stands, for 130 points, three free choices of weapons load-outs and Terminators as troops, he's the best bargain buy in the game. Likewise with Sammael: I can drop him in what is basically a flying Land Raider and run crazy across the board with a BS 5 and a slew of teleport homer-equipped, Scouting bikes (and scoring Land Speeders, if I take a topped-off RAS or two... or six, if I have that kind of points to spend).

 

We have awesome special rules now, we just only have one named one in Deathwing Assault.

 

And our Chaplains have a much cooler name for their special rule (Litanies of Hate is 300% more awesome than Liturgies of Battle).

[Zincite]

Good point, and likewise, I'm quite happy with the rules. But It just doesn't feel like we're special enough...

 

Though I admit, we have the best fluff ever. We aren't Blood thirsty vampires, or howling vikings-in-space. Nor even black-and-white zealous pandas. We're the Bad guys that get to be Good! :P

[Brother Kovash]

The appeal to me for the Dark Angels is more the fluff than the actual gameplay. But in the end, it all comes down to how we perform on the table top. Like Uriah said, our best approach is a mixed list. I would love to see that continued, but the main thing I would like to see is our points cost fall in line with the rest of the codices out there.

 

And please, give Belial an iron halo! It's insane for him to not have one.

[lithior]

Mortis Dreadnought rules in the codex and a GW model would be awesome...

 

Apart from that and bringing our points costs in line with C:SM I really hope they don't change too much. I love our codex, the lack of fancy rules and flying Land Raiders is what makes the Dark Angels special to me, changing too much could easily ruin what makes our codex so indiviual.

 

Lithior

[Zincite]

My point seems to have been missed, no doubt because of my bad typing.

 

...And of course, what models to go with them?

 

And what fluff? At the moment we don't have any units that really makes us unique, for example:

 

Lion's Rage

 

A Lions Rage is a rhino chassis, with two heavy bolters on ether side. It serves the Dark Angel's common tactic of thrusting at the enemy then holding against the counter-attack with stubborn resolve perfectly.

 

Armor: F13, S11, B10

Armed with two heavy bolters and dozer blade. May be given pintal-mounted Storm Bolter at XX points, extra armor at XX points, hunter-killer missile at XX points. Heavy Bolters may be upgraded to las-cannons at XX points.

 

Serves fluff, rules, and models. ;)

[Boltergeist]

At this point the only issue is points cost, and even then you can pull off some nasty combos.

 

The thing I think would be most fitting for DA would be something similar to the old Salamanders army rule-- they should be able to reroll the die to see if the game ends. IF/CF may get stubborn (which I also don't think is out of place for DA, but meh), but DA are really stubborn, and will keep on fighting if it means they can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

 

There are also a lot of little things they could do, like make Deathwing straight up troops without the need for a SC, let tac squads take 2 heavy weapons instead of 1 special/1 heavy, chaplains that make their squads scoring, etc. To me that would better represent the behind-the-scenes drive of the Unforgiven, moreso than some uber killy super unit.

[MadDoc]

Makes up fluff, rules, and models. :D

There, fixed that for you. ;)

[Bryan Blaire]

The thing I think would be most fitting for DA would be something similar to the old Salamanders army rule-- they should be able to reroll the die to see if the game ends. IF/CF may get stubborn (which I also don't think is out of place for DA, but meh), but DA are really stubborn, and will keep on fighting if it means they can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

 

Funny that you bring up the old Salamander's army rule. I think that was actually Azrael's rule first, named No Surrender from the 3ed Ed DA Codex. He also had a special rule that gave every Dark Angel on the table Stubborn, which I believe is now called Fearless (auto-pass Morale checks, even if the check is supposed to be an auto-fail, can't voluntarily fall back from close combat).

[lithior]

There are also a lot of little things they could do, like make Deathwing straight up troops without the need for a SC, let tac squads take 2 heavy weapons instead of 1 special/1 heavy, chaplains that make their squads scoring, etc. To me that would better represent the behind-the-scenes drive of the Unforgiven, moreso than some uber killy super unit.

 

 

 

Those are some awesome ideas, especially the two heavy weapons in a tactical squad, it's subtle yet really plays to the Dark Angel's fluff.

 

Lithior

[Bryan Blaire]

What fluff, exactly, does two Heavy weapons play to?

[lithior]

To me Dark Angels have always been quite a firepower heavy chapter, Zincite summed it up nicely when he said;

 

''It serves the Dark Angel's common tactic of thrusting at the enemy then holding against the counter-attack with stubborn resolve perfectly.''

[Son of Rawl]

Something that shows that the DA are the first of the Astartes, not a cut and paste rule or unit from the other marine dexs but something that actually justifies giving another chapter a Codex.

[Bryan Blaire]

To me Dark Angels have always been quite a firepower heavy chapter, Zincite summed it up nicely when he said;

 

''It serves the Dark Angel's common tactic of thrusting at the enemy then holding against the counter-attack with stubborn resolve perfectly.''

 

Okay, I know that several people have said things like this, but that wasn't my question. What fluff have you read that I can read that shows that the Dark Angels use more heavy firepower than other Space Marine chapters? I haven't read it all, but the Angels of Death codex didn't seem to indicate this, nothing in the 3rd Edition DA codex gives me an impression that DA are more firepower heavy than anyone else, nor the 4th Edition DA Codex. Decent of Angels didn't seem to indicate a heavier level of firepower, nor did Fallen Angels.

 

Stubborn resolve, sure. Deathwing assaults, sure. Deathwing being painted bone-white, fluff reason. Ravenwing being black armored, fluff and now some BL reasoning behind this as an old Caliban knightly order.

 

I haven't read the new Kallidus book though, so I'm wondering if the excess of firepower is included in that fluff?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for things that make us different than other chapters, especially since the current trends seem to be: "take all the old things that made the DA unique, spread them out among the other chapters", never pursue some cool fluff ideas (Plains world), utilize the same fluff for our chapter as another (DA as Knights vs. Black Templars as Knights). An extra heavy weapon would be cool, but if we are going to justify saying that we should get it, I think it should be based on things that are already there, otherwise, this seems like something that we should let GW make up for us (and possibly something we should lobby for somehow).

[Grand Master Neo]

not included in kadillus but it is widely accepted that the dark angels are a stand shoot/absorb enemy firepower type army

 

i think where people are getting mixed up is that the DA have always been known as THE stubborn chapter and to take advantage of not falling back people tended to load up with heavy weaponry and let the standard bolter marines disappear first

[lithior]

Maybe fluff was the wrong word, I've just always thought of the Dark Angels as a 'shooty' army and now you've pointed it out I can't even explain why but Grand Master Neo may have just hit the nail on the head.

 

Lithior

[DAG42]

A long time ago Deathwing was allowed 2 heavies per 5 man sqd. but that was back around 92-93 time frame I think. Now getting that back would be nice.

[MadDoc]

None of which actually makes the DA any 'shootier' or more firepower heavy than other Marines.

 

Just because people were forced to adopt a certain tactic by one Codex (3E), and GW's lame attempt at fixing that self same lame duck Codex was to add Plasma cannons as an option for DA Tacticals, that does not equate to the Dark Angels being a 'shooty' Chapter.

 

We've had 3 (maybe 3.5 if you count the 3E revised 'dex) DA Codexes and of those only 1 had even a single rule which propogated the stand and shoot mentality, the other two show no predilection for being shooty (one trick ponies) over being combined arms (a build far more representative of the DA's tactical brilliance and do what works attitude as described in the background).

 

I challenge anybody to show me even a single piece of valid evidence that the DAs are in actuality a 'shooty' Chapter. Just so we're clear, people's C:DA 3E inspired misconceptions count as neither valid nor evidence.

 

Note to anybody thinking they might try using the Standard of Devastation and Standard of Fortitude as proof of the DA being 'shooty', thats been tried before and disproved. Thats 2 items of wargear with shooting related bonuses versus at least 5 DA specific items that I can name off the top of my head that confer close combat related bonuses, including the Standard of Retribution.

 

A long time ago Deathwing was allowed 2 heavies per 5 man sqd. but that was back around 92-93 time frame I think. Now getting that back would be nice.

That would be nice, but how would you balance it? Higher points for the upgrades?

 

Make the squads 5-10 again and only allow a second heavy when at 10 models? How do you then balance those potentially 1st turn Deep Striking, 2+ Save 10 man squads as possible Troops choices without making them prohibitively expensive?

 

It would be nice, but it would be hard to balance. And frankly, my faith in GW and their designers abilities is more than alittle shaken, not least of which by their continued use of Ward as a Codex writer (if they want to let him write rules more power to them, but they should not be letting him continue to butcher the background).

 

What I'd like to see is some characterful Psychic powers on DA Librarians (Weaken Resolve making a return in some form or another would be good), the Mortis Dreadnought making it into the codex (not just a Dread with different weapon options, but something a little extra, a new special rule to show its focussed fire or something similar). Maybe a new unique retinue for Interrogator-Chaplains and Librarians made up of sword wielding executioner types.

[HsojVvad]

How to make us unique? How about keeping our scoring Speeders? How about making other units scoring as well before it was taken away. Devestator squads and what ever else. This could show how the DA are the Tactical geniuses from The Lion. If not this way, how about brining back the Iron Wing then? I don't use vehicles yet, so how it's a SM army that uses alot of vehicles more than anyone else then?

 

I don't know what the rules for SW or GK are, but can we make our Termies more unique that what is in the other two codicies?

 

Here is a question. Do we really need to be unique? I mean THAT unique like other codicies have? Is this penis envy? Since other SM chapters are different and have OMG stuff in thier, do we as Dark Angels need that as well? Do you really want to ride a wolf? Do you really want a terminator driving a bigger mecha? I don't even know what Blood Angels are. I don't see them riding bats thank God.

 

How about everything being sublty better, no OMG stuff. Have our bikers a bit better maybe more skillfull. How about if we are to be a 5 man Termie force, make them all different and unique. Hell give them either 2 heavy weapons or make them 2 wounds each or both because they can't go over 5 men.

 

Hell I always said, let us be the only one with a Primarch, ;).

[lithior]

Do you think there's much chance of them changing/removing the option of us using Deathwing as troops? Cause that would leave alot of us with alot of Terminators that we can't use in anything but Apocolypse battles, would they do that?

 

Lithior

[MadDoc]

Do you think there's much chance of them changing/removing the option of us using Deathwing as troops? Cause that would leave alot of us with alot of Terminators that we can't use in anything but Apocolypse battles, would they do that?

 

Lithior

Highly doubtful. Though with GW you can never be too sure.

[bdawalt]

Here's something I posted last year in the DA rules development subforum - I'm still a fan of my INTRACTABLE rule. See whatcha think:

 

"Lots of good stuff here... I like it!

 

Here's my .02 cents:

 

I agree with several things others have said already - no terminator armor for Azrael since his armor is his badge of office. He does need some sort of invul save in CC though. Heavenfall blades should come back and give Belial and Sammael +1 STR. Stubborn should come from ICs who grant it to a squad when attached - and all DA ICs should have it. Asmodai and the standards are a wonderful idea. And yes, the blades of reason should return to combat!! We certainly need our standards back as they were one of the things that made us unique and Bethor should somehow still carry them.

 

Lastly, here's my version of what I think should be our signature rule:

 

INTRACTABLE - Dark Angels are known throughout the Galaxy for their determination and legendary resistance to overwhelming odds. Squads that fall to 50% strength or less gain the "Feel No Pain" USR for the rest of the game.

 

May be a bit much - but I think that those last few members of a squad should be able to do some serious damage while hanging around for a while. Plus I think its really in line with how DA should be for the last half of a squad to get really pissed that all their brothers died and absorb a large amount of hurt before they either go down too or win the whole fight almost single handedly. I'd considered making it 60% so we could keep the last three termies in a squad - but that would probably make the rule too powerful for Tac/Assault/Dev squads. Thoughts?"

[HsojVvad]

That is a good idea bdwalt, but seeing this for 5 man terminators, only 2 termies would have it, I can't see it doing much, but for a 10 man DA PA yes I can see with. I think it should be like this for PA DA, and a full 5 man squad would have it. The thing with FNP I don't like is, it slows the game down. I guess anytime someone with FNP rolls to see if they save, they should roll 2 different coloured dice.

 

One say white is your normal save so if you make it, you make it, the other is a different colour die and it's your feel no pain. So if you fail the regular white one, then what ever the other coloured FNP one is rolled at the same time, so it doesn't slow down the game. It eliminates the roll wait see what it is, and then roll if you fail. This way if you pass, ignore the FNP roll, if you fail, then see what the FNP roll is and then pass or fail from that roll.

[Valkyrion]

Terminators are fearless and so wouldn't necessarily get the intractable rule, although it would give them less of an advantage.

 

The different aspects need something to really make them different, yet work together.

The RW/DW homer/DS combo is really cool, but in the normal dex scouts and tactical squads do the same thing.

Bikes as troops is cool, but thats also in SM.

 

Maybe get rid of deathwing assault, or give the deathwing assault rule to Belial, but allow a single terminator squad to arrive from reserve whenever the DA player wants as long as he is using a homer from a RW bike?

 

give tactical squads either the FNP intractable rule above, or at the very least stubborn.

Give RW hit and run or a similar rule to allow them to speed away from a combat.

 

As a special boon, tying in to the possible rumour that they have a lot of techmarines from a few weeks ago, make the Extra Armour upgrade a bit cheaper? Remove techmarines from the FOC? Allow Veteran Sergeants Special Ammunition?

 

They don't really need a lot - accurate deep striking fearless terminators when the player wants, stubborn troops, hit and run hunter type bikes. All that as standard, and for 'free'.

 

Forget the new units, really, just give them a unique play style with all the elements working in concert, with an additional special rule for Belial (DW troops, DW assault), Sammael (upgrade command squad to jetbikes?) and a Company Master (erm...) so that if you want to field a single element you get a viable and competitive reason to do so.

[Frater Uriah]

INTRACTABLE - Dark Angels are known throughout the Galaxy for their determination and legendary resistance to overwhelming odds. Squads that fall to 50% strength or less gain the "Feel No Pain" USR for the rest of the game.

 

May be a bit much - but I think that those last few members of a squad should be able to do some serious damage while hanging around for a while. Plus I think its really in line with how DA should be for the last half of a squad to get really pissed that all their brothers died and absorb a large amount of hurt before they either go down too or win the whole fight almost single handedly. I'd considered making it 60% so we could keep the last three termies in a squad - but that would probably make the rule too powerful for Tac/Assault/Dev squads. Thoughts?"

I will say, that I never liked the name Intractable. The original idea was bad when it came out, and I can't for the life of me understand the odd nostalgia that we in the DA community have for the term. 'Alright, lads, we need to go over the top, but we've a one-in-six chance of staying put this turn! One, two, three... :cuss !'

 

While your version of it is not a bad idea, it is only of marginal value during the game: I playtested something remarkably similar a couple of months ago, with a system not too unlike the one you described. One time, we made it a 5+ invul save, the other, the survivors got FNP. And it didn't turn out to be worth its weight in points, so we culled it and went back to the drawing board three more times. Ultimately, I determined that our current codex is just fine, without the bells and whistles.

 

Mortis Dreads, however they're going to look when the codex comes out, will be good for fluff, if nothing else (the ones in IA are pretty blah as they stand right now). I actually like our Tac squads as they are: we get special weapons with Combat Squads, versus all other Tac squads in the game who have to wait for 10 for both a special and a heavy. People gripe about the price differential between us an Vanilla, but I can give my group of five dudes a bit of extra kit to make life unpleasant for the bad guys, and I like that just fine.

 

I understand that 5th Edition is the age of the "Ours Goes to 11" Codex, but I don't think that crazy, named special rules are what make it for the DA. I don't even cry (much, anymore...) about our commanders having a lower WS than SM/SW/BA equivalents, because I know that, at least, will be fixed in the next edition, and because our Chaplains' and Librarians' statlines are awesome comparatively. Additionally, our psychic hoods weren't nerfed by the FAQ, which astonished me to no small end and is actually something I hope we get to keep, because I like the idea of DA Librarians being around to keep other psykers down and make life unpleasant for them, no matter where they are. Maybe a rule that makes some synchronicity between our Interrogator-Chaplains and Librarians...? That could be something similar to the old Hunt the Fallen Rule, and doesn't need to encompass the whole Dark Angels Army, keeping it inside the Inner Circle, as it were.