Bryan Blaire Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I don't understand everyone's obsession with wanting DA troops to stay in place/stand and take it. I understand the Stubborn concept, but "Stay in Place!" is somewhat counterintuitive to an army that is supposed to be the gene-progeny of someone that is supposed to be one of the top tactical minds in the Crusade. You can be stubborn in the field, shrugging off the wounds you and your team/squad has taken, and still move and fulfill your tactical objective, and generally all tactics, unless you are specifically defending a location, requires you to keep moving. Tactically, you want to keep the enemy off-balance, appear where they didn't think you would be, utilize the terrain to your advantage, move through cover, and when you do make contact, apply the firepower you have in the most effective way possible. You generally do not drop to the ground and return fire in the middle of open terrain because 2 to 5 men have been killed (depending on the size of your squad) and completely ignore whatever tactical position you were trying to gain. Contact with enemy fire when you weren't expecting it requires movement to cover and immediate re-evaluation of the route you were taking to your target, unless you can determine the enemy you are in contact with is the target. Any rule that says "We're so Stubborn we immediately stand in place and just fire fire fire while taking even more casualties" doesn't really reflect well our supposed tactical acumen (and this really hasn't ever been well reflected in the rules that have come before). We'd be better served by having rules that allowed us to shrug off casualties and continue moving to cover, possibly a bonus to us getting into cover (higher save or extra movement to attempt to get to cover), or something to reflect a more accurate application of directed firepower, instead of "Let's just stupidly stand here in the open, take more wounds, potentially firing with ineffective weapons because only the heavy weapon can reach the squad that inflicted the wounds on us." When the DA squads were taking casualties while trying to secure the siege cannons from the Dark Mechanicum forces, did they all just stop immediately where they were and return fire and ignore their overall target, or did the Lion recognize that they had to keep moving to secure their objectives and then make the enemy pay for the deaths of his gene-sons? Something like that would be much more reflective of our army's supposed tactical acumen. Why not a rule that lets our Outflanking forces immediately come in on the table edge we want them to, in a fashion similar to Deathwing assault? That would be another "We're good at tactics" concept rule for us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 the reason everybody has that image in their head is because of the way the rules were laid out previously, but we have a chance to change that now. the run for cover option you mentioned is a good one. how about if a squad takes 25% casualties and has cover within 6 inches then the squad must run for cover, but, because the enemy position is known any heavy weapons in the squad may fire as if they had stayed stationary Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Sounds like you want our guys to have the Relentless USR. Or maybe Slow and Purposeful? That would be a little more balanced. Why not a rule that lets our Outflanking forces immediately come in on the table edge we want them to, in a fashion similar to Deathwing assault? That would be another "We're good at tactics" concept rule for us. Now this sounds more likely. Combine this with Deathwing Assault, and we'd have some action more comparable to what goes in the "real" 41st millenium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boltergeist Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Anything that involves mandatory movement is pretty bad. Relentless for tactical marines would be pretty good though-- extra training, combat doctrine etc etc lets them fire more accurately while advancing. Maybe a start-of-turn choice to pick up S&P would be a bit more balanced. I don't think it's so much a factor of DA being the shooty chapter, it's just that all the other non-Ultra chapters are close combat based. DA seem shootier by default. That being said, I don't think it's a bad thing to add some variety, and making their tac squads into more workhorse style units by increasing their flexibility seems fitting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyDreadnought Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Rites of Battle has to stay on our captains. And having Jink back would be nice. Edit: My reasoning for the Dark Angels keeping Rites of Battle on the Captain choice is twofold. One: It makes Captains a worthwhile purchase, bringing something to the table other than 'That cheap HQ choice'. And Two: It fits the ethos of tactical supremacy the Dark Angels have. Dark Angels captains are described as masters of battle. So having his high leadership spread across the entire army fits that. It also makes them far diffrent from Blood Angels, 'Generic' Codex Chapters and other more exotic chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boltergeist Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Oh yeah, forgot about Jink. I've thought before that giving Stealth to Ravenwing would be similar-- speeders would get a 3+ when flat out and bikes would get a 2+... Plus it fits their recon aspect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Why not a rule that lets our Outflanking forces immediately come in on the table edge we want them to, in a fashion similar to Deathwing assault? That would be another "We're good at tactics" concept rule for us. This is probably 1 of the best idea's for a special rule for us I've read thus far. Bringing back the jink roll is also, as stated here needs a come back. My biggest pet peeve is our lack of CC marines. Our assault sqds are bland and unless we run DW, or super pricey vets in large numbers we're better off skipping CC. IMO. A 1 sqd DA only would be a thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Be warned: no fluff is backing this up, its just a straight answer to the OP... "what coulde we have to make us unique". Although the "sit back and take the punishment" is a valid mindset, it doesn't quite fit the "tactical genius" idea. I'd rather be as tough as we are now (which is ok, but nothing OTT) but provoke people building lists across the FOC, getting benefits from mixing roles. Right now, most of our lists are quite flat in the sense that in order to be competitive, you have to go into a solid colour (be it DW or RW). The only sinergy you get are the bikes with homers (which nobody uses because it means having the bikes out in the open for the terminators to land safely)... and that is about it. Ideas that I think would work and wouldn't be too game-breaking: 1.- "We do our stuff: reconosance" (sp?). Basically, before the game, our scouts/RW have done their homework and hidden 1d3 teleporting homers in as many scenary elements (similar as the Ymgarl stealers). You write down what buildings you choose and you can use them to DS your termies. 2.- "In and out" Outflanking units may head towards an edge of the board and be placed again into reserves. Next turn you can roll for them to come in with the normal outflanking rules. While this might seem odd, it would blend nicely in the idea of hit and run, ambushing and basically going in, striking and running away to another part of the combat. This would allow more list mixing, since most double-wing players would reduce their bike count and with the free points get either Green armour or terminators. 3.- "Drop and hit" A DS unit may assault the turn they land. Just like it was in 4th ed. 4.- "Consolidate into combat" Since TDA can't pursue when winning a combat, and they roll 1d6 to consolidate, being able to go into ANOTHER combat would not be so broken. I could think of more, but the main idea of all of them is... keep moving, don't stop, hit and get going; as opposed to "big phalanx, bear the grunt, charge and spend turns in combat" Obviously, if EVERYTHING is given to EVERYBODY, the combos would be :D: But allowing them through elite IC (in the line of sang priests or IG councils) would probably give a major makeover to the DA without giving them unique units (as in TWC, SR) but more in the actual game style. One can dream :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2689509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieghammer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I would like to see a Helios, i think it is called so? Landraider with demolishercannon on front! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I would like to see a Helios, i think it is called so?Landraider with demolishercannon on front! Helios is whirlwind model. Aries is the one you're thinking of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Good point, and likewise, I'm quite happy with the rules. But It just doesn't feel like we're special enough... Though I admit, we have the best fluff ever. We aren't Blood thirsty vampires, or howling vikings-in-space. Nor even black-and-white zealous pandas. We're the Bad guys that get to be Good! :lol: I thougth we where the good guys who got bad, then does everything not to be bad by doing bad..... Thats quite unique.... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paeniteo Angelus Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Be warned: no fluff is backing this up, its just a straight answer to the OP... "what coulde we have to make us unique". Although the "sit back and take the punishment" is a valid mindset, it doesn't quite fit the "tactical genius" idea. I'd rather be as tough as we are now (which is ok, but nothing OTT) but provoke people building lists across the FOC, getting benefits from mixing roles. Right now, most of our lists are quite flat in the sense that in order to be competitive, you have to go into a solid colour (be it DW or RW). The only sinergy you get are the bikes with homers (which nobody uses because it means having the bikes out in the open for the terminators to land safely)... and that is about it. Ideas that I think would work and wouldn't be too game-breaking: 1.- "We do our stuff: reconosance" (sp?). Basically, before the game, our scouts/RW have done their homework and hidden 1d3 teleporting homers in as many scenary elements (similar as the Ymgarl stealers). You write down what buildings you choose and you can use them to DS your termies. 2.- "In and out" Outflanking units may head towards an edge of the board and be placed again into reserves. Next turn you can roll for them to come in with the normal outflanking rules. While this might seem odd, it would blend nicely in the idea of hit and run, ambushing and basically going in, striking and running away to another part of the combat. This would allow more list mixing, since most double-wing players would reduce their bike count and with the free points get either Green armour or terminators. 3.- "Drop and hit" A DS unit may assault the turn they land. Just like it was in 4th ed. 4.- "Consolidate into combat" Since TDA can't pursue when winning a combat, and they roll 1d6 to consolidate, being able to go into ANOTHER combat would not be so broken. I could think of more, but the main idea of all of them is... keep moving, don't stop, hit and get going; as opposed to "big phalanx, bear the grunt, charge and spend turns in combat" Obviously, if EVERYTHING is given to EVERYBODY, the combos would be :tu:: But allowing them through elite IC (in the line of sang priests or IG councils) would probably give a major makeover to the DA without giving them unique units (as in TWC, SR) but more in the actual game style. One can dream ;) 1) Would be quite interesting to see, but would it be that the homer extends 6" form the scenery, or that any deep striking into the scenery doesn't scatter? In the case of the latter one could say that the terminators do not suffer dangerous terrain when deep striking with the homer. IMO that would make it much easier for the DW to take/contest points. ;) 2) Not unheard of, would be in effect similar to the mawloc's ability to re-burrow. 3) Just... just amazing. That would make me a happy man. ;) 4) Interesting, though I personally favour 3. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 3.- "Drop and hit" A DS unit may assault the turn they land. Just like it was in 4th ed. So basically Heroic Intervention to Deep Striking units? That'd have to cost some hefty points or it'd be straight broken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 These quick suggestions were simply examples of how you can change a lot the game style of a codex without giving it new models/units. Again, the easiest way to limit the broken-ness is to go the IC way. For example, the drop and hit, you can only do with the unit attached to an IC (hence only 1 unit per list). I'd stay away from simply bulking up the current units (ie DW with 2W, 3A and Ini5 and FC... you get the idea) and more into the sinergy theme: if you balance and use all of the codex, you can get wicked possibilities... Peolpe tend to think "across the list", so when we read a suggestion, many think of spamming and bending the idea... which is fine, but not the idea of the suggestions above. Sigh...if only I could get 1 afternoon of chit chatting with the rules development team for our codex... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 3.- "Drop and hit" A DS unit may assault the turn they land. Just like it was in 4th ed. So basically Heroic Intervention to Deep Striking units? That'd have to cost some hefty points or it'd be straight broken. I'm sitting her looking at the stats of a UM Assault Sqd compared to a UM Vanguard Vet Sqd. 100 vs. 125. Really... 25 points for 5x Vet Stats Heroic Intervention and wargear upgrades!!! Hmmmmm,,, Seems as though the Deathwing could pay 10 points for a 5x Sqd 2x each and still be balanced. Since DW is usually at I1 with a preponderance of PF's and TH/SS. Now I will have to admit that I would prefer to play my TLC's in that role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boltergeist Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm sitting her looking at the stats of a UM Assault Sqd compared to a UM Vanguard Vet Sqd. 100 vs. 125. Really... 25 points for 5x Vet Stats Heroic Intervention and wargear upgrades!!! Hmmmmm,,, Seems as though the Deathwing could pay 10 points for a 5x Sqd 2x each and still be balanced. Since DW is usually at I1 with a preponderance of PF's and TH/SS. Now I will have to admit that I would prefer to play my TLC's in that role. I don't have the book in front of me but I believe the standard assault squad comes with jump packs and the vanguard do not-- it's a separate upgrade. The DS+Assault idea isn't bad, just rough when combined with teleport homers. If it was linked to an IC, that means you have a crunch squad AND an IC assaulting when they come in... Not saying it wouldn't work, but would definitely need playtesting. As a semi related aside, do DW come with teleport homers in their armor? If not, you'd think they would, or hell, one guy per squad with a locator beacon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 They don't... why would they, since they have already landed? And if you're thinking about "backup"... they can use the same system the first squad used ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 As a semi related aside, do DW come with teleport homers in their armor? If not, you'd think they would, or hell, one guy per squad with a locator beacon. I can't understand why Deathwing don't carry teleport homers in each squad - it would give the option of either using bikes to safely land with all squads or trying your luck with the first sqaud(s) and then using their homer to assist later drops (and thereby getting rid of the need to bring the bikes at all). It also doesn't make much sense to the background for Deathwing not to have any teleport homers, "Hey, Belial, have we got any of those teleport homers kicking about? I just thought perhaps when we strike the objective we can call the rest of the guys in... we gave them all to the Ravenwing? Oh, OK..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Screw squad - prior to third edition every suit of Imperial TDA had a built in Teleport Homer! Its how they'd get teleported out again rather than having to be blown to smithereens when whatever ship/ammo dump/defence installation they'd just attacked went up or how they'd avoid running out of ammo and being overwhelmed after teleporting into the middle of an enemy army and killing the general.. Addendum: the only 'unique' thing you can really give them with any precedent is jetbikes - yes it goes against the current canon about Sammael's being the only one, but so did giving Sammael one when he'd been using a speeder for 2 editions. Other than that your just talking about tweaking regular units and thats not really unique. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2690979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kebabyuchenko Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Make us unique? Entire Tactical squads armed with PLASMA GUNS! Mwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha I LOVE Plasma! Kebabyuchenko xxx Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2691194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Developing new rules to enable radical tactical changes is quite unique... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2691196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 As a semi related aside, do DW come with teleport homers in their armor? If not, you'd think they would, or hell, one guy per squad with a locator beacon. I can't understand why Deathwing don't carry teleport homers in each squad - it would give the option of either using bikes to safely land with all squads or trying your luck with the first sqaud(s) and then using their homer to assist later drops (and thereby getting rid of the need to bring the bikes at all). It also doesn't make much sense to the background for Deathwing not to have any teleport homers, "Hey, Belial, have we got any of those teleport homers kicking about? I just thought perhaps when we strike the objective we can call the rest of the guys in... we gave them all to the Ravenwing? Oh, OK..." The C:DA V4 editor forgot to cut and paste the option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2691303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Hail Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Personaly i hope we keep our two chaplins and get a few indepent chaps back (hint, hint GW). Make the interogator chaplin a beast as he sould be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2691355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm sitting her looking at the stats of a UM Assault Sqd compared to a UM Vanguard Vet Sqd. 100 vs. 125. Really... 25 points for 5x Vet Stats Heroic Intervention and wargear upgrades!!! Hmmmmm,,, Thats funny because sitting here looking at the Codex a Vanguard Veteran Squad that can deep strike (and therefore actually use Heroic Intervention) is 175 points not 125... Seems as though the Deathwing could pay 10 points for a 5x Sqd 2x each and still be balanced. Since DW is usually at I1 with a preponderance of PF's and TH/SS. Now I will have to admit that I would prefer to play my TLC's in that role. Are seriously suggesting that anybody in their right mind that had DW with Heroic Intervention wouldn't load out the majority with TLCs and the odd CML for good measure? You'd be silly not to. Thats without even taking into consideration the fact that those Terminators happen to 2+/5++ and so are far more hardy than those 3+ Vanguard and so are more likely to survive in melee even at I1. Then theres always the TH+SS mix you mention, with a 2+/3++ even at I1 they've got an even better chance of surviving to hit back. Still think they'd be balanced paying bare minimum for it? If it was tied to a Special Character or IC that would make a difference, but it'd still need to be balanced either in that characters cost or with some further downside. Its just too good a benefit otherwise (no shooting with a full LC equipped squad in exchange for being able to assault after DS, ok :lol: ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2691487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 What have the DA ever had that was particularly unique? They had the Ravenwing and Deathwing in 3e, and the occasional special rule (and characters), but really the DA have always been somewhat less unique than the SW and BA. Which has also meant they're more subtle in their presentation, but it's two-edged. I suspect the next DA codex will likely end up picking some aspects of the DA and hammering them some more. I would be very unsurprised if they ended up becoming the Shootymarines. An emphasis on stealth, fighting Chaos, capturing enemies, torture, knightliness, or monkliness are also possibilities, as well as them becoming the anti-Space Wolves (which would likely focus on professionalism, very few individuals who exert serious control over their troops, and a slight focus on shooting elements and maneuver as opposed to CC). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224741-what-could-we-have-to-make-us-unique/page/2/#findComment-2691495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.