What could we have to make us unique?

[pueriexdeus]

I'm sitting her looking at the stats of a UM Assault Sqd compared to a UM Vanguard Vet Sqd. 100 vs. 125. Really...

 

25 points for 5x Vet Stats Heroic Intervention and wargear upgrades!!! Hmmmmm,,,

Thats funny because sitting here looking at the Codex a Vanguard Veteran Squad that can deep strike (and therefore actually use Heroic Intervention) is 175 points not 125...

 

Seems as though the Deathwing could pay 10 points for a 5x Sqd 2x each and still be balanced. Since DW is usually at I1 with a preponderance of PF's and TH/SS. Now I will have to admit that I would prefer to play my TLC's in that role.

Are seriously suggesting that anybody in their right mind that had DW with Heroic Intervention wouldn't load out the majority with TLCs and the odd CML for good measure? You'd be silly not to.

 

Thats without even taking into consideration the fact that those Terminators happen to 2+/5++ and so are far more hardy than those 3+ Vanguard and so are more likely to survive in melee even at I1. Then theres always the TH+SS mix you mention, with a 2+/3++ even at I1 they've got an even better chance of surviving to hit back.

 

Still think they'd be balanced paying bare minimum for it?

 

If it was tied to a Special Character or IC that would make a difference, but it'd still need to be balanced either in that characters cost or with some further downside. Its just too good a benefit otherwise (no shooting with a full LC equipped squad in exchange for being able to assault after DS, ok :lol: ).

I finally had time to sit down and compare a 5x DW Vs. 5X Vanguard, of note the 125 is without JP's, as you mention 175 is with JP's.

 

Doing a simple 3X TH/SS & 2X TLC on each brings the DW to 235 and the VV to 355 drop the JP's and put them in a DP and the VV comes in at 15 points cheaper. Still pricey.

 

Looking closer, the point discrepancy is generated simply because DW gets the weapons free and VV are paying for theirs. Put the VV back to their stock configuration and they come in 65 points cheaper than DW.

 

I still think 10 points a Sqd would be reasonable. Balance wise with the preponderance of cover we will probably be charging into it and without Grenades fight at I1, if we can even make the charge on a move through cover roll.

 

So the Grenade issue and moving through cover pretty much seems as though it'll balance a DW Heroic Intervention.

[The Shadow Guard]

What we need:

 

A few simple,uncomplicated rule which will make the army and the player nebehave like the unforgiven would. ;) What exactly they are has been the subject of years of arguments, discussion, conversations and closed/admined threads ;)

 

But, we'll make do with anything that we're given and make the best of it, and never give up as we should never do!!

 

SG

[Valkyrion]

They could have a rule where you have to roll a D6 at the start of every turn and on the roll of a one you must pack up your stuff and move to another to location to play because you have heard rumours of the fallen...thats fluffy....

[Tanhausen]

They could have a rule where you have to roll a D6 at the start of every turn and on the roll of a one you must pack up your stuff and move to another to location to play because you have heard rumours of the fallen...thats fluffy....

 

*** stiffling laughter and drawing odd looks at the office ***

[Zincite]

They could have a rule where you have to roll a D6 at the start of every turn and on the roll of a one you must pack up your stuff; then stomp on all your opponent's models; punch him in the face; and blow up the building to remove witnesses, then move to another to location to play because you have heard rumours of the fallen...thats fluffy....

 

Fixed it for you...

 

2.- "In and out"

 

Outflanking units may head towards an edge of the board and be placed again into reserves. Next turn you can roll for them to come in with the normal outflanking rules.

 

While this might seem odd, it would blend nicely in the idea of hit and run, ambushing and basically going in, striking and running away to another part of the combat.

 

This would allow more list mixing, since most double-wing players would reduce their bike count and with the free points get either Green armour or terminators.

 

I like this, very much so. And like before said, it's been done before.

 

'Jink' would be good to have again, but it'd have to be Refluffed. The idea of DA jinking their bikes side-to-side just seems silly, when I think of it I can't get this image of a Marine shouting 'Look at what I can do guys!,' just saying they're very good at knowing when to dodge is fine surely?

[A_POINTED_STICK]

Sammael Gets a Flying Landraider. Not a Speeder comparable to a landraider, but the sort of thing only the Custodes would have had until Lion pointed and told Daddy "FIRST LEGION! IT'S MINE!"

 

Instead of giving him the last jetbike lets make the "Your Storm Raven can kiss my..." his uber mount (for a command squad). Then bring back Jetbikes for the Ravenwing. Unlike the disaster of Thunderwolf cavalry Jetbikes are 1. Awesome. 2. Established in old fluff. 3. Impossible to make models of.

 

So make Ravenwing the "Flying Circus" list. Flying Landraider, Landspeeders, and Jet Cycles. If They're all skimmers mixed squads will actually work. Leave regular bikes and attack bikes as the equivalent for the battle and reserve companies. Instead of Jinking you'll have Turboboosting which will be plenty.

 

I think that alone sorting out the raven wing makes them 5th edition worthy.

[MadDoc]

I finally had time to sit down and compare a 5x DW Vs. 5X Vanguard, of note the 125 is without JP's, as you mention 175 is with JP's.

 

Doing a simple 3X TH/SS & 2X TLC on each brings the DW to 235 and the VV to 355 drop the JP's and put them in a DP and the VV comes in at 15 points cheaper. Still pricey.

 

Looking closer, the point discrepancy is generated simply because DW gets the weapons free and VV are paying for theirs. Put the VV back to their stock configuration and they come in 65 points cheaper than DW.

 

I still think 10 points a Sqd would be reasonable. Balance wise with the preponderance of cover we will probably be charging into it and without Grenades fight at I1, if we can even make the charge on a move through cover roll.

 

So the Grenade issue and moving through cover pretty much seems as though it'll balance a DW Heroic Intervention.

None of which takes into account how much more survivable in close combat a 2+/5++(potentially 2+/3++) unit is compared to a 3+ unit. 2+/5++ (or 2+/3++ which costs no extra points) means that even at I1 the DW Terminators are going to have a much better shot at surviving until they get to hit back (unless they're fighting a power weapon heavy unit they're basic 2+ alone makes them more survivable).

 

All of which is before even taking into consideration that they won't always be charging into cover nor do they have to be equipped with weapons that force them to strike at I1, for no additional cost the entire squad can be given lightning claws meaning not only are they now striking in Initiative order with power weapons that let them re-roll failed rolls to wound, they also gain an additional attack (3 attacks each, 4 each on the charge).

 

10 points seems seriously on the light side when you take any of that into consideration.

[Paeniteo Angelus]

Sammael Gets a Flying Landraider. Not a Speeder comparable to a landraider, but the sort of thing only the Custodes would have had until Lion pointed and told Daddy "FIRST LEGION! IT'S MINE!"

 

Instead of giving him the last jetbike lets make the "Your Storm Raven can kiss my..." his uber mount (for a command squad). Then bring back Jetbikes for the Ravenwing. Unlike the disaster of Thunderwolf cavalry Jetbikes are 1. Awesome. 2. Established in old fluff. 3. Impossible to make models of.

 

So make Ravenwing the "Flying Circus" list. Flying Landraider, Landspeeders, and Jet Cycles. If They're all skimmers mixed squads will actually work. Leave regular bikes and attack bikes as the equivalent for the battle and reserve companies. Instead of Jinking you'll have Turboboosting which will be plenty.

 

I think that alone sorting out the raven wing makes them 5th edition worthy.

 

1) That dibs thing is just too funny. :drool:

 

2) Would be amazing to see an army outside of the eldars to have jetbikes. As for the fluff to that, well they ARE the RAVENWING so my best guess would be that unlike every other marine orginization they would actually care for their ancient bike techs *one of the duties of the watchers and not the techmarines?* (hence also the hinted 100 suits of TDA). Oh and better yet, it's much easier to see the ravenwing using jetbikes as opposed to regular ones to close on the Fallen for the DW, 'cause not only would it make it easier to navigate terrain and dodge bullets, but it lets them keep pace and stay with their speeder support.

 

3) It would make GW so much money to have every DA ravenwing buying the new models, so they need to do it. ;)

[pueriexdeus]

I finally had time to sit down and compare a 5x DW Vs. 5X Vanguard, of note the 125 is without JP's, as you mention 175 is with JP's.

 

Doing a simple 3X TH/SS & 2X TLC on each brings the DW to 235 and the VV to 355 drop the JP's and put them in a DP and the VV comes in at 15 points cheaper. Still pricey.

 

Looking closer, the point discrepancy is generated simply because DW gets the weapons free and VV are paying for theirs. Put the VV back to their stock configuration and they come in 65 points cheaper than DW.

 

I still think 10 points a Sqd would be reasonable. Balance wise with the preponderance of cover we will probably be charging into it and without Grenades fight at I1, if we can even make the charge on a move through cover roll.

 

So the Grenade issue and moving through cover pretty much seems as though it'll balance a DW Heroic Intervention.

None of which takes into account how much more survivable in close combat a 2+/5++(potentially 2+/3++) unit is compared to a 3+ unit. 2+/5++ (or 2+/3++ which costs no extra points) means that even at I1 the DW Terminators are going to have a much better shot at surviving until they get to hit back (unless they're fighting a power weapon heavy unit they're basic 2+ alone makes them more survivable).

 

All of which is before even taking into consideration that they won't always be charging into cover nor do they have to be equipped with weapons that force them to strike at I1, for no additional cost the entire squad can be given lightning claws meaning not only are they now striking in Initiative order with power weapons that let them re-roll failed rolls to wound, they also gain an additional attack (3 attacks each, 4 each on the charge).

 

10 points seems seriously on the light side when you take any of that into consideration.

Yes you are right, I am not taking into account the overall survivability of the unit in general. I am taking into account how I play my Deathwing with DWA, and the units I pit them against here where I play 40K.

 

I use my Deathwing and DWA as a first strike capability against the Head of my opponent, forget the body. Now I have no idea of how you play nor who your opponents are. But mine are almost always in cover, with a high amount of power weapons, and I am usually outnumbered 2 or 3 too one.

 

I'll concur that if I was just dropping into an open field against a Gretchen screen, on a flank of Flashlight traitor guards, or even in the face of a maneuvering SM Sqd, then you argument would hold water. But thats not how I deploy my DW, I stick them in the face of the opponents HQ and Elite entourage, as fast as possible. And statistically they are always in cover, and throwing 30/45 dice before I can make my first throw.

 

Now I am working on a new Belial/Command Squad build, I have played this unit (different figures) before. Combined they will be 3X TLC's, 3X TH/SS, Apoth Standard Bearer, and CML. On a good day they will only have to accept 30 dice on their charge and the three SS & FNP will still loose two or three DW immediately before they can fight back. In retrospect thats worse than standing and taking fire first before I can charge (one or two losses), been there and done that also. But with HE I'll at least have all my figures in the melee. So, no 10 points a squad is not unreasonable.

 

Now this conversation has me thinking that a re-introduction of the V2 Terminator auxiliary grenade launcher might be a DW upgrade, or allowing the CML to act as offensive grenades in an assault could be a DW option.

 

Play testing over a period of time can identify the pros and cons on both sides. As I said I have no idea of the opponents you play against or your play style. But I do know mine, over inflating the cost of HE based on assumed (math hammer) survivability will just hamper the ability to put DW Troops on the table.

[Bryan Blaire]

How would the granting of Heroic Intervention to DW units jive with the fluff that says there is a period of disorientation after teleportation similar to that of a ship coming out of the Warp? I believe that is mentioned in the novelette compilation in the HH series by Chapter Commander Astelan in the Dark Angels story. If that is sort of the accepted view of what happens, then that seems to be a fluff point against the DW having Heroic Intervention. Now, if the fluff were re-written to state something like "The Deathwing have done this so many times they can clear their minds and refocus almost instantly after teleportation and thus are able to..." This could possibly happen in something like the Codex Unforgiven project, but it isn't the official story on how I works until GW says it can work that way.

[pueriexdeus]

How would the granting of Heroic Intervention to DW units jive with the fluff that says there is a period of disorientation after teleportation similar to that of a ship coming out of the Warp? I believe that is mentioned in the novelette compilation in the HH series by Chapter Commander Astelan in the Dark Angels story. If that is sort of the accepted view of what happens, then that seems to be a fluff point against the DW having Heroic Intervention. Now, if the fluff were re-written to state something like "The Deathwing have done this so many times they can clear their minds and refocus almost instantly after teleportation and thus are able to..." This could possibly happen in something like the Codex Unforgiven project, but it isn't the official story on how I works until GW says it can work that way.

I have been in the game long enough to know that GW cant/wont keep its story straight year to year.

 

In the latest; Purging of Kadillus, not only do the DW w/Belial (in PA) assault immediately after a teleport, they do it into cover. This could be a good unlock option???

[MadDoc]

How would the granting of Heroic Intervention to DW units jive with the fluff that says there is a period of disorientation after teleportation similar to that of a ship coming out of the Warp?

Put simply it wouldn't. Regardless of any protestations that GW change their background to suit their needs with startingly regularity, the simple fact of the matter is it would not only not fit in this specific instance but it also wouldn't mesh with the wider background. If its so readily doable how is it that the GK, with their far greater experience at Teleporter assaults (its almost their exclusive means of deployment), don't have Heroic Intervention (beyond the obvious balance considerations)?

 

Enough of this though, I think we've dragged the thread close enough to being derailed quite enough already. I think its quite clear what peoples postions on Heroic Intervention for DW are, some want it as a dirt cheap upgrade to make DW uber with minimal to no drawbacks, some would prefer things to have balance.

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

Due to the inherent nature of hunting the fallen, I have always thought that letting DA Vet's take sniper rifle's may be quite fluffy, and giving them infiltrate as well. Of course it would make them slightly similair to Chaos Vet squad's, but never mind ^_^

Some form of new vehicle, or a stormraven that can carry lot's of Temr's would be nice.

The Mortis would make for a very nice dread variant, although I think a Chaplin version would be just as good!

And bringing the stat line's of our guy's into line with at least the one's in C:SM would be the best, that and the point cost's of course!

[Firepower]

I'd like to see DA get Interrogator Chaplains which remove Feel No Pain from any unit they engage in close combat, thanks to their toys like the Blades of Reason (if I'm remembering that name correctly- the thing that really, really hurts). Sort of like the antithesis of Sanguinary Priests. Other than that, certain special Banners are the only things which I really remember as being a unique(ish) thing to DA. You guys just aren't all that special it seems <_<

[Brother iKon]

Interrogator Chaplains which remove Feel No Pain from any unit they engage in close combat, thanks to their toys like the Blades of Reason

 

LOVE IT!!

that has to be perfect for Asmodi special charicter if he makes a return to the game

[Tanhausen]

I also like the idea of removing FnP... but tying it also to the Blades of Reason and the comeback of Asmodai.

[Son of Rawl]

Wasnt there a rule in the last codex that if you kill a selected enemy IC you gain a significant boost in victory points. That would be cool to see a come back, that or you gain prefered enemy against a random IC due to him having info on the fallen and must be captured

[pueriexdeus]

Wasnt there a rule in the last codex that if you kill a selected enemy IC you gain a significant boost in victory points. That would be cool to see a come back, that or you gain prefered enemy against a random IC due to him having info on the fallen and must be captured

Just off the top of my head, think the Blades of reason if on the table allowed a die roll to award x# extra VP's.

 

Prefered enemy does not ring a bell, but if I'm not confusing it with the Cypher rule, the DA forces would have to move toward the designated IC each movement phase.

[Alys Dwr]

quick idea as my eye lids are propped up with match sticks:

 

Frag grenade equipped Deathwing. Subtle, unique and useful.

 

Al

[Firepower]

LOVE IT!!

that has to be perfect for Asmodi special charicter if he makes a return to the game

 

I also like the idea of removing FnP... but tying it also to the Blades of Reason and the comeback of Asmodai.

 

Wow...you know what's sad? When I first started getting into 40k as a kid my most influential/read book was Angels of Death, and frankly Asmodai was the only character from the DA that really appealed to me (partially because of that interrogation scene that took up a page). The sad part though is that I've been so out of touch with the DA since (aside from borrowing bitz for my Templars) that I didn't even know Asmodai was missing from your guys' current codex. What the hell happened there?

[Tanhausen]

I think GW pulled the chappy-theme from us towards the templars, as a more choppy army.

 

Besides... the model was ok for the old times, but now, I think it would need a serious revamp (as in a new model).

 

I've always liked the concept of the Black pearls and the Blade of Reason... a real shame.

[SillyDreadnought]

I think GW pulled the chappy-theme from us towards the templars, as a more choppy army.

 

Besides... the model was ok for the old times, but now, I think it would need a serious revamp (as in a new model).

 

I've always liked the concept of the Black pearls and the Blade of Reason... a real shame.

 

If Asmodai came back, he'd probably get a recast in a similiar style to Lemartes, an equally old chaplain cast that got redone.

[Free Company]

I think the best way forward is to represent the ancient, legionlike nature of the Unforgiven. The obvious army wide rules are And They Shall Know No Fear and Combat Squads, but a couple Dark Angels specific rules might be Hunt for the Fallen: a Ravenwing rule that gives them all Scout and Skilled Rider, Angels of Death: the Deathwing rule that allows for Deathwing Assault and Fearless, Lion's Resolve: something that allows us to auto pass morale/pinning checks when shot at, or about how we're especially hateful and mean? But one for each branch, I think that's important and in line with the other Marines' rules pages.

 

Special Characters/ named unit upgrades should be a split between combat and support -types; I'd like to see Asmodai, Naaman, and Sapphon in addition to the usual suspects.

 

If you take a Master (Company Captain equivalent) on a bike or in Terminator armour, unlock Ravenwing Squadrons/ Deathwing Terminators as Troops respectively (one of which may have a Standard bearer/ Apothecary). This makes sense and keeps the restriction of "burning" an HQ choice for these options in place. On the note of HQs we should bring back the special banners, obsidian swords (which should be Relic Blades but specifically one handed to allow for the additional attack and limmited to HQ choices and special characters), and blades of reason (some kind of LD penalty applied when the enemy loses a combat? I really liked the idea of negating FNP, but think that would be less open to abuse on a Chaplain special character, who might also have the Blades of Reason but probably not a jump pack - like Asmodai).

 

Keeping with wargear, and going back to the chapter's oldness - bring back Heresy era gear! I think the Dark Angels codex should be the "go-to" book for everyone looking to play a Pre-Heresy force. I'd like to see Deathwing Terminators able to exchange their Stormbolters for TL-Bolters (at no cost?), and select a range of combi-weapons cheaply in addition to the mix-and-match deal we have now. I'd also like to see a return of the manportable Reaper Autocannon (both on Terminators and in Devestator squads). Yes this makes them super flexible, but as one of the iconic Unforgiven units they should have the kind of equipment options afforded to other armies' iconic units (Nobz, Wolf/ Sanguinary Guard, Trueborn, etc). I'm not sure if special jetbike riding Ravenwing squads are the way to go, but if Thunderwolf cavalry and Dreadknights are any indication it's entirely possible we'll see those. Rapier lasers and mole mortars are both throwback Techmarine options; the Mortis should have a sperate entry from regular Dreadnaughts, with their own rules/ options.

 

Oh boy, look at the time. I might post back with more ideas later.

[Zincite]

@Freecompany

I don't really like the idea of our codex being the 'Pre-heresy' army, that'd mean too many people would use our codex, without actually playing Dark Angels... Wait a second... *Beats indignant jealousy down*... Anyways, practically everything you said there was good, though there's a few things I dislike:

 

Hunt for the fallen

Like, it but only if both gamers agree to it before-hand

 

Reaper Auto-Cannons:

Lovely, and if we did get a new Deathwing kit (surely we will...) it'd be a cool component. But putting it on devastator squads seems, well, wrong. I just can't visualize DA holding them...

 

Jetbike squadrons:

No. No. No. Just, no.

 

Thoughts

 

Blades of reason. What about any one model Asmoidai wounds suffers instant death, and the whole unit said model is attached to is at -2 leadership? (Note the clever pinching of ideas)

 

If a DA unit takes 25% percent losses it passes it's leadership test, but may not move, run, assault (May fight back), count cover, or go to ground in the following turn. It gains Feel No Pain for the duration of that turn. It must fire at the unit that inflicted the most losses in that turn, or the nearest unit if that is not possible. After that turn common sense takes over, and the DA unit must take the leadership test at -2 (?) leadership

 

Improvements

 

Let Captains take orbital barrage, same as C:SM. I'd consider taking him then... (If just for the coolness)

 

Land Raider Redeemers, 'nuff said.

 

More options for Deathwing! (Company Champ? If just for the model?)

 

Let Veterans take such a Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, or some other sort of rare weapon.

 

Please feel free to dissect this. And please excuse my avatar, I'm going to make one from a pic of one of my models. Someday. :cuss

[Zeruel]

I'm a little late to this but these are a few ideas I've toyed with in the past

 

- Add a proper command squad for Deathwing and Ravenwing. Possibly allow the Ravenwing Command Squad to be mounted on Jetbikes. I like the idea of the Jetbikes being rare and wouldn't want to see it overdone with Ravenwing but it would be cool for a single command squad in the army to have them. Not to mention with units like Sanguinary Guard it wouldn't surprise me to see something like this in our codex. That one single unit that really stands out form everyone else.

 

- Give us the Mortis Dreadnought, goes without saying I guess but I'm saying it anyways.

 

- I like the whole idea of us being stubborn and holding ground but we're also a more tactical army than stubbornly holding still when it would be better to move. I personally think a good way to represent this and not being tactically debilitating is by giving us some kind of special rule to be Stubborn or whatever other appropriate rule when holding or contesting objectives. It would show our unwillingness to yield in defense but not shoe horn us into the army that stubbornly does stupid things because we're stubborn.

 

- More leadership based special rules to go along with our Company Commanders. I really, really hope we keep Rites of Battle but maybe an ability for all units within so many inches or just the unit a Company Master has joined that allows them to choose to automatically pass or fail any leadership tests. I'm no rules developer and I'm not saying this is the best way to do it, I'd just like to see the Company Masters exert some kind of tactical depth instead of just being an ordinary close combat character like every other HQ. I'm not saying they should be any less effective in combat than any old Captain but I'd like them to be useful for more than just punching something in the face. Maybe even a rule more in line with the Grey Knights Grand Masters giving out certain special rules to choice units at the start of the game. I think that would reflect us perfectly. Even if that rule was just for Azrael I'd be more than pleased.