Playtesting the Codex: Final Impressions

[Ashe Darke]

REMEMBERED IT! What does the Brotherhood Banner do??? full description if possible please :D

 

Grants an extra attack to all members in the squad, and the squad automatically passes the Psychic test to activate their force weapons (i.e., Instant Death for all wounds caused).

 

they still have to fail their invuln saves though, its not a auto death when a wound is caused - at least i think so, dont have my book with me at work.

And of course you can't use Hammer Hand AND the Banner unless you have Thawn or Psychic Mastery Lvl 2 IC in the unit.

[Custodian Athiair]

REMEMBERED IT! What does the Brotherhood Banner do??? full description if possible please :)

 

Grants an extra attack to all members in the squad, and the squad automatically passes the Psychic test to activate their force weapons (i.e., Instant Death for all wounds caused).

 

they still have to fail their invuln saves though, its not a auto death when a wound is caused - at least i think so, dont have my book with me at work.

And of course you can't use Hammer Hand AND the Banner unless you have Thawn or Psychic Mastery Lvl 2 IC in the unit.

 

why not?

 

Athiair :)

[Ashe Darke]

Surely using your force sword is using a power, as is Hammer Hand. With only one power per turn it looks to me like it's one or the other. Auto-passing doesn't give you an extra power per turn. If you don't do Hammer Hand then sure you can use the Banner to auto-pass, but you can't auto-pass a test you can't take.

[alex567]

Surely using your force sword is using a power, as is Hammer Hand. With only one power per turn it looks to me like it's one or the other. Auto-passing doesn't give you an extra power per turn. If you don't do Hammer Hand then sure you can use the Banner to auto-pass, but you can't auto-pass a test you can't take.

 

I thought this would have been obvious?

[Resv]

Surely using your force sword is using a power, as is Hammer Hand. With only one power per turn it looks to me like it's one or the other. Auto-passing doesn't give you an extra power per turn. If you don't do Hammer Hand then sure you can use the Banner to auto-pass, but you can't auto-pass a test you can't take.

 

This is the exact reason that I like to take Rad-Grenades on my GM when he is running with Terminators. I know they aren't a prefect replacement for Hammer Hand but it frees your Force Weapon test.

[grimz]

I am going to need to test Psychostroke vs Rad, my friends are currently freaking out over Psychstroke grenades

[HERO]

I am going to need to test Psychostroke vs Rad, my friends are currently freaking out over Psychstroke grenades

 

What's the rationale?

[Marmande]

It's new.

[Rinion]

I'm just glad they kept the descriptions from 2nd edition for the Psychstroke grenades!

[Shyft]

quick question regarding Paladins/Terminators: Is there a minimum squad size?

[Ashe Darke]

quick question regarding Paladins/Terminators: Is there a minimum squad size?

Paladins - 1

Terminators - 5

[Shyft]

okay cool means my hypothetical plan of taking GKGM + 4 Paladins + a squad of 5 GKTs as-troops is possible. Means I can keep a squad of termies moving up the board on foot shooting psycannons or something, while my palies move up in a land raider to hit something. Or just deep strike. I dunno.

[Resv]

Alright time for Part Three, which might just be the last part of this whole deal. Before I start however I think I have to apologize for Part Two and the write up about the different troop units. I looked at them again while getting my notes in order to write this final bit and I realized that all of that post was not very well written. I was a bit pushed for time as I want to get all of my experiences out on these forums as quickly as I can. Why is that? Well, I have a bit of a leg up on the popular blog-o-sphere and forum-verse. For the first time I feel like I have a solid contribution that I can make to the 40k online world and I don't want to miss out on that chance.

 

Fast Attack

 

Interceptor Squad

The name is just great isn't it. It sounds like an 80's cop drama doesn't it. I got to watch these guys in action and I was rather impressed with them. I know that they have the exact same stats as regular Gray Knights but being able to move 12 inches a turn helps with one of the few things I don't like about Codex: Gray Knights. That is speed. I have said before that the new codex is akin to playing a Delta Force/SAS like army. Gray Knights are surgical in their execution. As the saying goes, the Imperial Guard is the Hammer of the Emperor and the Space Marines are the tip of the Emperor's Spear. Then the Gray Knights are the Emperor's Dagger in the back. That is where Interceptor Squads come in, they can get around behind your enemy or on your opponent's flanks. The 30 inch shunt move is really hard to imagine if you haven't used it yet. When we used these guys we tried out both Psycannons and Incinerators and found that both work well but it really comes down to what you want these guys to accomplish. I know people have said it a lot but using these guys as late game objective grabbers works wonders but really we found them to be much better as a harassment unit gunning for Long Fangs or other back field support units. What makes them brilliant is if you can get them into position on the same turn your Terminators Deep Strike creating two fronts for your enemy. We used these guys in small units of 5 with a Psycannon and found that as a shooting unit they worked pretty well.

 

Heavy Support

 

Nemesis Dread Knight

This thing is big. We assembled the model and it is easily as tall as a Flying Stand. Before we go any further talking about this unit I have to stress this. You won't really be able to get cover for it so understand that every anti-tank gun your opponent has will have a clear shot at this monster. Beyond this, I really wasn't impressed with the NDK. You would expect it to be super tough and be able to wade into battle but it isn't really suited for this. What it is good at is killing vehicles and transports in close combat. When it comes to hand to hand with infantry this guy is about on par with a Dreadnought but at least with a Dreadnought you have to roll a 6 to hit it . Then we come to the ranged weapon options which are very expensive for not very effective guns. The only one that we found to be of any use was the Heavy Incinerator which was fantastic at clearing out enemy hordes. Then there is the one upgrade I think a Dread Knight should try to never be without, the personal teleporter. As I said above you have to see it in action to believe it. This upgrade makes this monster really dangerous to mechanized armies since you can get right up close to them early in the game while the rest of your army moves to engage. This also makes the NDK a fantastic contesting unit, not necessarily a scoring unit however. Drop him in on an objective your opponent has a holding unit on and let him go to town. He may not be the best unit in close combat but he will easily last a turn or two when engaged. Forcing your opponent to remove him might just buy you the breathing space to win. Like I have said before, keep him cheap if you can limiting to one or two upgrades so he wont eat up points from the rest of your army.

 

Dreadnoughts

A personal favorite unit of mine that I really never get to take, Dreadnoughts have again appeared to be a best buy. The Psy-Rifle Dread (I'm not going to call it a "Psyfle Dread" because that sounds silly and these guys are NOT silly) fills a fantastic role as long range fire support. I should say that Gray Knights do not lack anti-tank, they have access to it in spades, what they do lack is long range anti-tank. That one little strength from taking Psybolt Ammo makes it a difference, believe you me. Think of it this way, instead of shooting two twin-linked auto cannons, you are now shooting two twin-linked missile launchers. One of these guys become like a devastator squad. Alternatively, a Dreadnought with a Psy-Assault Cannon makes an exellent close range support unit but his gun is no better than a regular Psycannon on a Terminator. He does however pack a Nemesis Doom Fist which the Dread can use as a force weapon since he is a Psyker. Another boon to Dreadnoughts is Reinforced Aegis which adds some much needed Psychic Defense in a 12 inch radius around him. If I remember correctly this works on any friendly unit not just infantry! Lastly, with Fortitude, Dreadnoughts become very hard to stop so you know you can rely on their fire support just about every turn.

 

I still have yet to try Purgation Squads so I won't comment on them yet.

 

So there you have it. My unit for unit break down of everything I have had a chance to play with so far.

 

Gray Knights are very strong and can stand toe to toe with any army in the game. They have some faults though, like long range shooting, that bring them down to earth. Not to mention survivability. It has already been mentioned that Gray Knights will suffer at the hands of powerful low AP shooting and this is completely and utterly true. Gray Knights overcome this by creating openings to get directly into the fight as fast a possible using Scout Moves, Servo Skulls, Shunt Moves, or regular Deep Striking. When I first sat down with the real codex I couldn't help but smile at how fun this army is going to be. Not overpowered, but fun to play.

 

It is also going to take more than an internet list to really make this army deadly, it seems that Gray Knight armies will profit most from a clever general. This is why I like the book and sort of dislike it at the same time. I don't think of myself as a clever player so in a way I know that I can't yet exploit all of the nuances I have seen in Codex: Gray Knights so far. This is also my caution to all of the players out there that are looking to jump on this codex since it is all "uber" and junk. This codex shares a lot with the Dark Eldar book in the sense that it isn't as nearly as forgiving as Space Wolves or Blood Angels. In a game where Space Marines are always out numbered, Gray Knights are even more so and you will feel every loss. Which is part of the reason I have been saying keep your units cheap and be mindful of where you spend your points. Many upgrades are just gravy or whip cream, something you just add to the top of an already awesome foundation. It is easy to forget just how great your basic gear is when you look at all of the available options. Do you really need Psybolt Ammo and Master Crafted Daemon Hammers for every Gray Knight squad? No, you really don't. I'm not saying that it they aren't powerful options to have, but perhaps it is better to spend those points on more bodies, or making sure every unit has transportation. Trust me when I say that those little upgrades add up fast.

 

I don't think there is much else to add right now. I'm thinking about doing a part three to talk about the advantages and disadvantages I noticed when playing different armies. I think that might help people tailor their ideas a bit better to suit their local scenes.

 

Any questions or comments? Anything you want me to talk about further?

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

okay cool means my hypothetical plan of taking GKGM + 4 Paladins + a squad of 5 GKTs as-troops is possible

 

You need 2 troops choices BEFORE any Grand Strategy shenanigans, since you need a legal list to start the game. Grand Strategy happens after the game starts, but before deployment.

[Shyft]

okay cool means my hypothetical plan of taking GKGM + 4 Paladins + a squad of 5 GKTs as-troops is possible

 

You need 2 troops choices BEFORE any Grand Strategy shenanigans, since you need a legal list to start the game. Grand Strategy happens after the game starts, but before deployment.

 

ahahaha, yes, No, I didn't mean that. I was working under my physical model limits, i have 10 metal GKTs and 20 PAGKs, I can make the minimum requirements, I just wanted to have 2 squads of terminators, 1 being pallies.

[Custodian Athiair]

ok i understand now why you can only use one or the other. that could get annoying. because the time when you want to use hammer hand eg. against bigger creatures

you cant use the force weapon to kill them out right :( shame

but i am right in thinking that they are still a Power Weapon even without a psychic test...

 

and secondly thanks for everything so far (again) Resv. it is so useful :)

it's interesting what you say about Dreadknights, because everyone presumed that they would be as deadly as Wraithlords. but the way you suggest it seems that they aren't worth it. which to be honest saves some point.

 

and something else you said, is make sure every unit has some sort of transport. i'm why you save this, i know that they could get killed quite easily (i missed shrouding :(), but surely you could by more men in replace for those transports. especially if you want 2 psycannons shooting out the top hatch on a rhino.

basically i'm just looking for a bit more detail in why you say transport = neccessity.

 

thanks :)

 

Athiair :D

[Ashe Darke]

ok i understand now why you can only use one or the other. that could get annoying. because the time when you want to use hammer hand eg. against bigger creatures

you cant use the force weapon to kill them out right :whistling: shame

but i am right in thinking that they are still a Power Weapon even without a psychic test...

Yeah they are still power weapons. I guess when it comes to say Mawlocs and Trygons it's best to have rolled it out before hand to see what it more likely to happen. Removing all 6 wounds or getting pass Shadowing in the Warp and hoping for a 6.

 

Against Nid Warriors Force Swords all the way.

[daismith906]

Resv do you think a DS "Knightwing" list would be a viable list to play.

 

Basically my list is

 

GM, Pyscannon, Halberd, x3 Servo Skulls, maybe some special grenades

10 TGK, x2 Pyscannons, x1 DH, Rest Halberds (Combat Squad) 5man squad with x2 pyscannons scout using GM special

10 TGK, x2 Pyscannons, x1 DH, Rest Halberds (Combat Squad) 5man squad with x2 pyscannons scout using GM special

x6 TGK, x1 Pyscannon, x1 DH, Banner (GM goes here)

 

x2 Pysfle Dreads

 

That gives 8 pyscannons give suprresing fire whilte the rest DS and cause havoc...................hopefully lol!

[Resv]

I really like using Rad-Grenades with my Brotherhood Banner to make up for the loss of Hammer Hand. This makes things that Ashe Darke mentioned easier to wound (Mawlocs, Trygons, and other S6 units) with the -1 to Toughness that Rad-Grenades cause and then the Banner can take them out. It is like having both powers activated without ever having to make a psychic test.

 

@Daismith:

That looks like a good starting point for your list. With Grand Strategy you can do a couple of cool things that make a list like this even more flexible. In a game where you can expect a to be assaulted quite a lot, giving your Terminators Counter Attack allows them to hold onto vital attacks if they don't get to charge. Scout might not be of much use but I am sure with some experimentation you might find one or two situations where it is valuable. Hero mentioned on his blog that he though a 1:5 ratio of Daemon Hammers to Terminators was a good idea, I agree with him here and is what I was running on my Terminators. It might be something to think about but is by no means required.

 

Okay, now for the bad stuff. Your really going to have a hard time against shooting armies with low AP weapons. A "KnightWing" or "GrayWing" or "Goose" army (as we nick named it at my store) will operate in a very similar way to Deathwing armies before the FAQ. Even with Servo Skulls to guide your Terminators in you might find the more tactical choice to be Deep Striking on a flank or from behind. Regardless, you should give it a shot and try it for yourself! I would like to know more about the kind of tactics you're thinking about.

 

@Athiair:

Thanks for the kind comments. I do wish the Dread Knight had played a bit better, but for the cost I really think there are better options. If they had only given it two Psycannons or Incinerators instead of the "Heavy" weapons I would be more inclined recommend it.

 

On the subject of Transports for Gray Knights: Gray Knights are about on par with Space Marines when it comes to mobility. Space Marines can make up for this somewhat with all of their available shooting from tanks and such. Shooting that is generally pretty long range. Gray Knights however lack support vehicles like Predators and Speeders and the maximum engagement range for almost every infantry squad is capped at 24 inches (excluding henchmen from this). Sadly, this means they are immediately at a disadvantage against most armies. This became more and more apparent in games against Eldar and especially Imperial Guard. Transportation, while not necessary, helps protect the Gray Knights and move them into range to where they are the most powerful, mid to close range.

 

Again, I don't think transports are super necessary but they do help push the advantages the Gray Knights have. i hope that sort of answer you question.

[Vindicatus]

Figure I'll throw this in there for all your consideration. :D I revamped it a little (first list up top, second towards the bottom) to try to get away from the necessity of taking Crowe.

 

Here (B&C Armies list)

[Rinion]

People seem to give all their squads a Rhino, am i assuming this is so they can drive froward shooting Psycannons out of the hatch while hopefully not being killed to plasma cannon spam or similar?

 

Still not sure how to deal with plascannon spam.

 

Also in all my lists, i can't decide between purifiers and their cheap halberds and attacks, or Intercepters and their possible first turn charge/general mobility.

[Vindicatus]

Only way to deal with Plasma-spam is to effectively use cover an TLOS versus units that would be firing at them until it's a little too late, and they have to choose between the Razorback with TL S7 assault cannon spam, or the squad that hopped out to say hello.

[DV8]

I mean, you use him to take out something important early on, like a farseer or IG commander. Hmm... question: Does the Vindicare require you use a special round every shot, or is there a default, not-special version?

 

The default shot wounds on 2+. You can choose instead to fire a Shield-Breaker (removes Invulnerable Saves bestowed by wargear, but does no damage) or Turbo-Penetrator (inflicts 2 wounds instead of one, rolls 4D6 for armor penetration).

 

The Exitus Rifle and Pistol have a Strength X AP1 Sniper default statline, but honestly, why would you ever use it? Why would you not want to wound on 2+, do two wounds, remove invulnerable saves or get better penetration against tanks? Do remember that the special rounds are now no longer imited, and you can shoot one every turn.

 

Are you referring to why one would ever use the Pistol? Because, as an Exitus weapon, it benefits from all the special rounds that the Exitus Rifle can use, only it isn't heavy. It allows the Vindicare to maybe do something when on the move.

 

As for Farseers, well, they can easily be put in a Wave Serpent, against which the Vindicare is completely useless, unless you can target rear armour. Against other things they're amazing though, but expect him to draw a lot of fire.

 

Why would the Vindicare be useless against a Wave Serpent (or rather, against the front and side arcs)? The force field prow that Wave Serpents are equipped with reduce the strength of incoming attacks, dropping any hit with a strength greater than 8 down to 8. It does nothing to affect the actual penetration roll, so a Vindicare with Exitus Rifle still has 3+4D6 (plus D3 per rending 6) armor penetration against a Wave Serpent. Holofields, more than anything else, is what will keep Eldar vehicles alive (although with the amount of S7 and S8 firepower Grey Knights can put out, I can't see it being that much longer).

 

 

DV8

[RedemptionNL]

The Exitus Rifle and Pistol have a Strength X AP1 Sniper default statline, but honestly, why would you ever use it? Why would you not want to wound on 2+, do two wounds, remove invulnerable saves or get better penetration against tanks? Do remember that the special rounds are now no longer imited, and you can shoot one every turn.

Are you referring to why one would ever use the Pistol? Because, as an Exitus weapon, it benefits from all the special rounds that the Exitus Rifle can use, only it isn't heavy. It allows the Vindicare to maybe do something when on the move.

No, he was asking about the default statline, in other words, not using any of the special ammunitions.

 

As for Farseers, well, they can easily be put in a Wave Serpent, against which the Vindicare is completely useless, unless you can target rear armour. Against other things they're amazing though, but expect him to draw a lot of fire.

Why would the Vindicare be useless against a Wave Serpent (or rather, against the front and side arcs)? The force field prow that Wave Serpents are equipped with reduce the strength of incoming attacks, dropping any hit with a strength greater than 8 down to 8. It does nothing to affect the actual penetration roll, so a Vindicare with Exitus Rifle still has 3+4D6 (plus D3 per rending 6) armor penetration against a Wave Serpent. Holofields, more than anything else, is what will keep Eldar vehicles alive (although with the amount of S7 and S8 firepower Grey Knights can put out, I can't see it being that much longer).

A Wave Serpent's Energy Field rule only allows 1 die to be rolled for armour penetration, so stuff like Ordnance, Melta or Rending does nothing.

[DV8]

No, he was asking about the default statline, in other words, not using any of the special ammunitions.

 

Ah I see. That makes sense...wasn't quite sure because of the wording...

 

A Wave Serpent's Energy Field rule only allows 1 die to be rolled for armour penetration, so stuff like Ordnance, Melta or Rending does nothing.

 

Huh...well I'm learning something new every day...

 

 

DV8