Pure Grey Knights Tactica

[HERO]

Hello Brothers,

 

I have written a PGK Tactica for us older veterans and newer players like. It's pretty competitive of course, so expect to see some bias and min-maxing.

 

I made this post because I wanted you guys to check it out and give me feedback. Once I get enough information on it, I'll compile it into a tactica article for B&C :ermm:

 

Let it rip!

[Marmande]

I read it earlier and thought it was a good start, but I'm surprised you didn't mention Psybolts for Interceptor squads. At 2pts a model (effectively) you give the Storm Bolter-wielding members of the squad to punch holes in AV10, which can be crucial when facing, well, just about any other army that relies on cheap transports.

[HERO]

I read it earlier and thought it was a good start, but I'm surprised you didn't mention Psybolts for Interceptor squads. At 2pts a model (effectively) you give the Storm Bolter-wielding members of the squad to punch holes in AV10, which can be crucial when facing, well, just about any other army that relies on cheap transports.

 

Good, that's a good start :ermm:

Psybolts indeed!

[Marmande]

I mean, yea, it's a 315pt unit at that point, but you might as well splurge while you're already up there. :ermm: Hitting AND wounding Marines on 3's after popping their Rhino/attempting to clear a unit off an Objective after shunting next to it on turn 5/forcing wounds on a Long Fangs squad more than justifies the cost. And that's without moving on to the vulnerable stuff.

[SamaNagol]

S5 Storm Bolters really are a must buy for 10 man squads.

[HERO]

S5 Storm Bolters really are a must buy for 10 man squads.

 

I don't know man, 20 points for the upgrade and it gets expensive really quick. I'd rather see them on 2+ models because they last longer.

 

I like having big squads all over the place, and that's a extra 80 points across 4 squads.

[SamaNagol]

Depends how long you are going to spend on the table top and how long you are going to spend in a Rhino. If its a footslogging unit then 16 S5 AP5 shots at 24" every turn is beautiful.

[Rommel44]

Havent taken a look at the new Codex yet, hwever another player at my store has and he is already liking the idea of a pure army of Grey Knight Terminators lead by a Grand Master w/his Ghost Terminators retinune, with a few Stormravens so its going to be interesting to test out my Sisters of Battle against the new Grey Knights.

[Shyft]

I personally like the idea of rocking a grand master + a 5man squad of paladins in a Storm Raven, use it as a 'Reach Out and Touch Someone' hammer while the rest of the army does whatever it does. I'm of course 100% sure this is a horribly inefficient plan, but I like the idea.

[BA.Rauk]

My problem with Paladins is that I can't personally justify spending an extra 35 points a model for 1w and 1WS. The rest of the upgrades for each just make them that much more of a waste when someone shoots Melta / Las (Or anything Str8 + ) into them. And in the metagame I play in, Terminators more often die to anti armor fire then anything else. If I would up running a GM and Terminators in a SR I'd run a 5 man troop GKTDA squad with 1 MC hammer, 4 Halberds and a Banner (assuming they can take it, haven't gotten a chance to gander at the book yet, hoping soon!). Cheap, relatively effective and if someone happens to shoot the Raven out of the sky then drop a bunch of fire into them, less lost then if they were paladins.

[HERO]

My problem with Paladins is that I can't personally justify spending an extra 35 points a model for 1w and 1WS. The rest of the upgrades for each just make them that much more of a waste when someone shoots Melta / Las (Or anything Str8 + ) into them. And in the metagame I play in, Terminators more often die to anti armor fire then anything else. If I would up running a GM and Terminators in a SR I'd run a 5 man troop GKTDA squad with 1 MC hammer, 4 Halberds and a Banner (assuming they can take it, haven't gotten a chance to gander at the book yet, hoping soon!). Cheap, relatively effective and if someone happens to shoot the Raven out of the sky then drop a bunch of fire into them, less lost then if they were paladins.

 

That's a 615 point flying tin can. I guess if you call that cheap, go for it.

 

Paladins are also +15pts from a normal Terminator, not 35. You get what you pay for.

 

Havent taken a look at the new Codex yet, hwever another player at my store has and he is already liking the idea of a pure army of Grey Knight Terminators lead by a Grand Master w/his Ghost Terminators retinune, with a few Stormravens so its going to be interesting to test out my Sisters of Battle against the new Grey Knights.

 

A lot of people love the idea of Terminators in SRs.. don't do it brothers!

 

You are better off DS'ing big squads of Terminators and use the SRs to carry normal 10-man units like Purifiers/GKSS.

 

You also want a Librarian in there to cast Shrouding to any surrounding units.

[monkeyking]

I personally like the idea of rocking a grand master + a 5man squad of paladins in a Storm Raven, use it as a 'Reach Out and Touch Someone' hammer while the rest of the army does whatever it does. I'm of course 100% sure this is a horribly inefficient plan, but I like the idea.

 

Actually, I think Stormravens are overlooked a lot. A first round flat out move will eat up a lot of ground, and it can still put out one TL-Lascannon or TL-MM shot, and give it a 4+ cover save. 3+ if you have a Librarian with shrouding. Bring a dread along for Reinforced Aegis. and a Group of GKT with psycannon, and your looking at a unit that can move 36" after 2 turns, disgorge all its passengers for a grand total of 4 discrete AT shots (2 seperate shots from the Storm Raven thanks to PotMS, the Dread fires, and the GKT), plus a possible assault by both GKT and Dread. And thats why I think they're cool.

 

Getting them to survive til turn 2 will be the trick.

 

Edit: @Hero, You can always give the Librarian a teleport homer and DS the remaining terminators on Turn 2. The Raven also totes along the Dread, which will do alot to cover anti-pysker stuff and enhance saturation. Does your opponent kill the SR or the Dread, or the Termies? Choices, choices.

[Resv]

I liked the basic outline you wrote, and I think you hit on a lot of good points. I think you didn't mention what Psybolt Ammo does (I might have missed it) but I think that is an important upgrade to explain. The extra strength on Psy-Rifle Dreads really helps them take out light and medium armor, making them an excellent support unit for Gray Knight infantry. I also wanted to add that in my play testing I found that Purifiers in a Rhino with only two Psycannons instead of four to be very effective. The reason behind this is that I want to get my Purifiers into assault where they can do maximum damage and the extra halberd Force Weapon attacks are well worth it. I know this doesn't lend itself to Combat Squads as well but that additional 20 points might be better spent else where.

 

Also, on the subject of the Nemesis Dread Knight, I think you got it completely right. However when it comes to the shunt move I found that this could be used in a much more tactical way than either a scout move or a first turn rush. Using the move to outflank or come in from reserves an really add to the survivability of the NDK. The Dread Knight is pure gold against enemy vehicles but when it comes to infantry it doesn't do quite as well. Lastly is his size. You don't mention this in your blog but I think it needs to be pointed out. Getting a cover save with an NDK is really hard and don't be surprised if he is cut down quickly. Even with his great saves he is nothing more than a big Terminator and most every low AP weapon will have the strength to put the hurt on him.

[HERO]

I personally like the idea of rocking a grand master + a 5man squad of paladins in a Storm Raven, use it as a 'Reach Out and Touch Someone' hammer while the rest of the army does whatever it does. I'm of course 100% sure this is a horribly inefficient plan, but I like the idea.

 

Actually, I think Stormravens are overlooked a lot. A first round flat out move will eat up a lot of ground, and it can still put out one TL-Lascannon or TL-MM shot, and give it a 4+ cover save. 3+ if you have a Librarian with shrouding. Bring a dread along for Reinforced Aegis. and a Group of GKT with psycannon, and your looking at a unit that can move 36" after 2 turns, disgorge all its passengers for a grand total of 4 discrete AT shots (2 seperate shots from the Storm Raven thanks to PotMS, the Dread fires, and the GKT), plus a possible assault by both GKT and Dread. And thats why I think they're cool.

 

Getting them to survive til turn 2 will be the trick.

 

Edit: @Hero, You can always give the Librarian a teleport homer and DS the remaining terminators on Turn 2. The Raven also totes along the Dread, which will do alot to cover anti-pysker stuff and enhance saturation. Does your opponent kill the SR or the Dread, or the Termies? Choices, choices.

 

1835

Storm Ravens

 

HQ:

Grand Master (MC Incinerator, Blind, Rad) = 210

Librarian (+3 Powers, Teleport Homer) = 180

 

TROOP:

10x GKSS (MC DH, 2x Psycannons) = 235

10x GKT (MCDH, DH, 2x Psycannons, BBanner, Psybolts) = 500

 

ELITE:

10x Purifiers (MC DH, Halberds, 4x Psycannons) = 300

 

FAST:

Storm Raven (TLMM) = 205

Storm Raven (TLMM) = 205

 

That's what I would run, personally.

 

I just don't like Storm Ravens because the last couple of times I used them, they just die horribly. They are flying eggs in a basket and when they cost 205 and holds troops, everything anti-tank and above goes into them on Turn 1 :(

[BA.Rauk]

Yeah, was a mistype there for the 35 points, was thinking 15. And yeah, I'm not saying the Stormraven is cheap to lose (In fact it would hurt badly) but that I personally am going to opt out of using Paladins and Terminators for the most part. (Save 5 man Terminator squads to house Libbys or GM) And yeah, with regards to Stormravens it's all about getting that 24'' boost turn 1 and going first to ensure you have that 4+ cover save to keep them alive (hopefully). And relying on having first turn for something to function outside of going into reserve is a waste (since if you're going to reserve Terminators in a Sr, you may as well Deepstrike them and save those 205 points). I like stormravens, but don't like them with Greyknights. The biggest problem I'm running into while math hammering and list thinking is where I'm going to put my GM. There will be just too many toys in the new codex and it's weighing versatility of things between a SR / LR and Psy-rifleman Dreads that makes said choices difficult.

 

Although one question that may or may not make the decision easier, can GKTDA take Landraiders as Dedicated Transports? Because if so, giving said LR scout would give it a lot of weight in said theory crafting. (Hoping my LGS has the black box tomorrow when I go in as we're in canada, so had to wait an extra week or two to get the black boxes through distributors.)

 

Edit: Just noticed the possibility of GKSS having the DS rule and if so- Problem solved!

[Joasht]

I noticed a comment about the old Land Raider (lascannons) and while I do agree with the issue of the points being "better spent elsewhere", there are frankly just some things that absolutely need that lascannon shot to the face to kill. The PGK army suffers tremendously from a lack of decent anti-armor, requiring close quarters for the most part, or unusual things like Warp Rift (which is template ranged anyway).

[BrotherWasted]

GKT do not have the option of a Dedicated Transport.

 

 

I noticed a comment about the old Land Raider (lascannons) and while I do agree with the issue of the points being "better spent elsewhere", there are frankly just some things that absolutely need that lascannon shot to the face to kill. The PGK army suffers tremendously from a lack of decent anti-armor, requiring close quarters for the most part, or unusual things like Warp Rift (which is template ranged anyway).

 

 

Psycannons aren't enough for you? They're mid-range, not close range, I'll grant, but you have a better chance of scoring a penetrating hit with a Psycannon on AV14 than you do with a Lascannon.

 

Lascannon - 1 shot, requiring 6 to penetrate AV14

Psycannon - 2 Shots on the move, 4 shots stationary, requiring a 6 to trigger Rending (which guarantees a 2/3 chance to penetrate AV14).

 

The odds of penetrating AV14 with a Lascannon are 1/6. The odds of penetrating AV14 with a Psycannon are:

 

1/6 chance of triggering rending

4/6 chance thereafter of scoring AP15 or higher

 

Equals 4/36 (or 1/9) chance to penetrate per dice, multiplied by 4 dice = 4/9 chance to penetrate AV14 with a Heavy 4 Psycannon. Reduce this to 2/9 if firing on the move. In either situation, the chances are higher than using a Lascannon.

 

Assuming Ballistic Skill 4, the chances then become:

 

Lascannon: 2/3 chance of hitting * 1/6 chance to penetrate = 2/18 = 1/9 attempts.

Heavy 4 Psycannon: 2/3 chance of hitting * 1/6 chance to trigger rending * 2/3 chance to score AP15 or higher * 4 Dice = 4/54 * 4 = 16/54 = 8/27 = almost 1/3. Make this 4/27 for an Assault 2 Psycannon.

[DV8]

Don't forget that Terminators are relentless and thus can fire Psycannons to full effect, even while on the move.

 

 

DV8

[muadib02]

What amuses me is that Grey Knight Strike Squads also have the ability to deep strike...which can lead to some amusement with a footslogging/deepstriking army with Psychic Communion and some Servo Skulls.

[bearden441]

I was having a discussion with my friend on the following point, and since it was mentioned in your tactica (great article btw) I figured I would toss it out here.

 

The scouts USR basically says that you can make a normal move prior to the beginning of the game (example is bikes cannot use turbo boosts)

 

For the NDK, would the shunt in the scout phase count as a normal move? I of course argued that it could and he of course argued that it couldnt (who would want to be on the receiving end of that lol).

 

I was wondering if you could shed some light on this as a scout shunt move gives the knights an extreme tactical advantage, especially on turn 1 with the possibility of any combination of 3 squads assaulting on turn 1 (i would probably use 2 NDKs and 1 interceptor squad with psycannons - possibly combat squaded if both combat squads get scout for multiple target shooting).

[Hellios]

The scouts USR basically says that you can make a normal move prior to the beginning of the game (example is bikes cannot use turbo boosts)

I thought it was only Ravenwing bikes that specifically state they can't turbo boost during the scout phase...

 

Anyway assuming that it isn't stated in the shunt rules that you can't then I see no reason why you can't get a first turn charge :D

[number6]

1835

Storm Ravens

 

HQ:

Grand Master (MC Incinerator, Blind, Rad) = 210

Librarian (+3 Powers, Teleport Homer) = 180

 

TROOP:

10x GKSS (MC DH, 2x Psycannons) = 235

10x GKT (MCDH, DH, 2x Psycannons, BBanner, Psybolts) = 500

 

ELITE:

10x Purifiers (MC DH, Halberds, 4x Psycannons) = 300

 

FAST:

Storm Raven (TLMM) = 205

Storm Raven (TLMM) = 205

 

That's what I would run, personally.

 

I just don't like Storm Ravens because the last couple of times I used them, they just die horribly. They are flying eggs in a basket and when they cost 205 and holds troops, everything anti-tank and above goes into them on Turn 1 :D

Well, of course the Stormravens in this army list are going to die on turn 1! You haven't given your enemy anything else to shoot at!

 

Competitive listbuilding 101: Saturate the enemy with targets. If you're not doing that, your list is crap. :D

[lordsloth]

And relying on having first turn for something to function outside of going into reserve is a waste (since if you're going to reserve Terminators in a Sr, you may as well Deepstrike them and save those 205 points).

 

Depends. It's not optimal if you second, to be sure. But theres a decent chance that by the time your reserves show up the enemy will have moved closer. The stormraven makes for a pretty decent charge range when walking in from the rear so theres a fair shot something will be in range. While deepstriking doesnt allow you to assault until the turn after.

 

Granted this all depends on what kind of army you are versing and its still much nicer if you have first turn and can deploy it at the start. But hey, sometimes you have to make the best out of a bad situation, and in this case the stormraven can still sort of account for itself somewhat I think.

[HERO]

1835

Storm Ravens

 

HQ:

Grand Master (MC Incinerator, Blind, Rad) = 210

Librarian (+3 Powers, Teleport Homer) = 180

 

TROOP:

10x GKSS (MC DH, 2x Psycannons) = 235

10x GKT (MCDH, DH, 2x Psycannons, BBanner, Psybolts) = 500

 

ELITE:

10x Purifiers (MC DH, Halberds, 4x Psycannons) = 300

 

FAST:

Storm Raven (TLMM) = 205

Storm Raven (TLMM) = 205

 

That's what I would run, personally.

 

I just don't like Storm Ravens because the last couple of times I used them, they just die horribly. They are flying eggs in a basket and when they cost 205 and holds troops, everything anti-tank and above goes into them on Turn 1 :D

Well, of course the Stormravens in this army list are going to die on turn 1! You haven't given your enemy anything else to shoot at!

 

Competitive listbuilding 101: Saturate the enemy with targets. If you're not doing that, your list is crap. B)

 

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

 

Which is WHY I prefer not running any Storm Ravens, especially those carrying anything.

 

Look at all my army lists, no SRs. I wonder why? Too many eggs in a AV12 basket. At least take a AV14 one..

[boreas]

Wouldn't SRs be nice when part of an all-reserve army? Two SRs full of purifiers, a DS-ing Termi squad accompanied by a GKGM, 1-2 outflanking naked NDK, 2 GKSS squads in rhinos.

 

Been playing WFB for 6 months, my 40k is rusty!

 

Phil