Pure Grey Knights Tactica

[Resv]

Well, of course the Stormravens in this army list are going to die on turn 1! You haven't given your enemy anything else to shoot at!

 

Competitive listbuilding 101: Saturate the enemy with targets. If you're not doing that, your list is crap. :lol:

 

I really think that this comment is where the rubber hits the road when it comes to Gray Knights. The most successful Gray Knight armies are going to be frugal with points, and not blow half of them on one or two units that are going to be the focus of all of your enemies fire. This is part of the reason I don't like Paladins for instance. It is a cool unit but it can only be in one place at a time so investing in the highly while the rest of your army is sub standard makes no sense. Storm Ravens are in the same boat, cool unit and all but they represent a significant points investment that will probably get shot down turn one.

[daismith906]

Im looking to run a "GreyWing" list, i know it wont be that competative but should be fun to play & get a few wins if things go right

 

Going from what ive read about the codex heres my rough 1750pts list

 

HQ

GrandMaster - Halberd, Pyscannon, maybe some pysgrenades

 

Elites

Vindicare

 

Troops

x10 TGK, x2 Pyscannons, x2 Daemon Hammers, rest Halberds (then combat squad them)

x10 TGK, x2 Pyscannons, x2 Daemon Hammers, rest Halberds (then combat squad them)

x5 TGK, x1 Pyscannon, x1 Daemon Hammer, rest Halberds

 

Heavy Support

Pysfle Dread, x2 Twin-linked Autocannons

Pysfle Dread, x2 Twin-linked Autocannons

 

Maybe squeeze in a libby if points allow

[HERO]

Well, of course the Stormravens in this army list are going to die on turn 1! You haven't given your enemy anything else to shoot at!

 

Competitive listbuilding 101: Saturate the enemy with targets. If you're not doing that, your list is crap. :lol:

 

I really think that this comment is where the rubber hits the road when it comes to Gray Knights. The most successful Gray Knight armies are going to be frugal with points, and not blow half of them on one or two units that are going to be the focus of all of your enemies fire. This is part of the reason I don't like Paladins for instance. It is a cool unit but it can only be in one place at a time so investing in the highly while the rest of your army is sub standard makes no sense. Storm Ravens are in the same boat, cool unit and all but they represent a significant points investment that will probably get shot down turn one.

 

Exactly.

With 410 points for 2x Storm Ravens, that's another squad and a half of Purifiers or a full unit of Terminators.

 

Here's why:

 

If you take 1 SR carrying stuff and driving the rest, the SR is going to get shot first because it's obviously carrying stuff.

If you're taking 2 SR to double your chances to move up the field, you're sinking a ton of points in 2 AV12 units. Sure, they move faster, but AV14 w/ Shrouding/Smokes is a lot more effective.

If you reserve the SR that's carrying the stuff while the rest of your army is driving up, that SR is not contributing to the fight for X amount of turns.

If you reserve the SR, and have everything in DS or reserve, your relying on dice to make your list synergize on the right turn (if it ever happens). That's not a risk I'm willing to take.

 

In short, there's better options than the SR. Sorry SR lovers/players.

[number6]

Look at all my army lists, no SRs. I wonder why? Too many eggs in a AV12 basket. At least take a AV14 one..

The only one of your sample lists that has potential is the "Balanced" one. The others all suffer from too few units. They're all composed of "too many eggs in [whatever] basket" syndrome. Those baskets just happen to be 10-man infantry units, usually. That's not an improvement over two stormravens.

 

If you're going to field that little armour and put that little amount infantry on the table, they need to be able to suck up the kind of firepower that 2000 pts of basic SM or IG (heck, even Tyranids) can pump out. None of the rest of your lists can hack it.

 

There is definitely going to be a place for one or more Stormravens in a GK army. Several GK armies, actually. (Provided they're build correctly.) Putting terminators or GKs on the table for the same points isn't an automatic improvement over fielding stormraven(s). They aren't equivalent units. They do completely different things; they bring entirely different sets of capabilities to your army.

 

Is the stormraven expensive? Yes. But it's also absolutely unique in capabilities in Codex: Grey Knights. It is entirely possible -- and for some gamers, desirable -- to build lists around those capabilities.

 

Regarding your preference for land raiders:

That is not an improvement, either. In fact, it's easier for armies like IG or SM to just run a sacrificial melta squad up to the raider and slag it than it is for them to do it to a stormraven. (The stormraven's got way better mobility and more ability to get saves against hits.) The raider costs more points and is going to be just as dead just as quickly. UNLESS you've built an army list around the capabilities of the raider and that list is balanced up and down, top to bottom.

 

Same issue as with stormravens.

Or ANY unit in the codex.

 

Stormravens are not a priori bad units. Neither are raiders or just about any other unit in the codex. They all have a purpose ... in the right balanced army list.

[HERO]

Those baskets just happen to be 10-man infantry units, usually. That's not an improvement over two stormravens.

 

That's because the new book doesn't have combat squads right? The argument for 10-man units is moot as long as CS is in the game.

 

Field the SR if you want, it's a flying AV12 faceplant. You can at least hide the LR behind Rhinos, mid-sized buildings for continuous cover saves while maintaining firepower.

 

I'm trying to highlight the importance of effective and competitive play. The SR is not it, for reasons I have already discussed. If you want to party with a SR, go for it. But know that I won't bother spending the points on a 205 point unit that will crash and burn to 50% of the firepower in the game. Even meltas without their extra D6 will go to work on a SR with their AP1.

 

The only one of your sample lists that has potential is the "Balanced" one.

 

Thanks for pointing it out man, I appreciate it. Maybe that's why it's labeled balanced where the other lists were geared towards a specific purpose. But hey, who uses labels these days anyway.

[Vilicate]

Hero,

 

I liked your blog. After looking at the preview (and now full codex), I feel like your analysis is pretty much dead on. I disagree about with you regarding the usefulness of some of the special characters, but overall you seem to have the right of it.

 

As was mentioned earlier, I think that psybolts are a worthy upgrade for units, but only for 10 man units and they're a gimme on things like the land raider crusader.

 

I'm also thinking the interceptor squads are worth the points - the ability to potentially make them scoring or even better, scout, is amazing.

[HERO]

Keep in mind the Crusader can no longer fire the S5 Hurricane Bolters as a defensive weapons, but yes otherwise I agree.

[Aeddon]

@Hero,

 

Thanks for the tactica, it's a good read and gave me a few ideas. One thing I noticed though, wouldn't it be better to equip a few of the units each with different CC weapons to help out with wound allocation? This seems to be the obvious choice for me given that most of these cost nothing to swap (NDH, NFS, NFH all free, NF only 5 points).

[HERO]

@Hero,

 

Thanks for the tactica, it's a good read and gave me a few ideas. One thing I noticed though, wouldn't it be better to equip a few of the units each with different CC weapons to help out with wound allocation? This seems to be the obvious choice for me given that most of these cost nothing to swap (NDH, NFS, NFH all free, NF only 5 points).

 

I left most of the weapon options off Paladins/Terminators for those that want to play wound allocation shenanigans. But in terms of actual weapon application, Halberds are preferred, then DH (in a 5:1 ratio), then Swords (if you already have a Invul), and then Warding (if you really want to spend points).

[Aeddon]

Gotcha, thanks

[number6]

That's because the new book doesn't have combat squads right?

I think you need to reread the codex. :D Can't offer a "competitive" tactica and miss a rule that important.

I'm trying to highlight the importance of effective and competitive play. The SR is not it, for reasons I have already discussed.

I understand. But your arguments don't hold water. If the SR is too expensive to be worth it then you must also say that land raiders are, too. If you fail to understand how easily land raiders are killed then I can't help you. Don't your opponents field like 16+ meltas in their lists? If they're depending on lascannons, well, OK then, I can understand why your view on them is skewed.

[Joasht]

Psycannons aren't enough for you? They're mid-range, not close range, I'll grant, but you have a better chance of scoring a penetrating hit with a Psycannon on AV14 than you do with a Lascannon.

 

I don't really fancy your tone, but alas this is the internet, I'm just going to assume you weren't being rude.

 

First and foremost, the Psycannon is 24" range.

Secondly, the Psycannon only rends *if you are firing it in its Heavy 4 mode*. I've looked at the codex, and its written there Assault 2 or Heavy 4 Rending. You don't get rending if you move. This means that unless you are packing Terminators, you are going to have to depend on your opponent sitting right there, within 24", so you can just shoot at it without moving anywhere. Granted yes it can happen, but being totally immobile with PAGKs has its own issues, as opposed to the Lascannons mounted on a Land Raider.

 

That said, in my original reply I didn't say Land Raiders are awesome or anything like that. I just pointed out that having S9 guns in an army sorely lacking melta and lascannons (particularly because pure GK armies don't have the space apes) is not a bad thing to have lying around, and frankly, out of all the Space Marine chapters, the GKs would get the most use out of the original pattern Land Raider. The only problem is given the price of the GK army points-wise, taking a Land Raider (or two, really. One just dies too fast) would be a massive point investment and fairly risky.

[HERO]

I think you need to reread the codex. Can't offer a "competitive" tactica and miss a rule that important.

 

That was sarcasm...

 

And they field 16 Meltas and a ton of twin-linked S7 or S8 as well, so both aren't completely safe. But if I had to choose one, it would be the LR. Again, the reason is that the LR is completely immune to S6, S7 and most of S8. The SR, however, not so much.

[Gentlemanloser]

Secondly, the Psycannon only rends *if you are firing it in its Heavy 4 mode*. I've looked at the codex, and its written there Assault 2 or Heavy 4 Rending.

 

Is there a comma after the Heavy 4? :/

[Ashe Darke]

First and foremost, the Psycannon is 24" range.

Secondly, the Psycannon only rends *if you are firing it in its Heavy 4 mode*. I've looked at the codex, and its written there Assault 2 or Heavy 4 Rending. You don't get rending if you move. This means that unless you are packing Terminators, you are going to have to depend on your opponent sitting right there, within 24", so you can just shoot at it without moving anywhere. Granted yes it can happen, but being totally immobile with PAGKs has its own issues, as opposed to the Lascannons mounted on a Land Raider.

You appear to need to look harder. The Type is Assault 2 or Heavy 4*, Rending (*This just talks about it's two profiles and a reminder that termies always use the Heavy profile).

 

Note the comma that comes afterwards. Both firing modes have Rending.

[BrotherWasted]

I apologise for my tone, but I had already stated that the Psycannon was not a long range weapon. But, considering that it's effective range can actually be 30" (walk 6" and fire Assault 2), it is more of a long range weapon than mid-range. Firing two Psycannons this way still gives you the same chances of penetrating as if you fired just one Psycannon as a Heavy 4 weapon - it is out of the range of a lot of anti-MEQ weapons, and still beats AV14 better than a Lascannon.

 

Also, don't forget that Grey Knight Razorbacks are a Fast Vehicle. This means you can move a Twinlinked "Psycannon" Razorback 12" and fire 4 shots.

 

Grey Knights do not really need any more anti tank. Psycannons and Rifleman Dreads, and Mastercrafted Daemonhammers shred tanks apart enough as it already is.

[Ashe Darke]

Also, don't forget that Grey Knight Razorbacks are a Fast Vehicle. This means you can move a Twinlinked "Psycannon" Razorback 12" and fire 4 shots.

They're only a Tank I'm afraid, not Fast at all.

[bearden441]

Also, don't forget that Grey Knight Razorbacks are a Fast Vehicle. This means you can move a Twinlinked "Psycannon" Razorback 12" and fire 4 shots.

They're only a Tank I'm afraid, not Fast at all.

 

yep this was changed from the leaked version to the actual version of the codex

[BrotherWasted]

Dang. Scrap that, then.

[SamaNagol]

I really would suggest not trying to strategise too hard using the leak dex because a lot of details have changed subtly.

 

I really think walking GKT units joined by the GK HQ to give you 8 rending shots every turn is an awesome combination.

[Ashe Darke]

I really would suggest not trying to strategise too hard using the leak dex because a lot of details have changed subtly.

Exactly even the leaked book didn't agree with itself. The unit entry said just Tank but the army list said Tank, Fast.

[HERO]

I really would suggest not trying to strategise too hard using the leak dex because a lot of details have changed subtly.

 

I really think walking GKT units joined by the GK HQ to give you 8 rending shots every turn is an awesome combination.

 

A 5-man Paladin squad w/ a GM w/ Psycannon puts down 8 Master-crafted Psycannon shots and 4 BS6 Psycannon shots per turn, walking.

 

This is the firepower I'm looking forward to!

[grimz]

What do you think is better:

 

10 Purifiers

Rhino

1 Master Crafted Daemon Hammer

7 Halbeards

2 Psycannons

324 Points

 

OR

 

10 Purifiers

Rhino

2 Normal Daemon Hammers (not on Justicar)

6 Halbeards

2 Psycannons

322 Points

 

I'm worried about perils on the Justicar/Keeper of the Flame and then losing my MC DH. Also, playing around with a few lists at 1850, I've found an extra 5 points can be extremely useful.

[Marmande]

Any reason you didn't max out at 4 Psycannons besides overkill, or potentially limiting the squad's ability in close combat?

[grimz]

The squad is meant to be running into the fray, and only 2 can be shooting out the top of the Rhino.

 

Plus that's an extra 20 points that needs to be found, seems like a pretty balanced unit for it's cost (imo - but I'm a newbie :P)