SillyDreadnought Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 So, I was re-reading First heretic again and I noticed something after I doublechecked one of those pictures that showed the breadth of Imperial control over the galaxy and noticed where Caliban, or rather it's shattered husk, was. In First heretic, Lorgar's legion is said to have been the first to have gone out that far, in refrence to the Eye of Terror. But I noticed Caliban is in that region as well. And by the time First Heretic's events in question happen, hadn't the Lion been found and intergrated into his legion by then? So... who went out that far first? The Emperor and the 1st legion to find the Lion and turn Caliban into it's psuedo-hive state... or Lorgar and the Word Bearers who bombed Cadia's original population? I'd find it odd that the Word Bearers had been out there first when the 1st Legion had been reunited with it's Primarch by then and had been recruiting from Caliban.. which is also right next to the Eye. And if the Emperor and the 1st -had- been out that far before the Word Bearers.. why hadn't Cadia and the other worlds surrounding the eye been brought into compliance like Caliban had been? He'd done it before with Chemos, Fenris and other homeworlds that Primarchs had been found on, bringing the neighbouring planets under compliance or colonising them. So, either First Heretic is incorrect, or the Emperor decided to leave it unrecorded that Caliban was found... or I'm just getting my timeline muddled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I'd say the book didn't get it right. I don't have the book out but, I believe Lorgar's punishment so to speak is around 40-50 yrs before the HH starts. The book does have kinda a time line at the beginning. And by that time the Lion and the 1st were already taking care of business. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I actually brought this up before on post on these boards a while back and I believe even Aaron Dembski-Bowden was posting on the thread and said or agreed as much to the following... You are looking at that map and thinking of space as two dimensional. Space is obviously three dimensional and that point where Caliban sits in relation to the Eye could be thousands of light years above or below. So if the Imperial forces are striking out and bringing worlds into compliance along a line, they could totally miss an area that is located substantially further "above" or "below" them, yet when you flattened the space map, the two could look like they were on top of each other. Also, it's quite easy to say that even if the Imperial Navy was aware of it, they would just assume the Eye was some simple space anomaly and given the tumultuous "weather" in and around the Eye, they would avoid and skirt around the area as much a possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 First Heretic is not wrong. While Caliban is in the vicinity, which is a relative term in terms of space travel, of the Eye of Terror, the Dark Angels never were sent to explore it. As somebody in this forum mentioned a month or so ago, just because you live across the street from the spooky old house, doesn't mean you go inside. I can't remember who said it, but credit where credit was due, it was a very apropos quote. Nobody, but nobody, wanted to go anywhere near there. No Crusade forces had been to Cadia prior to the Word Bearers. Nobody had actually gone into the Eye before the Word Bearers. Caliban's proximity to the Eye of Terror likely influenced the presence and growth of the Great Beasts, as well as the corruption of the world, but it was close to, not in, the Eye, pretty much on the opposite side of it from Cadia on the galactic map. And, in another vein, you don't send your prestigious First Legion to investigate the place in the galaxy where nightmares live and multiply: you send the other guys: the failures and the disappointments to the Emperor and his Crusade. You send the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrion Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I think there is a very simple explanation, the Horus Heresy Novelseries isn't canon. With this in mind you can read every mistake which is possible made and it is still possible that our codices are still 100% correct Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehoel Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, based on GW's own statements, everything is and is not canon. GW doesn't have a locked in canon system. They use a loose canon set up instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. Bloodhowl Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Aren't Caliban and Cadia on opposite sides of they Eye of Terror,? If so maybe the book is referring to Lorgar as being the first to travel that far in that direction, and the Emperor was going another when Caliban was found Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 It has been mentioned that the Lion was found relatively late in the Crusade, but before Horus became Warmaster. When Horus gained his rank the Lion took it in stride but thought it should have been him given how fast he'd become so successful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Further on the whole 3D viewing of the universe - http://www.sabbatella.com/National%20Geogr...verse%20Map.jpg Take the smallest most populated view "our sun's neighborhood" for instance. Look at the distance between those planets that fall at the top to those that fall at the bottom. Though they would fall right next to each other on the top 2D area, they are quite a distance when broken down this way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyDreadnought Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Thanks for the answers, although like true Unforgiven, you don't -fully- answer my question =p But you've definately given me some food for thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 As much as we love our circles within circles, I'll try to answer your questions more directly.... And by the time First Heretic's events in question happen, hadn't the Lion been found and intergrated into his legion by then? Yes, he had. I believe it is stated that the Lion missed approximately half of the Great Crusade. I can check the books when I get home, but I think I recall the pilgrimage that Lorgar took taking place 40 years prior Isstvan. So... who went out that far first? The Emperor and the 1st legion to find the Lion and turn Caliban into it's psuedo-hive state... or Lorgar and the Word Bearers who bombed Cadia's original population? Lorgar and his legion were the first to explore the space in and around the the Eye of terror if you go by the novels . And if the Emperor and the 1st -had- been out that far before the Word Bearers.. why hadn't Cadia and the other worlds surrounding the eye been brought into compliance like Caliban had been? "Out that far" is relative in space - both the Emperor and the Word Bearers may have explored that far in proximity to Terra however it is quite possible that those areas they explored are separated by dozens if not hundreds of light years or more. Also, why risk forces in a fairly unstable nebula of sorts. The Emperor may have even known it was there and told Imperial Forces not to bother. See full answers above. So, either First Heretic is incorrect, By the above reasoning, it works actually. Or the Emperor decided to leave it unrecorded that Caliban was found Doubtful, if you have read Fallen Angels you would see that Imperial forces did quite a number on Caliban as far as readying it for the Emperor's landing. How or even why would they hide that. or I'm just getting my timeline muddled. You're getting it just fine, just not thinking outside the box. I made the same accusation before I thought about it in the terms above. Those are my answers, of course some are conjecture, but if the author actually came into the thread I mentioned and said or agreed to as much than why would we argue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224842-an-odd-thing-i-noticed/#findComment-2689969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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