Requiemnex Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Prepare for long windedness. Skip this part if you just want to get to the point. Sooo. I just walked over to my local Hobby Store in Vermont and took a look at this new Grey Knight Codex.. I must say at first impression flipping through the pages and reading the rules I was very shocked to find that the accuracy was insane as to their playstyle, types of units and rules. This brought me and the store manager to a bit of debate. First we talked about some of the rules for the average Grey Knight unit. He argued about how much better than space marines they were.. I tried to counter with the fact that they are the finest of the elite. We talked about points and the like and how they added up. I put together a brief all comers list that consisted of 40 guys. It lacked anything to break through armor. I actually threw in two vindicare assassins to make up for the lack of armor penetration... He then spouted off about how this army completely ruins it for daemon players.. Now this is where it gets interesting.. Here in my area we have about 16-25 people who play at the local store.. There is one or two guys who play daemons at our store in a tourney level and the local store manager is considering banning grey knights from play. He has already banned all third edition and older codecies from tourney gameplay.. This includes sisters of battle, grey knights (until april), and necrons. So I am curious what others think about the idea that this army completely irradicates daemons to the point where daemons have no chance of winning. The Point I know that Daemons are not really a very high scale army and we rarely see them at tourney level play or even casual play. Do you think Grey Knights will completely kill off the remaining daemons players? What about the way they have chosen to balance Grey Knights. Does the lack of models on the table coupled with lack of anti tank put them at enough of a disadvantage to allow some of there over the top rules? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Banning already? Bans 'might' be justified after prolonged playtesting etc but for now i advocate 'wait and see'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 You can't have 2 Vindicare assassins. They are Unique and so you are limited to 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofblood Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 He banned what are generally considered underpowered codecies?(i.e. Necrons and SoB) I feel bad for the players that want to get into 40k and collect those armies but can't, does he think they are overpowered also? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 I actually have a sisters of battle army and enjoy the playstyle they bring to the table.. I also enjoy the fluff behind them.. I am pretty discouraged but it is not my store and there is nothing I can do to change his mind so I am over it. I am just curious if having read the rules that basically make them powerhouse daemons makes anyone else feel like it will kill off an already almost never seen army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 So he wants to play Grey Knights because they might be too good against 1 army that 2 people play? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 No. Flamers will still annihalate Power Armour Troops, and the Skull Taker will still *chop* *chop* 2W Pallies. It will just be a much better matchup and fun-ier games. Other than either being totally one sided and no fun for one player (hi hi Sanctuary spam) or the other (lolz 'letters and flamers have killed your entire army in 2 turns. Good game.). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 1st, that store manager sounds like a ignoramus to ban the most recent codexes for some current armies :P . 2nd...maybe they will? Grey Knights with halberds will go before nearly all daemons except Slaanesh. Having Preferred Enemy - Daemons will definitely hurt a lot. All of their anti-psychic stuff means squat, however. If anything, there is less anti-daemon stuff than before, as the old tricks and powers no longer exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofblood Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I actually have a sisters of battle army and enjoy the playstyle they bring to the table.. I also enjoy the fluff behind them.. I am pretty discouraged but it is not my store and there is nothing I can do to change his mind so I am over it. I am just curious if having read the rules that basically make them powerhouse daemons makes anyone else feel like it will kill off an already almost never seen army. That's unfortunate. =/ From what I have seen of the codex nothing really stands out to me as flat out making it so Daemons can't win. Any army can win if played well enough really. The biggest thing I think is Preferred Enemies: Daemons. Daemonbane on NFW doesn't matter against guys like 'letters or 'nettes. 10 charging bloodletters can cleave through 10 Power Armor knights easily enless the GK player bothered to give every single guy Halberds. Like I said though, I don't think it flat out makes it one-sided in favour of the Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 While Grey Knights certainly won't beat Daemons every single time, they certainly give them a far harder time than most other armies will. Immediately to me Warp Quake will be a major annoyance for Daemon units when they enter play, forcing Mishaps across the board. Once they do get on the table, however, the Daemons will have the upper hand in numbers and presumably speed (as Grey Knights no longer have weapons that simply strip away Daemonic Invulnerable Saves). Daemon units will also need to gauge the movements of their units to ensure they get the charge, as being charged will spell doom for most of their units, Halberds or not (as Psyk-out Grenades automatically drop all Daemons to Initiative 1 when charged by Grey Knights). Sanctuary will help the Grey Knights (as it forces the Daemons to charge through difficult and dangerous terrain), but that isn't going to be a power they'll be able to take in great numbers. Now what I need to check up on is whether Dark Excommunication strips away the Daemon Special Rules as well, or only items specifically granted by "Gifts"... DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 1st, that store manager sounds like a ignoramus to ban the most recent codexes for some current armies :P . 2nd...maybe they will? Grey Knights with halberds will go before nearly all daemons except Slaanesh. Having Preferred Enemy - Daemons will definitely hurt a lot. All of their anti-psychic stuff means squat, however. If anything, there is less anti-daemon stuff than before, as the old tricks and powers no longer exist. Halberds are only needed if getting charged and for rounds of combat after the first turn. Charging with psyk-out grenades makes them I1 so Halberds aren't necessarily needed to butcher them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Now what I need to check up on is whether Dark Excommunication strips away the Daemon Special Rules as well, or only items specifically granted by "Gifts"... DV8 I was actually wondering what they had intended when using the word "gifts" Granted I have not really spent much time looking at the daemons codex but I am not sure if their upgrades are considered gifts or not.. Truesilver armor? Oh.. My.. God? Come get my tank.. Making landraiders laugh at daemon princes.. Even the non psecific daemon killing weapons.. Psicannons and flamer templates galore.. This will really cause a lot of problem for the deepstriking army who gets either lackluster run rolls to spread his guys out or needs to stand still so he can shoot and pray to do some damage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Truesilver armor? Oh.. My.. God? Come get my tank.. Making landraiders laugh at daemon princes.. What a S6 attack back at the Daemon Prince of Nurgle who's eatign your tanks? Not worth the cost. As for DS, what Warp Quake will do is gain a round as it will limit the distance to DSing outside 12". If you keep it up, it'll stop Flamers coming down off icons and roasting a GKSS the moment they land. But it won't help anything else in the army and exposed Purifiers are rife for destruction by Flamers DSing off of a DPN (or other) Icon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 If you can take your business to another store, you should do so. The owner is a dink. He has no business telling people what they can and cannot play. And if he thinks GKs are overpowered he has NO IDEA AT ALL how to play the game properly. I like the new codex quite a bit, but it is definitely the weakest 5th edition codex yet released (outside of a couple of builds specifically abusing Coteaz). Given equally good generals and truly competitive lists from any of the other 5e codexes (e.g., SM v GK, IG v GK, etc.), I'll lay odds on the non-GK army. As with the DH codex before it, the GK codex will only shine in the hands of top players. +++++ On the subject of GKs "killing off" daemon players: don't believe a word of it. The Daemons codex was always weak. Always. And while GKs have a slight edge over them compared to all other codexes, the edge is only slight. Daemons will always have numbers on us (just like all other armies will as well), and that goes quite a long ways. Everything I said about 5e codexes vs GKs in my above comment goes triple for when they face Daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 GK killing off daemons no. Sure the daemon players will have to adjust their playing style against the grey knights it's still not game changing for them. For starters the prefered enemy is ballenced perfectly against the fact that GK have power weapons. What do daemons care about the least, you guessed it. Also it's fluffy, if there is one army that GK should be good against it's daemons. As it has already been pointed out flamers will kill GK like they kill anything else in the game. Unless you take the halberds (which I'm not going to) Slaanesh still goes first. Those rending wounds will hurt the GK just as much (if not more due to the higher points costs) as anyone else. Really the only Daemon list that I think should be worried is fatecrusher and well it'll teach those players not to be a cheesy git. The army that is worried about the GK are the nids. The purifiers will eat gaunts for breakfast, and the warrior equivalants will drop like flies to the S8 riflemans that people are building. But even then that's probably not an all corners list. If your manager feels the need to ban a book hows about wolves, because to people like him they are so much better than standard marines only cheaper. And well I wouldn't play in a store that banned necron and sisters armies full stop. Sure they haven't been updated in a while but really when was anyone scared of necrons? And with SoB the only problem I can forsee with them is the Sisters player getting incredibly bored having to explain the 4 pages of rules from the codex to play the game (can you tell I play WH yet?). Random Guy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2689970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshrug Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I like the new codex quite a bit, but it is definitely the weakest 5th edition codex yet released (outside of a couple of builds specifically abusing Coteaz). Don't you think it's a little early to be calling whether or not GK is the "weakest" codex in 5E so far? Pure theory often misses practicalities that become obvious during play (especially over long periods of time), to say nothing of the possibility of people digging up degenerate new tricks from an untested book. I wouldn't want to be a Chaos Daemons player right now, but then again, I don't think I'd want to be a Chaos Daemons player period. It just isn't really a competitive army, so while this does hurt it, it's a drop in the bucket compared to how much, say, having to fight the first few turns with half of the army, chosen at random screws CD players over. -Stormshrug Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2690016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Before i would just sit and shoot Daemons and allow them to assault me cos they ALWAYS had to roll difficult terrain and would go down to I1. Now that is a power u need to cast, and are in fact encouraged to charge them with Psyk-out grenades, rad grenades and the unit wide daemonbane rules. The playstyle of Grey Knights vs Daemons is entirely different now Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2690032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamCaboose Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 There must be a lot of bad deamon players out there or something. Our local deamon player runs rampant at tournies. The only time I've seen him lose is when he rolls that dreaded 1 for what half comes in first and then his fateweaver mishapped turn 2. It's a fatecrusher list with skarbrand and fiends thrown in. I don't see how halberd knights will make much difference against fatecrusher lists. Ok you strike first and you reroll your 1 attack (assuming its GKSS), you still need 4s to hit and 5s to wound. A 10 man squad will be lucky to survive 5 crushers (even without fateweaver near by) around. Purifiers may be a different story of course :tu: . The only thing in the codex I saw that really gives Daemons the middle finger is warp quake, and even that will do more wonders against dreadpods than daemons. If anyone should be mad about the new GK codex its nids. A whole army of suck out your soul force weapons to laugh at your over priced MCs. Just my thoughts from a die hard wolf player. Caboose Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2690114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Not if you give him some fun rules to play with! http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/02/some-sp...our-daemon.html I think I made this thread here somewhere.. no idea where it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2690126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 A lot of good feedback out there.. About the store The manager comes off as sort of a (exploitative). He played Warhammer from Rogue Trader all the way up to 3rd edition. He doesnt really play anymore and I consider him more of a hobbyist. He is a pro painter and has won a golden daemon. Some of this models have been featured in white dwarf. When it comes to painting and modeling. This guy is pro. He can paint things faster than anyone I have ever seen and to a quality that is up to par with DV8. He makes judgements on the game despite the fact that he doesnt play. The judgement is based off two friends of his that do activly play the game and both are VERY good players. The three of them stand behind the fluff more than the tourny style and it wasnt until I really pushed for tourney play that we had a comp. environment. It is the ONLY store within 100 miles traveling any road. Again not really trying to defend the guy but he isnt that bad you just have to understand that he has a much different outlook on the game or hobby than most people. Especially those of us on these forums. Grey Knights Codex These are all really good comments and feedback. Maybe I can use some of the reasoning used here to help explain why he should not ban the army. I did get him to the point where he said he wants to see the army play on the table first. This should go better. I agree that flamers are really a good unit to take and will counter most power armor units and yes power weapons galore.. But the preferred enemy means more wounds to save on those so/so invulnerable saves on the daemons. I am not familier with the fatecrusher list but it sounds gross. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2690739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 ...I like the new codex quite a bit, but it is definitely the weakest 5th edition codex yet released (outside of a couple of builds specifically abusing Coteaz). Given equally good generals and truly competitive lists from any of the other 5e codexes (e.g., SM v GK, IG v GK, etc.), I'll lay odds on the non-GK army. I would disagree; they new Grey Knight book certainly isn't the weakest, but it definitely isn't the easiest codex to use/master. Most players who fall prey to "shiny toy syndrome" will suffer when using the book because of just how expensive everything is. Only the top players capable of optimizing their lists to perfection will be able to use the Grey Knight codex to its full potential. As with the DH codex before it, the GK codex will only shine in the hands of top players. Agreed. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2691936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yep i've played GK's a long time now and still suck at it and i'll keep sucking at it. But I have fun that's what matters. And I don't see the GK's evolving even close to an 'auto-win' button. Not in the least... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2691938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Validar Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Banning codex is just about always wrong. An entire codex simply can't be that powerful. You may put certain limitations on the best units in a dex, giving harder restrictions on really powerful codici and going easy on the medicore ones (called armyselection, you can most likely find tons of examples by a simple google search)... As for autowin vs deamons I have found that Null Zone from C:SM pretty much does it. When I play deamons I always choose another power simply because it is boring to steamroll because of a single power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2692046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yowsaman Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 it will alway's come down to the dice you roll. you can even the odds with some nifty stuff but that will mean "zipp" if you roll a crappy hand. a deamon army is deadly in the right hands so will be a GK army. greetz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224865-gw-killed-daemons-off-entirely/#findComment-2692052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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