Marmande Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I never used the words 'suck badly' but it's a contingency that's annoying to plan around - I want to USE my HQs, not just pay a tax on unlocking Purifiers as troops. What's worse is that there isn't even a fluff justification given (or something like Feel No Pain or Eternal Warrior) to help. You cannot hyperlink to the GW site anyway. It redirects you to the home page. How hard is it for you to go on GW site yourself and go to the advance orders section and read it? Then say it's in the blog post. I wasn't aware being able to telepathically know where quoted text came from on the internet (or White Dwarf, if that had been the case) was all the rage these days. :P The redirecting occurs when someone from, say, the UK version of the GW website links it to someone in the in US. From my experience, anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Because he's a killing machine once in close combat, that's why. How do you get him there Matt? And that is the crux of the problem. He may be amazing in combat, but a decent opponent will dedicate one or two lascannon shots in his direction and he will die. Even with that I would almost consider him worth it, if not for grand strategy. With G/Strat guaranteeing at least one scoring Purifier squad, I really don't see the need for every unit to score. Assuming most lists will take a GM, for a little more than Crowe you could add a second GM to G/Strat at least two units (of course, on average each G/Strat roll nets you two [66% chance]). GKSS with psybolt ammo and 2 psycannons make amazing objective holders. They can pump out S5 @ 30" and can hold their own if something get through to assault. I can see 2 full Purifier squads and 2 full GKSS squads in my list, with G/Strat giving the purifiers either Scout or Scoring depending on the game. Crowe is just a points sink that will at best provide a distraction for your opponent to shoot a few high strength shots at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 It's understandable having him as a non-ic but like, say Mephiston or the Sanguinor, he needs to be self-sufficient enough to achieve this. Should have made him faster or harder to kill. Repeated it so many times before - if he'd had a personal teleporter (even at an extra cost) he would have been a more wiley choice to take. As he is - other HQ units will avoid him easily enough. What's the point in all his 'killing machine' abilities then?.. -In that sense, I feel like Crowe costs me 100pts.-For 100 pts, I've got a guy that can go toe-to-toe with a similar 100pts SM captain and will probably beat him. Even if the SM captain charges and get FC and re-rolls, I can "turtle up" and weather the attack. Even if he does kill me, I bring him with me most of the time. Heck, Marneus Calgar, Drago or any other similar SC would fear him in CC because even if they win, they lose 66% of the time (88% if they kill Crowe the turn he charges!) -I've also got a guy that can kill 12-13 Orks in a mob before the CC even begins or bring the Klaw nobz down to hell, leaving that big blob neutered. The price I've got to pay for this is that I must not let him be shot down (with a 2+/4+ save, I should be able to do that - or even keep him out of LOS or in reserves or outflanking w/scout!). It's better (not crucial) that I assault rather than be assaulted (which is true of almost any unit in 40K). I say better, because even if I get assault by a dedicated assault unit (bar assault termies and their 3++ save), I'll drag the same amount of point down with me either through CF or Heroic Sacrifice. Is he the great "must always take him" Crowe? No. But does he "Suck badly"? Also no! I'd rather have him than "break the bank cuz I cost the same as 10 purifiers w/psycannons Draigo" My two cents on Crowe! Phil If those are the qualities you're looking for it sounds like you just want a vanilla brotherhood-champion. :D Getting back the subject, it seemed like Mr. Ward purposely dodged talking about the 'Keeper of Anarch' rule. Something tells me he wouldn't be surprised at the reaction if Crowe came without it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Then say it's in the blog post. I wasn't aware being able to telepathically know where quoted text came from on the internet (or White Dwarf, if that had been the case) was all the rage these days. Apologies. I got to it form the link in the other thread, and didn't think about needing to link back to it. Soz. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 If those are the qualities you're looking for it sounds like you just want a vanilla brotherhood-champion. ;) That's basically what I get, except that one has 2 wounds and a sword that rends on 4+ :yes: Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Apologies. I got to it form the link in the other thread, and didn't think about needing to link back to it. Soz. ;) No worries. :eek Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyking Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I understand, really I do, but seriously. Bad enough Crowe is as bad as we feared he'd be (seriously, Draigo has more justification rules- AND fluff-wise), but it's annoying to hear about it and not be able to see it for yourself. I guess at least a Grandmaster can make him Scoring. That's literally it. :P I really can't wrap my mind around "Crowe Sucks"... He isn't great, but the way I see it, he's the best GK SC... Let's look at it like this: -I'd pay 50 pts to make my purifiers scoring (let's say via some banner or by paying 15pts/units or etc). -In that sense, I feel like Crowe costs me 100pts. -For 100 pts, I've got a guy that can go toe-to-toe with a similar 100pts SM captain and will probably beat him. Even if the SM captain charges and get FC and re-rolls, I can "turtle up" and weather the attack. Even if he does kill me, I bring him with me most of the time. Heck, Marneus Calgar, Drago or any other similar SC would fear him in CC because even if they win, they lose 66% of the time (88% if they kill Crowe the turn he charges!) -I've also got a guy that can kill 12-13 Orks in a mob before the CC even begins or bring the Klaw nobz down to hell, leaving that big blob neutered. The price I've got to pay for this is that I must not let him be shot down (with a 2+/4+ save, I should be able to do that - or even keep him out of LOS or in reserves or outflanking w/scout!). It's better (not crucial) that I assault rather than be assaulted (which is true of almost any unit in 40K). I say better, because even if I get assault by a dedicated assault unit (bar assault termies and their 3++ save), I'll drag the same amount of point down with me either through CF or Heroic Sacrifice. Is he the great "must always take him" Crowe? No. But does he "Suck badly"? Also no! I'd rather have him than "break the bank cuz I cost the same as 10 purifiers w/psycannons Draigo" My two cents on Crowe! Phil With that 2+/4++ rerollable, he's probably the best tarpit unit in the game. Cleansing flame just makes it cooler, as it allows him to "retaliate" without losing his defense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Still holding out hope they'll make Crowe an IC in an FAQ or something. However, because he is not an Independent Character, Crowe must always fight alone. Sorry to burst your bubble Marmande, but it's never going to happen. People whined and pined for the new Blood Angel characters to be IC's but that didn't happen either. These characters are meant to fight alone, and so they will. Yep. Just like what Ward did in the BA dex (and I think it was a mistake there too, characters should be ICs but reduce their rules to keep them from being overpowered). Lol, that would be the sensible option. BUT THEN MEPHISTON COULDN'T HAVE 5 WOUNDS Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 At 5 wounds, T6, and can potentially eat up to 24" of board space in a go Meph can afford to play hero. Same with the Sang' @ 3++, EW who can eat up to 18" of space in a go. They actually work better imo as non-ICs. Sure both are more expensive but with their non-ic status it's a price worth paying. The only non-IC character BA players had any reason to moan about was Cpt. Tycho and even he can at least fleet. If those are the qualities you're looking for it sounds like you just want a vanilla brotherhood-champion. :) That's basically what I get, except that one has 2 wounds and a sword that rends on 4+ :D Phil True. All that in lieu of a PW that re-rolls to wound w/ potential to insta-death and a 3++ in assault. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yowsaman Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 i'm gust going to use him as a keeper of the flame model. and maybe... maybe in a huuuuge apoc battle i will use him as crow as he kinda "blends in" with the crowed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Gw seems to be favoring the idea of useless Characters in the dex. Although Crowe might not be as useless as the DE character Kheradruakh the Decapitator (dont try to pronounce its awkward name). Hes just a case of "he appears, hes shot, and hes left the table". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Not being an IC hurts (quite a lot) of course, but that's not the only problem i'm having with him: Do I really want a character which can own Horde units, fights decently against normal infantry units and which can potential kill big things too? Not really I'm afraid; Purifiers do all these jobs already... (well except having a good chance of killing EW Models after they died themselves :o ) That's really the biggest problem I'm having with him, he's not even that usefull to my army! A libririan does all kinds of stuff for your whole army, while Crowe gives you more of the same. But he's still rather killy and I think it's not that bad when you just try to hide him behind your rhinos (you all do take rhinos right?) while you move into midfield. But he's still kind of a tax which you pay to make your purifiers scoring... And at the moment I don't know excactly how big that tax is; especially because taking him makes it harder to also take a Libby (which I pretty much want in every list) and still keeping your list balanced enough. (below 2k at least) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosPhoenix Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Crowe is often shown in formation with a squad of Purifiers (and often not). Like here http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...160311_2_XL.jpg but since there are 11 guys in front of the Rhino, I think Matt didn't forget about him not being an IC :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Even if he's not joined to the unit, you can put a "bubble" of purifiers around him. Better yet, put a bubble of GKSS. They'll prevent him being assaulted (unless your opponent assaults the GKSS first and then either try to multiple assault or assault with a second unit, both of which can be mostly avoided through good placement of models. Then, if you GKSS get assaulted, Crowe is perfectly placed to counter-assault next turn! True. All that in lieu of a PW that re-rolls to wound w/ potential to insta-death and a 3++ in assault. Yes, also true, but I'll raise you a "cleansing flame". No vanilla brotherhood champion can compare to that! :) Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2691992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearden441 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think i missed where Crowe gets a 3++ in assault, can someone please explain, because he is very much looking better and better as a counter assault unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2692042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA.Rauk Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Crowe doesn't get 3++ in assault. He doesn't even have a power weapon. His sword just counts as a normal CCW, and he happens to rend on a 4+. Not really sure what they were thinking with him, but I was willing to deal with him if he at least had a force weapon (considering GKSS have one.) but he doesn't, so honestly I've given up on him there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2692063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearden441 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Ah, i probably misconstrued some of the information then, reading and working isn’t the best idea Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2692086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Actually, that was Oiad pointing out that a vanilla champion had 3++ while Crowe only ( :P ) had 4++ Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2692109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosPhoenix Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Even if he's not joined to the unit, you can put a "bubble" of purifiers around him. Better yet, put a bubble of GKSS. They'll prevent him being assaulted (unless your opponent assaults the GKSS first and then either try to multiple assault or assault with a second unit, both of which can be mostly avoided through good placement of models. Then, if you GKSS get assaulted, Crowe is perfectly placed to counter-assault next turn! Phil yes thats right. I'm more concerned about the fact that the bubble won't protect him from shooting (at least not better than his iron halo). And the bubble has a transport, which he doesn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2692249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 i'm thinking of running a librarian with the summoning then just warping him in and hoping for the best ~Gil :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2692252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Indeed, if you can afford it. Amongst Purifier lists I imagine we'll see quite a few dual HQ formations popping up to take advantage. Yes, also true, but I'll raise you a "cleansing flame". No vanilla brotherhood champion can compare to that! ;) Fine, you called me out. *grumpy* And you still had WS8/I6 left! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2692338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Except the big thing your missing is 40k revolves around three principles, none of which Crowe works well with; - Moving into range to shoot/charge (often quite quickly for mechanised armies) - Shooting the ever-loving paste out of said enemy once in range and/or - Charging and steam-rollering said enemy unit In the case of movement, Crowe is left in the dust by everyone, because HE CAN'T JOIN SQUADS, WHICH IS THE STUPIDEST RESTRICTION ON A CHARACTER. Mephiston and Sanguinor (closest analogues) both have jump packs and Eternal Warrior, so they happily eat lascannon while flying up with Libby Dreads. Srsly, where does he go? You have to buy a transport, then give up said ride to accommodate his 'sorry I'm a failure, so i don't wanna infect you with it'. Alternatively, you can footslog, but then he gets left behind (unless you slow to let him catch up, which defeats the purpose of mechanising). In the shooting phase, Crowe is sniper bait. Every lascannon, railgun, etc will be gunning for him. He's an easy KP in Annhilation, and he's annoying enough in close-combat (and such an obvious target) that most people won't resist shooting him to death. Guard will have a field day. In close-combat, he's pretty good as a tarpit, but his bonuses to the enemy are ridiculous (especially if the enemy contacts him and a friendly squad, hooray free Furious Charge and re-rolls!). Rending on a 4+ sounds nice, until you realise THE ENTIRE FRIGGING ARMY HAS FORCE WEAPONS. Worst character in recent memory. I only take him because I need his immensely superior friends, the Purifiers. I imagine them tying his bootlaces together on the Strike Cruiser, then returning to find him still struggling with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2724027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Mephiston, unlike the Sanguinor, does not have Eternal Warrior. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2724047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skryeguy1 Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 gotta take it further, he is t6 so lascannons and missiles won't instant death him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2724066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Despite the fact that Crowe has glaring weaknesses - you still have to use him if you want to take Purifiers as troops... so the real question is HOW do you use him effectively? I would think the best way to try to get some kind of redeeming value out of Crowe himself is to use a GM in a list that he's in... the Grand Strategy can't apply to Independent Characters... but he's not an Independent Character so HE can be the beneficiary of a GS rule. There are two scenarios where this MIGHT actually be useful... 1) Objective Games: Assuming no better options are available, make him a scoring unit. Put him into reserve, use psychic communion to try to keep him there as long as possible, and late in the game have him run on... if at all possible hop aboard a Rhino or something... and get on to a nearby home objective. It would free up the rest of your force to advance forward and fight for objectives away from deployment zone. 2) Stationary Armies: Give him the scout USR so he can outflank. If he's outflanking then you can treat him like he's your army's assassin. Sure you go -1 I and don't get Move Through Cover, but he's much more survivable to weight of fire and non-PW attacks, and not any less survivable than the other assassins. He doesn't compare to a Vindicare for obvious reasons, but against the other three he can be just as effective in his own way. Roll him up on the enemy's flank and charge something or contest an objective... again using psychic communion to your benefit... and perhaps its possible to actually get something out of him. Its an expensive proposition for sure but in my opinion its the best way to get some kind of value out of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224923-matt-ward-on-crowe/page/2/#findComment-2724089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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