Brainstorming thread for Nascent Chapter

[Dualhammers]

So I posted here asking for suggestions about where to start with writing my own DIY chapter and seems like the general idea is throw out an outline and see what sticks. I don't have a whole outline at the moment, but I do have a smattering of ideas I want to run by the rest of the group to see what is interesting and what isn't.

 

1. An emphasis on story and record keeping. I originally described it as an oral tradition, but it's more of a hybrid. Each Battle Brother is required to keep a written story of their own life which is added to the joint history of the Chapter. New initiates to a squad are required to learn the stories of each of their Squad-mates and cannot be promoted to full Space Marine until they have memorized them. So while the stories are written down - in case a Battle Brother dies before telling his story - the goal is for each Brother to know the tales of the Chapter by heard.

 

2. An uneasy relationship with the Inquisition. This stems from the first part. Because they have a borderline obsession with stories and having a full story of the chapter it means they are adherently against secrecy. Not in terms of military secrecy - such as coded messages and secure Vox channels - but in terms of remembering the names dates and actions of brothers in battle. Because the Inquisition often requires their actions to be kept secret from all but the most highest officiants of the Ordo, this chapter has found itself at odds with them when the Inquisition as forced them to assist. Maybe even go so far as to have those who have worked with the Inquistion - such as the Death Watch - to be required to take a Vow of Silence when they return in penance for not having been able to write anything down while being in the Deathwatch. Perhaps I could incorporate this idea into justification for a Veteran squad of silent warriors.

 

3. A long-term approach to battle/life - originally thinking of some sort of preplanned psychological warfare but after discussing it with members decided it didn't really fit. Still looking for other ideas.

 

 

4. Continuing the idea of long-term thinking and a emphasis on history, how do people feel about a Dreadnought being a Librarian on Chaplain? Not sure how this would work in a match (Probably I'd just have a Dreadmodel painted as a Chaplain or Librarian) but my idea fluff wise is that this Chapter doesn't have any interest in using Pyskers (or perhaps for some reason they have a very low incidence of Psykers), so the Librarian is really just the Battle Brother with the most complete recollection of the Chapter's story. A Dreadnought seems like the obvious choice as a Chief Librarian that case.

 

I will probably edit this post as I add more ideas and get critiques. For now, I shall open this up to C&C.

 

(( 3/15/2011 Edited after the first two replies to add a fourth idea.

3/16/2011 @8:3PM CST - Edited to scrap the idea psychological warfare idea))

[Captain Forcystus]

1. An emphasis on story and record keeping. I originally described it as an oral tradition, but it's more of a hybrid. Each Battle Brother is required to keep a written story of their own life which is added to the joint history of the Chapter. New initiates to a squad are required to learn the stories of each of their Squad-mates and cannot be promoted to full Space Marine until they have memorized them. So while the stories are written down - in case a Battle Brother dies before telling his story - the goal is for each Brother to know the tales of the Chapter by heard.

 

I cant speak for everyone, but to me this sounds like a cool idea with the way it works with the squads us it possibly fosters stronger bonds within the squad and making them a more tightly knit group.

 

2. An uneasy relationship with the Inquisition. This stems from the first part. Because they have a borderline obsession with stories and having a full story of the chapter it means they are adherently against secrecy. Not in terms of military secrecy - such as coded messages and secure Vox channels - but in terms of remembering the names dates and actions of brothers in battle. Because the Inquisition often requires their actions to be kept secret from all but the most highest officiants of the Ordo, this chapter has found itself at odds with them when the Inquisition as forced them to assist. Maybe even go so far as to have working with the Inquisition come with some form of repentance rite to be performed by the Battle Brother who assisted them.

 

Uneasy relations with the Inquisition tends to be fairly normal for the Astartes since the Inquisition has less control over them. So all in all doesnt seeem like it will conflict with the existing fluff.

[soddinnutter]

1. sounds brilliant. I can not overstate how awesome that is as a concept.

 

2. the most obvious thing that springs to mind in the area of mutual distrust is the Deathwatch.maybe in times past the Inquisition took marines from your chapter and got really annoyed when they wrote everything down despite the oath of silence.

[Dualhammers]

2. the most obvious thing that springs to mind in the area of mutual distrust is the Deathwatch.maybe in times past the Inquisition took marines from your chapter and got really annoyed when they wrote everything down despite the oath of silence.

 

Yeah, I was thinking about the Deathwatch Members and I the idea that those marines who go to the Deathwatch do keep the vow of silence, but their penance for not telling the Story is that when they return they must take a vow of silence - thus they can never speak the story again. Maybe end up turning this into some kind of Veteran squad of silent warriors.

 

((Edited Original post to reflect this fleshing out of ideas))

[Donkey Kong]

3. A long-term approach to battle. Decades or Centuries of planning for battles so that they make sure they always succeed. A particular image that came into my head is say during a join Crusade along side the Imperial Guard this Chapter would request the Imperial Guard to spread rumors of the coming of the chapter decades before they arrive on the planet, so that their coming seems almost like fulfillment of prophecy. This would make special use of their long-term planning and turn it into a terrifying psychological weapon.

 

Unless this is being done with Librarians and visions of the future, this concept completely disagrees with ... well everything. Space Marines don't fight extended battles, they're shock troopers. They don't have the ammunition or manpower to do much more. They don't have the luxury of sticking around for decades either.

 

Battles really aren't going to be lasting decades. The Imperial Guard is the Hammer of the Emperor. The longest battle I can think of in any Warhammer context is in the novel (ironically titled given the context of this conversation) Fifteen Hours, in which Guardsmen are fighting a war that has lasted ten years. The Siege of Vraks lasted twelve years, and keep in mind Vraks was built to be an impenetrable fortress.

 

World War 1 lasted 4 years. World War 2 lasted 6 years. Vietnam lasted 18 years. The Hundred Years War had about 125 years of actual fighting, but that really can't compare considering how much technology has evolved since then. When the hammer comes crashing down, it shouldn't last much longer than a decade, and, under most circumstances, end in less than a couple months. The Guard has one advantage over us, and that's that they're indiscriminate. Unless it's a liberation effort, when the Guard goes to war everything is going to die.

 

The other two ideas are fine.

 

Edit: Idea number 4

 

4. Continuing the idea of long-term thinking and a emphasis on history, how do people feel about a Dreadnought being a Librarian on Chaplain? Not sure how this would work in a match (Probably I'd just have a Dreadmodel painted as a Chaplain or Librarian) but my idea fluff wise is that this Chapter doesn't have any interest in using Pyskers (or perhaps for some reason they have a very low incidence of Psykers), so the Librarian is really just the Battle Brother with the most complete recollection of the Chapter's story. A Dreadnought seems like the obvious choice as a Chief Librarian that case.

 

They already exist:

Chaplain Dreadnought

Librarian Dreadnought

 

It doesn't matter though, because your tabletop should not influence your background.

 

As far as no Psykers go, you need to explain why. Librarians do more than record Chapter History. They can be used to communicate and have a powerful presence on the battlefield. Plus it makes no sense for you to have a Librarian Dreadnought and no Librarians.

 

Dreadnoughts are not good choices for record keepers considering how they spend most of their time asleep. Keeping the history is the purpose of the Chapter Librarium. If they're writing everything down anyway, it shouldn't be very hard for the Chapter to transcribe each brother's, for lack of a better word, notebook.

[Leonaides]

If you mean a dreadnought as the Head Record Keeper, then that'd be fine - consider Bjorn the Fell-handed. Every thousand years, he is awoken to see whats happening. He uploads the last thousand years of sagas into his memory banks, and hears the Chapter Wolf Priests recite the older ones - checking that errors havent crept into the tellings. This is a very valuable task - Chapters relying on oral records are playing Chinese Whispers across millenia - things will go wrong. Maybe a single word here or there, maybe a slight inflection change, but eventually these errors could change the meaning of the story.

[soddinnutter]

I like the points in 4.

 

A Librarian that is actually a Librarian and not a Battle-Psyker.

 

You could be unique in having non-psyker Librarians.

 

Maybe your chapter could take the Black Templars approach to psykers. They have their place in a well ordered society and that place is not wearing power armour or holding a weapon.

 

Maybe your chapters Astropath Choir could have the job of psychic verification of the Eternal Story and by making sure none of the marines care exaggerating to make things more interesting.

[Dualhammers]

@king hong kong

 

I may just be confused on the use of the IG and the Astartes but do SM just sit around waiting for the IG to call them in? What do they do with all that time besides training? Certainly SMs have some sort of long term goals?

 

The idea for preparing the way for the chapter was from reading about the Sanjay worlds crusade. The individual battles may have been short but the planning for which planet to hit how and with what must have taken a long time. Isn't it possible they preplanned their need for SMs? If so it is that window I am talking about utilizing for seeding fear of the impending invasion. If not decades maybe years. If im totally off my rocker I will ditch the idea but I want to make sure I understand a not better than 'thiz undermines everythibg' and 'batlles are short').'

 

Bad internet at the coffee shop so ill check back tonight.

 

-sent from droidx

 

@king hong kong

 

I may just be confused on the use of the IG and the Astartes but do SM just sit around waiting for the IG to call them in? What do they do with all that time besides training? Certainly SMs have some sort of long term goals?

 

The idea for preparing the way for the chapter was from reading about the Sanjay worlds crusade. The individual battles may have been short but the planning for which planet to hit how and with what must have taken a long time. Isn't it possible they preplanned their need for SMs? If so it is that window I am talking about utilizing for seeding fear of the impending invasion. If not decades maybe years. If im totally off my rocker I will ditch the idea but I want to make sure I understand a not better than 'thiz undermines everythibg' and 'batlles are short').'

 

Bad internet at the coffee shop so ill check back tonight.

 

-sent from droidx

[soddinnutter]

Psychological warfare worked well for the Night Lords.

 

And the Space Marines do very often sit around waiting for the IG to send an astropathic message to the effect of "I can haz halp plox!?!?"

 

They may have chapter goals. But they have to offer assistance when called on. Or rather they don't. But if they don't have to help the Mechanicus doesn't have to give them any now Power Armour.

 

There are no shortage of battles to choose from as no IG commander is going to turn down the assistance of a brotherhood of super soldiers even more fanatical than they are.

 

So they can choose their battles to subtly manipulate the grand scheme of things. Making sure a certain IG commander rises to prominence whilst another falls from grace. Ensuring the safety and prosperity of one Navigator house above all others. Letting a species of xeno escape complete annihilation if it means they can be used as a speed bump the next time the Tyranids show up. helping certain factions with in the Inquisition rise to dominance so long as they always remember their old Astartes friends when something needs a blind eye turning to it. Courting the favor of a Mechanicus brotherhood that is good at fixing gene-seed flaws at the expense of one that can build Terminator Armour.

[Donkey Kong]

KHK will do nicely.

 

Space Marines are shock troopers. Everyone wants them everywhere, but every Chapter is functionally independent.

 

The Imperium is fixated on the long term goal of survival and expansion, this applies to basically every entity from the politicians to the soldiers. The Guard does not call in the Space Marines. You can't call in the Space Marines. You ask the Space Marines for aid, and if they feel like it they'll help. They are an authority unto themselves.

 

The Codex Astartes is more of a collection of the works of the best tacticians in Imperial history (including the now Traitor Primarchs). Space Marine strategy is by and large based off of the tactics already in the codex, modified to meet the needs of the battlefield. Space Marines are equipped to fight in any environment anyway.

 

The idea for preparing the way for the chapter was from reading about the Sanjay worlds crusade. The individual battles may have been short but the planning for which planet to hit how and with what must have taken a long time. Isn't it possible they preplanned their need for SMs? If so it is that window I am talking about utilizing for seeding fear of the impending invasion. If not decades maybe years. If im totally off my rocker I will ditch the idea but I want to make sure I understand a not better than 'thiz undermines everythibg' and 'batlles are short').'

 

The what?

 

The Imperium has made 3 famous crusades (off the top of my head anyway): The Macharian Crusade, the Sabbat World Crusade, and the Damocles Gulf Crusade. All involved Space Marines who assembled to aid the crusade when asked. A crusade is far different from a planetary campaign though. The biggest (Macharian and Sabbat World) include Warmasters at their head, these are Imperial military masterminds. They have enough of a reputation to get a Chapter to listen and send a company or two. However, they're still only asking, and Chapters can change their mind. They might get a bad reputation for it, but who cares? They have two hearts, three lungs, and power armor, and they certainly don't.

 

Fear campaigns. There was a little conflict not too long ago known as the Cold War. One of the issues that occurred in the time period was known as the Cuban Missile Crisis. For lack of better words, Missiles in Cuba terrified the United States, and missiles in Turkey terrified the Soviet Union. An Imperial fleet is a missile silo that can hit anywhere at any time. Space Marines have their own fleet, and their ships are more or less designed to bomb planets. They're designed to be terror weapons. Going down like a Night Lord and scaring a populace into compliance is only pushing the point, and any Space Marine squad could do it given the time.

 

Put very simply, Space Marines do not have the time to waste sticking around somewhere. They arrive, fight, win, and leave. Then they go somewhere else to do it all over again. The Sabbat World Crusade has several fronts and only a few Space marine Chapters between them. Space Marines were not on every planet, they were probably going to the toughest fights to break the toughest lines over and over again until the Imperium won. The Imperium doesn't always care about scaring an enemy. The point is to survive, and that requires winning. Fighting people with soiled trousers may make the second half of that easier, but it's still secondary.

 

During the Great Crusade, the Word Bearers were chastised for wasting time.

 

Put very simply, the reason Space Marines aren't on call, or can't be on call is because all of the enemies of the Imperium usually aren't making schedules. Battles and Campaigns are fluid. You can coordinate taking Planet Z all you want, but if a Tyranid tendril happens by and the Space Marines must fight to protect the Imperium, tough.

[Ace Debonair]

Put very simply, the reason Space Marines aren't on call, or can't be on call is because all of the enemies of the Imperium usually aren't making schedules. Battles and Campaigns are fluid. You can coordinate taking Planet Z all you want, but if a Tyranid tendril happens by and the Space Marines must fight to protect the Imperium, tough.

True enough.

 

One option you might have is your marines occasionally deliberately letting solitary or very small groups of enemies go so they can run gibbering to their friends about how quickly all their fellow traitors/xenos just got splattered by the Imperium, particularly Chapter X.

 

It's not quite the same as pre-emptively scaring your enemies, but would sure be fun to write about. :)

[Dualhammers]

@KHK

 

I meant the Sabbat world crusade but the auto correction feature on my smart phone is not well versed in Imperial history. I apogize if this caused you to waste your breath explaining things you thought I did not understand.

 

A couple more questions on the subject before I drop it; just for the sake of having good background information.

 

 

Where does it state the World Bearers were chastised for wasting time? Can you direct me to a piece of fluff or a specific codex book?

if the world bearers were chastised for wasting time were the ultramarines chastised for the same reasons. I've read that the Ultramarine Primarch would not leave a world until it was productive. Isn't that time wasted for a shock force?

 

Were the Night Lords chastised for their tactics of terror for reasons other than their brutality? Was it considered a waste of time? If so can you link me to a specific quote or section?

 

@KHK

 

I meant the Sabbat world crusade but the auto correction feature on my smart phone is not well versed in Imperial history. I apogize if this caused you to waste your breath explaining things you thought I did not understand.

 

A couple more questions on the subject before I drop it; just for the sake of having good background information.

 

 

Where does it state the World Bearers were chastised for wasting time? Can you direct me to a piece of fluff or a specific codex book?

if the world bearers were chastised for wasting time were the ultramarines chastised for the same reasons. I've read that the Ultramarine Primarch would not leave a world until it was productive. Isn't that time wasted for a shock force?

 

Were the Night Lords chastised for their tactics of terror for reasons other than their brutality? Was it considered a waste of time? If so can you link me to a specific quote or section?

[Donkey Kong]

I meant the Sabbat world crusade but the auto correction feature on my smart phone is not well versed in Imperial history. I apogize if this caused you to waste your breath explaining things you thought I did not understand.

 

My apologies. However, I think you helped me with making my own point about why Crusades are the exception to the rule when it comes to Marines working more in step with the Guard by mentioning it.

 

Where does it state the World Bearers were chastised for wasting time? Can you direct me to a piece of fluff or a specific codex book?

if the world bearers were chastised for wasting time were the ultramarines chastised for the same reasons. I've read that the Ultramarine Primarch would not leave a world until it was productive. Isn't that time wasted for a shock force?

 

Were the Night Lords chastised for their tactics of terror for reasons other than their brutality? Was it considered a waste of time? If so can you link me to a specific quote or section?

 

Word Bearers:

See PM.

I believe it is mentioned in Collected Visions, and I know it is mentioned in several of the Horus Heresy novels and shorts.

 

Ultramarines:

I don't believe so, but there's also the fact that the Ultramarines were a very large Legion and could spare the manpower to rebuild worlds. The Word Bearers were large as well, but I believe the issue was more of a combination of preaching and dedicating themselves to that instead of conquering.

 

Night Lords:

I don't believe so. Night Lords turned renegade almost exclusively because of the conflict between Dorn and Curze (The Dark King). World conquered by the legion were actually famous for their compliance, however, unlike the Ultramarines, they were ruled with more of a fear doctrine. Keep in mind that this is the Primarch who, in less than a lifetime, straightened out a world run by crime lords.

 

Someone else could probably help me where, I'm not very well versed in the Codex and Rulebook background, just Black Library.

[Dualhammers]

Thanks for the help so far. I am going to edit the top post to reflect the critiques - I agree with what you're saying KHK about Space Marines already being scary and being a surgical strike force so I will scratch the terror planning ideas. I just want to have some other aspect of their style to be affected by their focus on history, long-view ideas, and an emphasis on stories. It just doesn't make sense to me for them to carry around big books and that be the only aspect that is affected by that personal quirk. If they are going to revolve around these stories as a chapter - or at least have it be a major aspect of their culture - I want it to affect other areas.

 

I will keep thinking.

 

Changing gears to discuss the lack of psykers; how would you feel about the reason they have less Psykers than most chapters is because of a genetric trait in the people on their recruiting world? Something about the planet dulls the populace to the Warp. Not to the point of being Untouchables - they can still be affected quite readily by psykers - but resistant to mutation. Probably something to do with the biosphere of the planet or an element of the space surrounding the world. Does this seem legitimately plausible or just lazy on my part?

[Donkey Kong]

Changing gears to discuss the lack of psykers

 

You're over complicating it now. It's not hard at all to write it off as the recruiting world simply not having the sufficient psyker population to provide it for the Chapter. If you have a sort of psychic null zone, you'll be attracting unwanted attention from the Inquisition, an organization that already seems to have problems with your Chapter*.

 

My favorite IA, the Castigators, does not have psychic librarians, instead rotating battle brothers into the role of record keeper. However, the Castigators are based around an obsession with purity, extending to a belief that there should not be psykers in their chapter, and only tolerating psykers where they are needed, like the Black Templars.

 

Instead of asking how you can eliminate psykers, explain why you don't want a them. There are many routes you can go with this. Maybe they believe the Emperor's decree at Nikea should have been the be all end all. If they're into stories, that could be a huge factor.

 

Don't write off psykers, they have their uses as Librarians, as I've already said. However, don't let this stop you from sticking to your idea.

 

*Maybe you could use this to your advantage, two birds with one stone.

[Dualhammers]

I was confused, I guess, I thought sometimes Space Marines developed Psyker powers after they became SM. Nevermind then, guess there isn't any detail needed.

[soddinnutter]

Some marines do develop their psychic powers after they have already ascended.

 

The Ignean in the book Salamander instantly springs to mind. But they already have the psychic gene before they are transformed. They are born with it. but it is latent or massively undeveloped.

 

But there are gene-pools that have less psykers in them than others. In the last book of the Eisenhorn Trilogy the Eisenhorn Estate is attacked by mercenaries from a world that had absolutely no recorded instance of native psykers.

 

but it was not the planet that was to blame for this psychic deficiency. It was just a racial characteristic of the native populace.

[Arkangilos]

What was mentioned earlier about the Black Templars view on psykers seems like the most likely approach.

Maybe you have had a bad experiance with psykers? Some small rebellion? Or maybe to ease your relations with the inquisitors some so it did not turn into a full out war?

 

Your chapter also sounds a lot like the Space Wolves in their story telling and pride of their history. I like the idea of your Librarians not really being psykers. Maybe change their title from Librarian to Orators or something? Maybe the chief librarian would be the Master Orator. They could still be highly valued individuals with invaluable insight to war.

 

One way you could do the planning for years approach is using your scouts. You would have your scouts go into a region you planned to attack a few years in advance, map out the bases, and after the chapter felt they had enough intel on the region, they would send in the marines.

 

Some chapters do fight guerilla wars and wars of attrition. One such chapter would be the Raven Guard. Shrike himself was stuck behind enemy lines for a few years. In the years he was behind the lines, he crippled the Ork defenses and supply lines, ultimately bringing an end to the war. Your scouts could also be doing that while your chapter was enroute.

[Dualhammers]

I like that idea - maybe scouts all spend some time doing extensive recon of the worlds that the Space Marines protect.

 

One thought I have, giving more time to think about it, is maybe I reverse the roles - Librarians take care of the knoweldge of the chapter but it is the Chaplains that instill pride, right? What if I combine the caring for knowledge - their history - into the Chaplain role and then still have standard Psyker Librarians just be a part of that? The stories are meant to incite the Space Marines into battle.

 

The only reason I was de-emphasizing Psykers is I just don't enjoy using them, not because I want my Chapter to have a particular hatred for them.