Competitive non-mechanized marines

[Vincent Black Shadow]

Here's the theory I'm working from:

 

Vehicles give a big advantage in mobility and survivability, but also cost points. Is there a way to build a list and/or play (using any PA codex) that would be able to remove this advantage early, and thereafter have numerical superiority without the points sink that vehicles constitute?

 

Can an infantry-based army be kitted out in a way that will be able to reliably get into place to de-mech opponents without sacrificing the ability to deal with what is in those vehicles (or hordes for that matter)?

 

Drop podding sternguards and dreads with melta, deepstriking RAS/VV with melta bombs/weapons, tri-melta scouts/LSS, and then footslogging marines, scouts, etc. to follow up with rapid fire and plasma... etc.

 

I know the common refrain is go mech or go home, but I have to think that there is the possibility for an infantry list to even the field vs mech and then thereafter have superiority in numbers since they are designed to accomplish things on foot and haven't sunk points into transports for everything.

 

I think bike armies are a good example of how this can work... is there a way to make it work with jump infantry and/or drop pod assault?

 

This is theoryhammer, sure, but I'd prefer feedback from people with practical experience fielding or fighting against a list like this.

[muadib02]

Loganwing

 

or Long Fang Spam, a ton of grey hunters, and wolf scouts.

[Tech Brother Torgo]

You mentioned it in your post, bike armies can accomplish this goal. I've been using one for the last couple months and have been improving steadily in its unique approach to the appilcation of force. You won't outnumber the enemy, so it's still very different than a foot list, but T5, turbo boost saves and ability to move in and out of LOS/range accomplish many of the same things that transports do, all without sacrificing firepower. Shiny Rhino runs his list with assault marines as well, so perhaps he can comment on that portion. I could definitely see screening them with vindicators or do countercharge duty for a rifleman/typhoon frebase. Not so sure about pods though, since this commits a part of your force to a certain location on board, making the direction you will go with your bikes more predictable.

[Mysticaria]

Loganwing

 

or Long Fang Spam, a ton of grey hunters, and wolf scouts.

Loganwing with long fangs?

 

-Myst

[Something Wycked]

The problem with foot marines is being able to reach out and touch your opponent's back line; we're fairly well capped at 48" outside of vehicle weapons like the Stormraven, or artillery like the Thunderfire, or a Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer. Likewise, no mech means no HK missiles.

 

If you were to run an all-foot list with no transport, lists like firing line Tau or IG will take you apart before you reach midfield. Or, for that matter, my mech'd up Marines (with my "Thunder Twins" Vindicators) will do the same.

 

I have a lot of experience with this; one of my primary opponents is a Black Templar player who refuses to run a list without a 20 man squad with the Emperor's Champion and Helbrecht attached, and he runs them across the table at me.

 

Edit: Reread your post:

 

superiority in numbers since they are designed to accomplish things on foot and haven't sunk points into transports for everything.

 

But you bring up jump packs and drop pods and LSS and bikes... Those things are just as much of a point sink as just mech'ing up, without the benefits (or drawbacks) of encasing your troops in metal boxes. So there won't be any numerical advantages over a mech'ed army.

[spartan249]

The only way I've seen this work in any way was a gunline in the following config:

 

2000 pts "Footline"

HQ

Librarian: TDA w/SS, NZ & VoD, Epistolary - 190 pts

Troops

Scout Squad: 10 scouts w/ Rifles, Mlauncher - 150 pts

Scout Squad: 10 scouts w/ Rifles, Mlauncher - 150 pts

Scout Squad: 10 scouts w/ Rifles, Mlauncher - 150 pts

Scout Squad: 10 scouts w/ Rifles, Mlauncher - 150 pts

Elites

Terminator Squad: 10 Terminators, 2 Cyclones - 460 pts

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad: 10 Marines, 1 LC, 3 ML - 250 pts

Devastator Squad: 10 Marines, 1 LC, 3 ML - 250 pts

Devastator Squad: 10 Marines, 1 LC, 3 ML - 250 pts

 

This had the guns it needed to combat the mechanized spamming on even ground, and proved quite effective at resisting mechanized lists and anti-mech lists. However, it also fell prey to armies that were designed to wipe entire squads off the table at a time (Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG, etc).

 

While it's "competitive" in a sense, it's also a bit inefficient in terms of money spent and space taken up. Try it out if you wish, you only need 81 models to do it.

[Decoy]

HQ:

Logan Grimnar

Ragnar Blackmane

Rune Priest (stock)

 

ELITE:

 

8x Wolf Guard (6 w/ SS-TH, 2 w/ PF/CML, 2 w/CF/SS), Rhino (count as Troops)

1 Lone Wolf (Chainfist/SS)

1 Lone Wolf (Chainfist/SS)

 

 

Troops:

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, MotW, Banner , Rhino

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, MotW, Banner , Rhino

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Melta, MotW, Lasplas Razorback

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, MotW, Lasplas Razorback

10x Grey Hunters, 2x Plasma, MotW, Lasplas Razorback

 

 

FAST:

 

Land Speeder

Land Speeder

 

Heavy:

 

6x LF w/5 Plasma Cannons, Plasmagun, Lasplas Razorback

6x LF w/5 Plasma Cannons, Plasmagun, Lasplas Razorback

6x LF w/ 5 Lascannons, Melta, Lasplas Razorback

 

 

Ironically Mech itself, the point isn't to "Mech up", but to drive the transports up in a wall of Rhino-chassy, with the Speeders drawing fire. The infantry unloads in the center of the board, and any vehicles still alive "castle up" around them. Lone Wolves go on to Chainfist any vehicles moving slow enough while Infantry (and the two Plasmacannon squads) take potshots between the gaps of allied vehicles. If one vehicle goes down, another takes it's place. If I need to draw LoS to another targetted squad, I just move the vehicles beforehand to allow a gap through which to shoot with all the infantry. The entire time, Rune Priest is casting Storm Caller to keep the entire army in a state of 5+ cover, Infantry Goes to Ground against particularly difficult shots coming in, Logan sits back and switches between squads to apply any benefit they need. Ragnar sits in the front(-ish), ready to counterattack any assaulty elements that get through the line of vehicles (Gods help them if they can; I wouldn't know how.

 

This allows a multitude of various actions. Tank Shocking an incoming squad with two or three vehicles can split them down the middle, forcing them to waste a turn re-forming (or try a DoG attempt.) Tanks exploding in their midst due to firepower potentially causes wounds, but that job is mainly reserved for the Flamer Razors; Move up six, Tank Shock, flame at nicely ordered enemy lines. If re-mounting is needed, it's fully possible (I.E., something absolutely too big to break is incoming, or I need to grab objectives) but I've never had to do so.

 

 

This works remarkably well against mounted lists. The Storm Caller giving everything a 5+ really helps, and when the enemy is, at WORST, dealing a 4+ Cover (3+ if I Go To Ground) to the troops inside the square (thanks to intervening vehicles), I really don't have much to worry in terms of anti-armor. Even Vindicators don't scare me any more, even with all my army in a space less than 18" wide.

 

Likewise, with Grimnar kicking around in the center, he can give Tank Hunter to anything that is in a good position to kill stuff. Either that, or I can keep him back with my Long Fangs at my board edge, but he never seems to last there for long.

 

I can even close up the back ranks of vehicles if I desire to prevent my own boys from fleeing (Not that they would, with Logan kickin' around.)

 

If something breaks through the line, it won't see the light of another turn. EVER. (Nothing ever has.)

 

 

While it might not look strictly anti-armor, it's remarkably capable. With as many Lascannons as most other armies have tanks (not even counting Plasma for lighter vehicles or Chainfists on suicidal Lone Wolves), I've yet to have a problem with tanks, and most(normally all) of 'em are gone by the end of Turn 2.

 

 

 

ON EDIT: I know you're looking for a "non-mech" list, but really, one of the best ways to do Anti-Mech is with Wolves. We will almost always have more bodies on the field than other MeQs, even when we're meched up, and we'll certainly have more bodies on the field than other Meched-up lists.

[ShinyRhino]

So, you want a non-mech list...but can use pods and Storms? Jonestly, that's not non-mech, it's just different mech. Pods and Storms are delivery systems, just like Rhinos.

 

Now, if you want a non-Rhino army, I can understand your sentiment. I'm not a fan of the ubiquitous Rhino in 5th Edition, and so I run a biker-centric, all-fast list.

At any points level, I have my core of Bike Captain, and three biker squads. Various special and heavy weapon armaments, and Captian warger. Then I tack on Landspeeders, Assault Marines, a second HQ, an attack bike squadron, and recently a turret-only Predator. You can also mix Dreadnaughts into the list quite nicely for a solid firebase. I'd recommend at least two Dreads if you're going to take any at all. One is a first-turn casualty/killpoint.

 

Another option is to gopure body-heavy. Several 10-man scout squads, several assault Marine squads, a jumpy HQ, and several squads of Terminators. Will it wipe the floor with every list out there? Hell no. Will it be interesting and flexible to play? Hell yes.

[Wildfire]

Assuming you mean with vanilla marines: it's possible, just harder. The gunline is dead for 5th edition marines (and anyone else, really), but there are alternatives. Pods, bikers, scouts, all these things can help.

[ShinyRhino]

The gunline is dead for 5th edition marines (and anyone else, really

 

Pretty much true for anyone but Guard. The 5th Edition game formats really don't help a gunline in any way. Marines doubly so, because we lack long-ranged, high-S, low-AP ordnance. Our "artillery" is laughable in the form of the Whirlwind, and the Thunderfire Cannon. These two simply cannot sweep an objective clear of models, even with 5 full turns of shooting.

Guard artillery, on the other hand, can do so quite well. The crux of a gunline army these days is the ability to hold the objective(s) in your own zone, and smear the enemy off of theirs. Marines can't do that.

[Decoy]

The gunline is dead for 5th edition marines (and anyone else, really

 

Pretty much true for anyone but Guard.

 

Or Wolves.

[greatcrusade08]

Our "artillery" is laughable in the form of the Whirlwind, and the Thunderfire Cannon. These two simply cannot sweep an objective clear of models, even with 5 full turns of shooting.

 

I dunno, ive found the thunderfires to be pretty destructive.

 

the crux of this thread in my eyes is to be 'different' and i applaud anyone who takes the road less travelled, theres nothing worse IMO than everyone and his mum turning up with the same old vulkan mech lists.

on a different forum i recently posted a thread on what i considered big misconceptions of 40k driven by the interwebz, ill do a quick review now as its pertinent to this discussion.

 

when people discuss 'meta' as in metagaming they always take the stance it means to be competative and to win games.. the local meta is colloquially defined as the list that most people run, the most common enemy you face.

therefore if your local meta is meched space marines, then by building a list which counters mech marines youve given yourself an edge.. of course this to me is too much like tailoring which IMO is one of the biggest sins of wargaming.

the confusion comes because people assume that these popular lists (vulkan spam, shrike with hammernators, mech marines, etc) are the meta lists, i.e they are the best lists to take for competative games..

whether this is true or not the actual nature of metagaming means that the more people that play them the more ineffective they become (people become acclimatised to these lists)

 

metagaming is actually defined as going against the predefined strategies, basically thinking outside the box in order to win games.. therefore if everyone is suggesting vulkan lists and mech marines, the true metagamer would discard these lists right away. (becuase they want to do things differently in order to win)

and again i applaud the OP for reaching this conclusion.

 

i know people that run all scouts, all terminators, run bike lists, motf/dreadnought lists.. they are all very playable and can be made to be competative with a degree of hard work and commitment.

too many people want the easy score now-a-days (i sound like my dad now) and go straight to the interwebz "i win" lists... it saddens me to see

 

/rant

 

i suppose to directly answer the question, then yes you can make a competative non mech marine list.. generally if your using tac squads you want a transport (its thier best upgrade), so if you dont want mech my advice would be to leave the tac squads at home

[nurglez]

I run logan wing, I only own 3 drop pods, and I use these all the time, but these are the only vehicles I use in my lists (1500 and 2000 points). I own 2 landraiders but they cost as much as my squads, so they dont work for me, while my units are terminators, so a bit tougher then regular marines, they are always out numbered, but dropping down lets me put 8-10 termies where I want, over powering a section of the enemy and forcing them to react.

 

When I first started playing logan wing I foot slogged, and it was painfully slow for me, as I was used to mech.

 

I do find an advantage in not using vehicles, as one of my regular opponents uses 2 vendetta's and regularly pops my rhinos and vindicator (when I play deathguard), however the lack of movement from not having any vehicles is annoying, and while I sort of make up for it by dropping a few squads mostly where I want, I have to plan ahead in objective games.

 

I've also been toying with trying out a total foot slogging list (using codex space wolves), as I think this is one of the few codices that can do it (thanks to saga of hunter and storm caller, along with the option for a 15 blood claw squad to screen units and long fangs to provide long range fire).

 

I still love mech though, as with my deathguard army at 1500 points I have 6 units (dp, landraider, 3 rhinos and vindicator) that I deploy that can all move 12 a turn, allowing me to redeploy quickly, and moving my rhinos 6 and firing 2 melta or plasma from the top hatch is nice too.

[DarkGuard]

The one problem with C:SM is that it is hard to make tactically viable footslogger lists, unless you go for Scouts, Terminators, jump packs, Shrike, Khan etc... Basically, you need it to be tough enough to footslog and endure firepower (Terminators), fast on its own (jump packs), or have advanced deployment options such as Scouts being able to infiltrate, scout, and outflank. Shrike gives everyone Fleet so makes Scouts and Assault squads faster, while Khan allows any footslogging unit to outflank.

 

This is my one major gripe with the Codex, I'd love to make a force that is footslogging and effective, but outside of those limited options I cannot. Currently Nids are fulfilling my footslogging needs, and if I want a footslogging Marine army I'd go for Grey Knights or Blood Angels when they come out, due to their ability to take tough, fast troop choices.