Versus New Grey Knights.

[Cosmic Archmage]

You guys are probably all aware of how much Daemons are Boned versus the new Grey Knights. Any of you have plans to at least stand a chance ? Here's what I'm thinking.

 

Since close combat is pretty much a bad thing versus GK of the question, the best elite choice seems to be Flamers. Also, we have the advantage that Daemonic Gifts aren't psychic powers and therefore not affected by all the anti-psychic stuff.

 

Also I don't play Khorne, but Blessing of the Blood God is pretty sweet, considering ALL Grey Knights have force weapons. Sure there's that Psychic Power that snuffs out Daemonic Gifts, but you still have a 2+ save against that I'd reckon. 2 Thirsters would then seem to be pretty good choices for HQs, but of course very vulnerable to Psycannon spam. Skulltaker seems great too, especially with the "Skulls for the Skull Throne" rule (chop!), he would be quite dangerous for any HQ, Paladins and Dreadknights.

 

As for Troops, Plaguebearers are pretty much out, the entire army getting pass their FNP. Bloodletters and Daemonettes, it really depends on wether Psychout grenades only work when the Grey Knights charge, or if they work when you charge them too. Anybody can confirm this ? In the case where it would only work when they get charged, it wouldn't be so bad because of high ini/furious charge and rending/power weapons. Horrors wouldn't be too affected, since they already die in CC.

 

Heavy Support, I'd definitly take Grinders over Princes, it wouldn't seem that princes could do anything in CC against any GK units, and Grinders don't have the Daemonic rule.

 

Fast attack, well, we all know how that area of the codex isn't the best, but I don't see how screamers would work differently agains't GK vehicules, but I feel the army isn't as reliant on them as any other marine dex.

 

Anyhow, all this is nice and all, but that doesn't change the fact that their Warp Quake power is the thing that's hurting us the most. That said, I have the feeling that a shooty army deepstriking out of that power's range, anchored with 2 Bloodthirsters would fare best against the GK.

 

Failing that, ask to field twice as much points than your opponent, and you might have a chance :P

[Seahawk]

Daemons were boned before, nothing has changed except that they are a little better off now than before. Ever heard of the 3rd edition Sanctuary? It's gone.

 

Bloodthirsters don't care about Psycannons. AP4 < 3+ armor save. A 2+ against psychic powers means they'll almost never be affected by them.

 

The best Elites choice has always been Flamers, so that doesn't change.

 

Plaguebearers were never that good except for holding objectives, which keeps them in the back and typically out of combat. Thus, that hasn't changed either. They still get their two saves vs shooting, so keep it that way. Daemonettes are still too weak to be that effective. The Changling has now gotten so much better for his itty-bitty point cost, so horrors are still usable (plus they shoot). Bloodletters are still so good, and haven't really changed from last time. Big mobs make short work of space marines.

 

Screamers are still the best Fast Attack choice, even more so now that Grey Knights can go mechanized.

 

I have no opinion on the heavy support, as I never use any of them :D.

 

All in all, no changes in my army lists; mine is still perfectly capable of annihilating Grey Knight armies.

[Artemis360]

Sure there's that Psychic Power that snuffs out Daemonic Gifts, but you still have a 2+ save against that I'd reckon.

 

How can you make a save when there's no wounds being caused? Look at the Gift of Chaos power for example. Toughness test, no saves because there's no wound.

[Cosmic Archmage]

Right, I misrembered that part (I don't play khorne as I said), I thought it gave you a save against psychic power in the same way a wolf tail talisman does.

[Excess Nerd]

My primary army is actually Daemons and I only use Slaanesh/Tzeetch units but where have people read the rules for Grey Knights other than the fact we know it is going to waffle stomp all daemon lists?

[Seahawk]

The Grey Knights will not rofl-stomp daemons anymore. The most they have now are a couple psychic powers like that gift negater and a high initiative in close combat.

 

Now, we (daemons) will always get our saves, which is awesome! Nothing ignores invulnerables anymore. In general, most of them will only be S5 with weapons that only ignore armor saves, and even then that's on Ld 9 and could Perils or fail often enough. The worst is daemonhammers, which are mostly just thunderhammers anyway.

 

If anything, Grey Knights got a bit worse at fighting against actual daemons.

[armbarred]

Actually, Daemonbane is on all Nemesis Force Weapons. That means even if they fail to activate the force weapon, any wound causes a Leadership test. If failed remove the model from play. Psilencers wound daemons on a 4+ or better. Warp quake us going to suck. Dark Excommunication is going to be rough...

 

I think that daemons still have a chance, but it will be tough. We'll have to play to the mission objectives 100% better than the GK general. Soul Grinders are going to be great, at least they don't have gifts that can be ignored.

 

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

[Marmande]

On the upside, I don't see any competitive GK player taking Psilencers, or taking DE on anything other on a Dreadknight where it comes standard. :D

[Lord Cuthbert]

I dunno, I really think that Daemons are still gonna get owned by anything GK or Daemonhunter.

 

Pros for GKs

 

Every NFW is now a FW. Even if the FW is not activated it counts as a PW, not a big deal against Daemons but hell on every one else.

 

Daemonhammers for everyone!- Not just limited to characters anymore and they strike in initiative.

 

GK mech- No more foot slogging or buying a heavy slot LR for transport.

 

Daemonic de-buffs- Between Psychic powers and GK abilities there are a lot of things that give the Daemons fits. I.e. difficult terrain tests to assault, -1 Ld, outright wound powers, plenty of rerolls, Warp Quake.

 

Crowe- This guy is a non-IC character. He allows Purifiers to be taken as troops (these guys are HARD!) and he has GROSS special rules. He attacks every model in combat and rends on a 4+. If/when he is killed he has a rule that CAN eliminate any one model in combat with him regardless of wounds (it does affect models with Eternal Warrior).

 

Pros for Deamonhunters (Inquisitors)

 

Corteaz- "I've Been Expecting You" will keep DS honest, the Mystics may have been nerfed but he makes up for it. His henchmen rule allows up to 6 untis of Troop henchmen. It is possible to bring 1250 pts of monkeys and crusaders for lots of lascannon/multi-melta love and 3++ saves. Don't forget the ridiculous bonuses the monkeys give.

 

Assassins- How is it possible that the assassins get even better? Calidus- polymorphine is foul against everyone, the neural shredder kills anything not a vehicle (go ahead make all those 5++ saves), and the phase sword still negates the invulnerable saves. Vindicare- unlimited special rounds, shield breaker (removes invulnerable saves permanently- looking at you Mr. Greater Deamon) turbo penetrator (2 wounds on 4+, 3+ 4D6 armour pen thanks!) hellfire (still wounds on 2+). Eversor- neural gauntlet is now a lightning claw, still get extra charge attacks, does not blow up when he dies ;). Culexus- Have not checked him out yet although animus speculum sounds like it gets an extra shot for every pyker (every GK is a psyker) near, not new but clarified. Death Cult Assassins- are now henchmen! Holy crap each henchman band can take 3x I 6 S4 PW attacks per DCA!!

 

Pros for Daemons

 

No more invulnerables denied- Psycannons and incinerators don't negate wounds.

 

Blessing of the Blood God is useful for once- A good part of the GK and Daemonhunter punch is from psychic attacks, Khorne gets a bit stronger here.

 

Daemonic gifts are not psychic- No change here but still important.

 

Eternal Warrior- Again no change but is protection from non-Khorne units getting FW removed.

 

 

Conclusion

 

As a whole survivability of the Daemons is marginally better. BotBG gives some Khorne units a better chance and everyone still gets thier invulnerable save but is it enough? A 5++ is still susceptible to torrent fire which the new GK Codex brings a lot of. Key to note that Bloodletters do not get BotBG, 4 Psycannons and a few SBs will shred a unit of 10 Bloodletters.

 

Nurgle is nerfed in combat since there is a plethora of PW attacks that remove Regen, go ahead roll those 5++.

 

Tzeentch has better saves but lower T and suffers more wounds. They can be successful at range but BS 3 doesn't help much, and GK can close more quickly now to get into combat where WS 3, S3, T3 will get owned. 4++ can only save so many wounds.

 

Slannesh is actually out Initiatived! All Slannesh units live on lots of attacks and rending, going second really hurts the number of wounds that they need to inflict. Fiends are slightly better than Daemonettes because of S 5 and Hit & Run.

 

The new GK Codex is quite easily the most customizable Codex ever released. There are many great options and combos that will make this 'dex competitive for multiple builds. As I see it the Daemons are still gonna get wiped anytime they see a GK army, some improvements and some detriments overall no change.

 

 

Now that I have the Codex in hand I want to take the time to revisit my earlier thoughts based on the PDF I had before.

 

Corrections

 

Nemesis Daemonhammer- Only the Dreadknight hits in Initiative, pointed out Requiemnex. Still excellent to have relatively inexpensive thunderhammers that are force weapons.

 

LRs are still a heavy slot and compete with psifle dreads and Purgation squads. On the plus cheaper than Marine counterparts so they will still be around in many lists. The whole list is very mech orientated now though, different dynamic.

 

Castellan Crowe- The guy is meh, in actuality. He's a good one-trick pony and brings Purifiers as Troops. Now Purifiers ARE good units, you can outfit a Purifier squad and a Strike squad the same and the Purifier is cheaper! With an additioanl attack, yes please.

 

Death Cult Assassins- If anything they are better than originally thought. Take 4 DCA and 4 Crusaders for 120 pts; 12x S4 power weapon, I 6, 5++ and 4x S3 power weapon, I 3, 3++.... sign me up. Add an Inq with hammerhand for an additional 55 pts, extra for goodies like Term armour. Down right nasty.

 

Shieldbreaker round- Slayer le Bouche correctly pointed out that the shieldbreaker round only works on wargear, this pretty much is useless agaisnt daemons. Better to focus on turbo penetrator and hellfire rounds which are still great options.

 

Revised Conclusion

 

Not really revised so much as clarified some. I think that it is important to point out that even Khorne is going to have issues facing a GK, even pure GKs. The strength of the GK is not in combat, but in midfield fire suppression. Thirsters, Kheralds, and Hounds can be dealt with effectively with anti-infantry fire. Psycannons and psilencers should abound in many GK lists, and these are not psychic attacks, they do not require a psychic check to operate. Personally, I feel that the psilenser should count as psychic as well as psybolt ammo, but does not at this time. So the models that can receive BotBG should just be torrented as any Marine army would do, and the GK have more of it.

 

Now if you can get a GK out into combat then the BotBG can own them, but a decent GK player shouldn't allow the situation and just shoot those units down. Halberds are gonna really hurt most armies in that the GK strike at Init 6. So if you aren't bringing 15+ Bloodletters you likely won't survive long. Crushers have less chance since at most folks run 4-5 in a unit.

 

So in competitive play I'm pretty much shelving my Daemons for the time being, they will likely just see casual play.

[Spacefrisian]

So mono Khorne is the way to go against the bandwagoneers, Eg Skulltaker, Fleshhounds (they are very annoying for GK) and the blessings of blood.

[Marmande]

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-pg...le-reports.html

 

Pure Grey Knights get owned against Mono-Khorne in the third battlerep, though the Daemons player took three(!) Khornate Daemon Princes with wings.

[Requiemnex]

all daemon hammers are NOT at initiative. only those wielded by the knight.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I dunno, I really think that Daemons are still gonna get owned by anything GK or Daemonhunter.

 

Pros for GKs

 

Every NFW is now a FW. Even if the FW is not activated it counts as a PW, not a big deal against Daemons but hell on every one else.

 

Daemonhammers for everyone!- Not just limited to characters anymore and they strike in initiative.

 

GK mech- No more foot slogging or buying a heavy slot LR for transport.

 

Daemonic de-buffs- Between Psychic powers and GK abilities there are a lot of things that give the Daemons fits. I.e. difficult terrain tests to assault, -1 Ld, outright wound powers, plenty of rerolls, Warp Quake.

 

Crowe- This guy is a non-IC character. He allows Purifiers to be taken as troops (these guys are HARD!) and he has GROSS special rules. He attacks every model in combat and rends on a 4+. If/when he is killed he has a rule that CAN eliminate any one model in combat with him regardless of wounds (it does affect models with Eternal Warrior).

 

Pros for Deamonhunters (Inquisitors)

 

Corteaz- "I've Been Expecting You" will keep DS honest, the Mystics may have been nerfed but he makes up for it. His henchmen rule allows up to 6 untis of Troop henchmen. It is possible to bring 1250 pts of monkeys and crusaders for lots of lascannon/multi-melta love and 3++ saves. Don't forget the ridiculous bonuses the monkeys give.

 

Assassins- How is it possible that the assassins get even better? Calidus- polymorphine is foul against everyone, the neural shredder kills anything not a vehicle (go ahead make all those 5++ saves), and the phase sword still negates the invulnerable saves. Vindicare- unlimited special rounds, )shield breaker (removes invulnerable saves permanently- looking at you Mr. Greater Deamon turbo penetrator (2 wounds on 4+, 3+ 4D6 armour pen thanks!) hellfire (still wounds on 2+). Eversor- neural gauntlet is now a lightning claw, still get extra charge attacks, does not blow up when he dies :yes:. Culexus- Have not checked him out yet although animus speculum sounds like it gets an extra shot for every pyker (every GK is a psyker) near, not new but clarified. Death Cult Assassins- are now henchmen! Holy crap each henchman band can take 3x I 6 S4 PW attacks per DCA!!

 

Pros for Daemons

 

No more invulnerables denied- Psycannons and incinerators don't negate wounds.

 

Blessing of the Blood God is useful for once- A good part of the GK and Daemonhunter punch is from psychic attacks, Khorne gets a bit stronger here.

 

Daemonic gifts are not psychic- No change here but still important.

 

Eternal Warrior- Again no change but is protection from non-Khorne units getting FW removed.

 

 

Conclusion

 

As a whole survivability of the Daemons is marginally better. BotBG gives some Khorne units a better chance and everyone still gets thier invulnerable save but is it enough? A 5++ is still susceptible to torrent fire which the new GK Codex brings a lot of. Key to note that Bloodletters do not get BotBG, 4 Psycannons and a few SBs will shred a unit of 10 Bloodletters.

 

Nurgle is nerfed in combat since there is a plethora of PW attacks that remove Regen, go ahead roll those 5++.

 

Tzeentch has better saves but lower T and suffers more wounds. They can be successful at range but BS 3 doesn't help much, and GK can close more quickly now to get into combat where WS 3, S3, T3 will get owned. 4++ can only save so many wounds.

 

Slannesh is actually out Initiatived! All Slannesh units live on lots of attacks and rending, going second really hurts the number of wounds that they need to inflict. Fiends are slightly better than Daemonettes because of S 5 and Hit & Run.

 

The new GK Codex is quite easily the most customizable Codex ever released. There are many great options and combos that will make this 'dex competitive for multiple builds. As I see it the Daemons are still gonna get wiped anytime they see a GK army, some improvements and some detriments overall no change.

 

 

Shield Breaker ammos only destroy invul saves that are given by wargear,items or armours, not innate invul saves like with deamons,Oblits,Lords,Princes etc etc.

[gundog8324]

Skarbrand may be usefull, since they have Preferred Enemy you might as well level the playing field.

[Lord Cuthbert]

Skarbrand may be usefull, since they have Preferred Enemy you might as well level the playing field.

 

 

I like it, no down side only upside.

[Grey Mage]

I dunno, I really think that Daemons are still gonna get owned by anything GK or Daemonhunter.

 

Pros for GKs

 

Every NFW is now a FW. Even if the FW is not activated it counts as a PW, not a big deal against Daemons but hell on every one else.

 

Daemonhammers for everyone!- Not just limited to characters anymore and they strike in initiative.

 

GK mech- No more foot slogging or buying a heavy slot LR for transport.

 

Daemonic de-buffs- Between Psychic powers and GK abilities there are a lot of things that give the Daemons fits. I.e. difficult terrain tests to assault, -1 Ld, outright wound powers, plenty of rerolls, Warp Quake.

 

Crowe- This guy is a non-IC character. He allows Purifiers to be taken as troops (these guys are HARD!) and he has GROSS special rules. He attacks every model in combat and rends on a 4+. If/when he is killed he has a rule that CAN eliminate any one model in combat with him regardless of wounds (it does affect models with Eternal Warrior).

 

Pros for Deamonhunters (Inquisitors)

 

Corteaz- "I've Been Expecting You" will keep DS honest, the Mystics may have been nerfed but he makes up for it. His henchmen rule allows up to 6 untis of Troop henchmen. It is possible to bring 1250 pts of monkeys and crusaders for lots of lascannon/multi-melta love and 3++ saves. Don't forget the ridiculous bonuses the monkeys give.

 

Assassins- How is it possible that the assassins get even better? Calidus- polymorphine is foul against everyone, the neural shredder kills anything not a vehicle (go ahead make all those 5++ saves), and the phase sword still negates the invulnerable saves. Vindicare- unlimited special rounds, )shield breaker (removes invulnerable saves permanently- looking at you Mr. Greater Deamon turbo penetrator (2 wounds on 4+, 3+ 4D6 armour pen thanks!) hellfire (still wounds on 2+). Eversor- neural gauntlet is now a lightning claw, still get extra charge attacks, does not blow up when he dies :P. Culexus- Have not checked him out yet although animus speculum sounds like it gets an extra shot for every pyker (every GK is a psyker) near, not new but clarified. Death Cult Assassins- are now henchmen! Holy crap each henchman band can take 3x I 6 S4 PW attacks per DCA!!

 

Pros for Daemons

 

No more invulnerables denied- Psycannons and incinerators don't negate wounds.

 

Blessing of the Blood God is useful for once- A good part of the GK and Daemonhunter punch is from psychic attacks, Khorne gets a bit stronger here.

 

Daemonic gifts are not psychic- No change here but still important.

 

Eternal Warrior- Again no change but is protection from non-Khorne units getting FW removed.

 

 

Conclusion

 

As a whole survivability of the Daemons is marginally better. BotBG gives some Khorne units a better chance and everyone still gets thier invulnerable save but is it enough? A 5++ is still susceptible to torrent fire which the new GK Codex brings a lot of. Key to note that Bloodletters do not get BotBG, 4 Psycannons and a few SBs will shred a unit of 10 Bloodletters.

 

Nurgle is nerfed in combat since there is a plethora of PW attacks that remove Regen, go ahead roll those 5++.

 

Tzeentch has better saves but lower T and suffers more wounds. They can be successful at range but BS 3 doesn't help much, and GK can close more quickly now to get into combat where WS 3, S3, T3 will get owned. 4++ can only save so many wounds.

 

Slannesh is actually out Initiatived! All Slannesh units live on lots of attacks and rending, going second really hurts the number of wounds that they need to inflict. Fiends are slightly better than Daemonettes because of S 5 and Hit & Run.

 

The new GK Codex is quite easily the most customizable Codex ever released. There are many great options and combos that will make this 'dex competitive for multiple builds. As I see it the Daemons are still gonna get wiped anytime they see a GK army, some improvements and some detriments overall no change.

 

 

Shield Breaker ammos only destroy invul saves that are given by wargear,items or armours, not innate invul saves like with deamons,Oblits,Lords,Princes etc etc.

 

... and Landraiders still take a heavy slot.

the -1 leadership is jsut vs Psychic powers, wich Demons dont have.

Oh, and those force weapons your talkin about? Yeah, atleast you have to fail a leadership test instead of having the GKGM pass his.

 

Crowe- sucks against demons, he doesnt even have the demonbane a normal strike squad member would have and rending doesnt mean squat to most demons. Top it off, while purifiers are better at CC than strike squads theyre also more expensive and just as likely to get eaten by bloodletters or downed by screamers.

 

Coteaz- the monkeys are great, I wont lie, but frankly their own abilities are nothing special- its the unit buffs. In any case his own form of the old 2x Mystics trick isnt nearly as good, and cant be combined with a Leman Russ Executioner like the old one could.

 

Oh yeah, did I mention no more inducted IG? Everyone wins there. Except the GKs.

 

Assassins- as noted, the Vindicaire only stops wargear invulnerables... of wich the Daemons have none. *yawn*. Hes a threat to soulgrinders though with his turbopenetrator... just like always. The Animus Speculum on the Culexis on the other hand doesnt get +1 per GK in range, but rather +1 per GK squad- each squad counts as a single psyker for everything.

 

Khorne- Who really takes only 10 Bloodletters? I rarely see less than 15, and it only takes a few charging in to wreck a unit of GKs hard. PWs are much more effective against GKs than Force Weapons are on Bloodletters.

 

Nurgle- has always had issues killing things, and trouble with Low APs. Their resistance to shooting is however much, much stronger because low AP weapons have basicly vanished from the GK list.

 

Slaanesh- still goes first most of the time. Still rends. Still comes in good numbers. A small handful of Halberds shouldnt kill them.... if people actually spammed them, there might be trouble- but then your looking at 2 Daemonettes for every GK.

 

Tzeentch probly got hit hardest by the volume of shots the GKs can put out now. Still, that requires them to give up alot of toys to actually do, so lists with a splash of tzeentch for shooting will do fine.

[Flying Monkey Soldiers]

After playing a few games against them I can safely say that the only thing that hurts Daemons is Dark Excommunication. Nothing else really dangerous due to the fact we get our Invuls now.

[BrotherWasted]

True, but your invulnerable saves are still for the most part, rather lame. Torrenting fire will make very short work of your Bloodletters with their frail 5++. So long as the GKs charge, their Furious charge isn't always a threat either - remember that all GK infantry are equipped with both Frag and Psyk-Out Grenades, meaning they'll assault into cover and make the Daemons fight at Initiative 1.

[Seahawk]

Just like my game with Daemons vs GK today, the GK got obliterated. Once I was able to drop their mechanized bits through shooting, the squishies inside didn't have a chance.

 

GK are faster moving, but still far more screwed vs daemons than ever before. GK don't have torrenting fire; they simply don't put out that much shooting. Most of their close combat strength is wasted against daemons, as with halberds and the grenades, they'll likely always go first anyway.

[Lord Cuthbert]

Just like my game with Daemons vs GK today, the GK got obliterated. Once I was able to drop their mechanized bits through shooting, the squishies inside didn't have a chance.

 

GK are faster moving, but still far more screwed vs daemons than ever before. GK don't have torrenting fire; they simply don't put out that much shooting. Most of their close combat strength is wasted against daemons, as with halberds and the grenades, they'll likely always go first anyway.

 

 

Then you obviously played a noob. GK are the best torrent fire army in the game up to 24". They are also not a CC army, so if you were to play against a CC orientated Gk list you will beat them, but against a balanced list you have no chance. At 1750 pts I can put out the following;

 

28 Strength 4 BS 4 shots (24")

02 Strength 4 BS 4 shots (24")

8 T-L Strength 8 BS 4 shots (36")

06 Strength 6 BS 4 shots (36")

8-16 Strength 7 Rending BS 4 shots (24")

32 Strength 7 Rending BS 4 shots (24")

 

Now you tell me what other army can put that much firepower reliably a turn.

 

The GK don't want to get into combat regardless if they all have force weapons. You put your Daemons on the field and I will torrent you to death as you arrive, if you DS away from me then I will torrent you to death as you try to reach me. I'm not gonna let you get your Thirster or Prince near me to use BotBG and the Fleshhounds die to regular bolters. If you do mange to get units into combat it won't be a BotBG model and I have 6 Daemon Hammers in the list to get through Nurgle stuff.

 

I played my Daemons against the GK and got owned, I played my GK against Daemons and owned them. 5++ really isn't that hot and 4++ is okay at best; believe me GK Termmies live on 4++ and 5++ and it isn't that great, any unit with 3++ can bog down GK Terms and make combat a bear. Deamons don't have that option.

[Grey Mage]

... wich frankly, is not impressive compared to a SW gunline, C:SM armies at 1750, let alone IG or Eldar. Nor is the quality of fire there on the few units that do have a 3+ armor save.

[Lord Cuthbert]

... wich frankly, is not impressive compared to a SW gunline, C:SM armies at 1750, let alone IG or Eldar. Nor is the quality of fire there on the few units that do have a 3+ armor save.

 

 

Not sure if I agree with your assessment, please provide some numbers to support your opinion. I do not see your reasoning that S5 stormbolters and S7 psycannons are not "quality of fire" for 3+ armour units, are you suggesting that bolters are better? A 5 man GK squad puts out an equivalent amount of fire as a 10 man tac squad at higher strength. Even a S7 Ass2/Hvy4 rending weapon is better that a tactical special/heavy weapon in my opinion. A SW long Fang unit puts out as much fire as a Psydread, the Long Fangs get a better AP that's it. A single GK Purgation squad puts out more fire power than three Long Fang squads.

 

The big difference is the firing range for the GK being 24". So you move them up and get into cover, I assume that cover is available at midfield in your games right? If the opposing player advances with CC troops simply withdraw and keep shooting. Don't get caught in combat, GK may be able to beat face against lesser troops but against any dedicated CC unit they will get owned, even Paladins and Purifiers.

 

So show me what makes any of the lists that you provided better at shooting. You may have an argument with SW but C:SM and Eldar, really?

[Grey Mage]

Im not seeing you taking psybolter ammo in the above list, so Im not comparing it to strength 5 anything. I havent been seeing alot of it taken in tournaments either, but in my standardish 1750pt army I have:

 

42 S 4 shots at 24"

4 S7 AP2 shots at 24"

2 S9 Ap2 shots at 48"

10 S8 AP3 shots at 48"

6 S5 AP 4 shots at 36"

12 S6 Rending shots at 24"

And a Whirlwinds pieplate.

 

My Eldar list at 1750 on the other hand has, potentially:

96 S4 shots at 18", 15 at BS 5.

8 Shots at S5 AP 3

9 S8 shots at 48"

10 S8 shots at 12"

5 Sniper Rifles with a ~45% of rending

22 S6 shots at 12" on jump infantry.

 

I have previously fielded:

128 S4 Shots at 18"

16 S5 AP3 shots at 48"

11 S8 Shots at 48"

12 S8 Shots at 12"

2 S9 shots at 18"

 

And Im capable, in 1750 of throwing down:

160 S4 Shots at 18". 25 at BS 5

24 S5 AP3 shots at 48" BS 4

6 S8, at 48" and BS 5

6 S8 twinlinked BS3 shots at 48"

5 S9 shots at 18" BS4

.. though I usually dont, as its got very little CC potential really.

 

I have seen a C:SM army that was able to leverage:

40 S4 shots at 24"

3 S7 Shots at 24"

17 S8 shots at 48"

18 S5 shots at 36"

4 S6 Rending shots at 24"

And a bodygaurd of sterngaurd, wich are difficult to quantify.

 

And my friend craig has fielded a 1750 IG force that has:

24 S7 shots at 48"

12 S7 Ap2 shots at 24"

5 S7 templates at 36"

120 S3 shots at 24"

9 S9 twinlinked BS 3 shots at 48"

15 S5 shots at 36"

... and he wasnt feeling particularly competitive that day, he was just showing off his hydras. Im not an IG player, but given an afternoon of conversation with him Im sure we can figure out something scarier if you like.

 

Heck, lets check out jasons last Necron list:

20 S4 shots at 24"

46 S5 shots at 24"

45 S6 shots at 36"

... not as much at the high end Ill admit, but this is nercons for goodness sakes.... vs GKs they dont have to worry much about your shooting, and vs. demons theyre sheer quantity of anti-infantry fire is greater, while vs. most opponents they can stunlock an enemy force while maintaining full mobility themselves.

 

 

So no... I dont really feel that GKs are the best 'torrent of fire' army out there. I think they have a decent amount of mindrange fire support, that their AP isnt exceptional, and that their best fire support unit- the Psy-rifle-dread- can be removed with a single shot and is somewhat expensive- though still a great bargain.

 

Not only that, but unlike many armies a GKs shooting doesnt increase in quality as range decreases. Most SM lists and all IG lists will be able to gain about 40% more anti-infantry fire and in some causes triple their anti-tank fire at short ranges and with better AP.

 

While a GK player can maximize their torrent of fire to counter demons, it wont work in all cases- Nurgle heavy armies will laugh off psybolt ammunition, and leave even rending weapons praying for a lucky hit- and most players will not, and have not, because GK shooting isnt particularly effective against their most common opponent- other marines. Thats the main problem with shooty GKs- they can get the number of shots going, but the quality is lacking against most opponents.

 

edit: spelling.

[Decoy]

At 1750 pts I can put out the following;

 

28 Strength 4 BS 4 shots (24")

02 Strength 4 BS 4 shots (24")

8 T-L Strength 8 BS 4 shots (36")

06 Strength 6 BS 4 shots (36")

8-16 Strength 7 Rending BS 4 shots (24")

32 Strength 7 Rending BS 4 shots (24")

 

Now you tell me what other army can put that much firepower reliably a turn.

 

 

72 Strength 4 BS4 (24")

18 Strength 9/AP2 BS4 (48")

10 Strength 7/AP2 Blast BS4 (36")

25 Strength 7/AP2 BS4 (24")

16 Strength 8/AP1 BS4 (12")

 

Space Wolves, 2000 points.

 

Whenever you have to ask "what other army can...", just remember the Wolves. We do everything better than you.

[Grey Mage]

Decoy... I think you must be a bit off, S9 AP 1, S8 AP 1? Where?