Versus New Grey Knights.

[Decoy]

Decoy... I think you must be a bit off, S9 AP 1, S8 AP 1? Where?

 

 

S9, derp. Meant AP2. Lascannons. Sorry, I've been drinking somewhat. And Multimeltas/Meltas.

 

Editing AP of Lascannons now.

[Valek]

The only problem is the spam of warpquake, they can virtually make it impossible to teleport. Crowe is dangerous if you let him sneak up to one of the big beaters...

 

 

For the rest they are hard indeed, but nothing you can't handle. Bloodcrushers still rip through marines and terminators with ease...

The Dreadknight with excommunication is hard yes, on the other hand it is quite killable.

 

Still think fateweaver can deal with them very easely.

[Lord Cuthbert]

Im not seeing you taking psybolter ammo in the above list, so Im not comparing it to strength 5 anything. I havent been seeing alot of it taken in tournaments either, but in my standardish 1750pt army I have:

 

42 S 4 shots at 24"

4 S7 AP2 shots at 24"

2 S9 Ap2 shots at 48"

10 S8 AP3 shots at 48"

6 S5 AP 4 shots at 36"

12 S6 Rending shots at 24"

And a Whirlwinds pieplate.

 

My Eldar list at 1750 on the other hand has, potentially:

96 S4 shots at 18", 15 at BS 5.

8 Shots at S5 AP 3

9 S8 shots at 48"

10 S8 shots at 12"

5 Sniper Rifles with a ~45% of rending

22 S6 shots at 12" on jump infantry.

 

I have previously fielded:

128 S4 Shots at 18"

16 S5 AP3 shots at 48"

11 S8 Shots at 48"

12 S8 Shots at 12"

2 S9 shots at 18"

 

And Im capable, in 1750 of throwing down:

160 S4 Shots at 18". 25 at BS 5

24 S5 AP3 shots at 48" BS 4

6 S8, at 48" and BS 5

6 S8 twinlinked BS3 shots at 48"

5 S9 shots at 18" BS4

.. though I usually dont, as its got very little CC potential really.

 

I have seen a C:SM army that was able to leverage:

40 S4 shots at 24"

3 S7 Shots at 24"

17 S8 shots at 48"

18 S5 shots at 36"

4 S6 Rending shots at 24"

And a bodygaurd of sterngaurd, wich are difficult to quantify.

 

And my friend craig has fielded a 1750 IG force that has:

24 S7 shots at 48"

12 S7 Ap2 shots at 24"

5 S7 templates at 36"

120 S3 shots at 24"

9 S9 twinlinked BS 3 shots at 48"

15 S5 shots at 36"

... and he wasnt feeling particularly competitive that day, he was just showing off his hydras. Im not an IG player, but given an afternoon of conversation with him Im sure we can figure out something scarier if you like.

 

Heck, lets check out jasons last Necron list:

20 S4 shots at 24"

46 S5 shots at 24"

45 S6 shots at 36"

... not as much at the high end Ill admit, but this is nercons for goodness sakes.... vs GKs they dont have to worry much about your shooting, and vs. demons theyre sheer quantity of anti-infantry fire is greater, while vs. most opponents they can stunlock an enemy force while maintaining full mobility themselves.

 

 

So no... I dont really feel that GKs are the best 'torrent of fire' army out there. I think they have a decent amount of mindrange fire support, that their AP isnt exceptional, and that their best fire support unit- the Psy-rifle-dread- can be removed with a single shot and is somewhat expensive- though still a great bargain.

 

Not only that, but unlike many armies a GKs shooting doesnt increase in quality as range decreases. Most SM lists and all IG lists will be able to gain about 40% more anti-infantry fire and in some causes triple their anti-tank fire at short ranges and with better AP.

 

While a GK player can maximize their torrent of fire to counter demons, it wont work in all cases- Nurgle heavy armies will laugh off psybolt ammunition, and leave even rending weapons praying for a lucky hit- and most players will not, and have not, because GK shooting isnt particularly effective against their most common opponent- other marines. Thats the main problem with shooty GKs- they can get the number of shots going, but the quality is lacking against most opponents.

 

edit: spelling.

 

 

I have been away for a while, but it seems that I am in need of a rebuttal.

 

Before I compare the lists that you have provided let me go into a straght up comparison between GK and C:SMs.

 

1. SBs are assault 2 and Bolters are Rapid. At 24" 5 SBs puts out as much fire as 10 Bolters. Bolters don't get uber dakka until they are within 12". So that being said, a unit with SBs at 24" will always out shoot a unit with Bolters man for man.

2. Special weapons will always be fielded in maxed units. Incinerator vs Flamer is straight up templates, Incinerator is more effective but this debate is about fire saturation so the template weapons are a wash. GKs get either Psilencers or Psycannons, both of which increase the amount of fire by D6 shots or 2/4 shots respectively. The SMs only increase their fire saturation by taking HBs at 3 shots or a PC with a small blast, everything else is 1 shot, but the make up for this with high Strength and Low AP. Again not the point of this debate but a good point to note none the less.

 

That covers the basics of how much can each representative army can fire, so onto breaking down what you said you could bring.

 

42 S 4 shots at 24" these are probably bolters and likely represent 6 10 man units with 2 models bearing special weapons and the Sgt with a pistol.

4 S7 AP2 shots at 24" seems like 4 plasmaguns

2 S9 Ap2 shots at 48" two lascannons

10 S8 AP3 shots at 48" two longfang units with ML

6 S5 AP 4 shots at 36" 2 HBs either as heavies in troop units or possibly on RBs

12 S6 Rending shots at 24" that would be 3 ACs, the only options for them are RBs, LRC/LRR, or Termies

And a Whirlwinds pieplate. from said Whirlwind (everybody likes pie :D)

 

Now for the comparison

 

 

30 S 4 shots (24") vs 42 S 4 shots (24")- I'm out gunned by 12 S4 shots here (edge to the SW)

8 S 8 shots (36") vs 10 S 8 shots (48")- down by two shots, missile have a lower AP but my shots are twin-linked (slight edge to the SW)

6 S 6 shots (36") vs 12 S 6 shot (24:)- down by 6 shots, I have range SWs have rending (edge SW)

8-16 S 7 shots (24") vs 4 S 7 shots (24")- putting out 4-12 more shots than the wolves, lower AP for plasma but PsyCs rend (edge GK)

32 S 7 shots (24") vs 2 S 9 shots (48") and some S 5 pie)- putting out effectively 25 more shots (if you assume the WW will peg on average 5 models) AP 2 is great but so is 32 rending opportunities (decisive GK advantage)

 

All in all I am up by 9-17 shots in my army per model at 24". Your list does provide some nice low AP options, however I dish between 40 and 48 Strength 7 AP 4 rending shots compared to your 16 Strength 7/8/9 AP 3/2 shots. So tell me again how much more your army can fire than mine at 24" again. The only advantage you have is range. I know you felt the need to Nerd Rage how much better your forces are since they are SWs but plain and simple you army cannot put as many shots into the board period. Your army has advantages, this is not one of them.

 

Now if want to get into an escalation I could swap out a few units and bring some purgation squads each one capable of putting out more shots than 3 Long Fang squads armed with ML (you could take HBs instead for the extra shots but then PsyCs are much better than HBs).

 

Again how does this tie in with Daemons? Daemons need to get into combat to down GKs. The GKs saturate the board from near mid-field with fire, you cannot reliably make enough 5++ saves. What does break through will have a hard time in combat only due to depleted numbers. Why is this so hard to understand? It isn't an attempt to belittle Daemon players, heck I love playing my Daemon lists. But GKs are supposed to make light work of Daemons, they always have and they still do. The only difference is that they do it a little different now.

[Lord Cuthbert]

The only problem is the spam of warpquake, they can virtually make it impossible to teleport. Crowe is dangerous if you let him sneak up to one of the big beaters...

 

 

For the rest they are hard indeed, but nothing you can't handle. Bloodcrushers still rip through marines and terminators with ease...

The Dreadknight with excommunication is hard yes, on the other hand it is quite killable.

 

Still think fateweaver can deal with them very easely.

 

 

Crushers are nasty, but still susceptible to Psycannon spam (which is what you should be facing).

Fateweaver is just as vulnerable, all you need to do is fail ONE save and poof, he's gone. Can you make 20+ saves?

[Captain Malachi]

To be fair, you have to fail one re-rollable 3+ save and then fail a leadership test with LD9. Yeah, he's fragile, but he isn't that fragile, honestly half the time you'll die from wounds before his rule kicks in and he runs away.

[minigun762]

To be fair, you have to fail one re-rollable 3+ save and then fail a leadership test with LD9. Yeah, he's fragile, but he isn't that fragile, honestly half the time you'll die from wounds before his rule kicks in and he runs away.

 

Hey Cap'n Malachi, long time.

WIth Fateweaver, isn't her T5 instead of the normal T6 for LoC? If so, the lower T is going to make bolters and such that much more effective at making him run away. If not, I'm an idiot. :)

[Captain Malachi]

Hey, yeah I've been lurking, but I've been out of the hobby for a while so I haven't had much to say.

 

But nah, you're right, everything on Kairos' statline is one less than the normal (except save), so that's one less wound as well. He's definately fragile, I'm just saying it's not quite as simple as causing one failed save. He has three wounds, and you've got a roughly 1/4 chance of him running away per wound (slightly higher than 1/4 to be fair), so he'll only run about half of the time. His lower toughness is easily offset by the re-rollable save though.

[Something Wycked]

1. SBs are assault 2 and Bolters are Rapid. At 24" 5 SBs puts out as much fire as 10 Bolters. Bolters don't get uber dakka until they are within 12". So that being said, a unit with SBs at 24" will always out shoot a unit with Bolters man for man.

Space Wolves outnumber GK's by 4:3, so the comparison can't be man:man.

 

GKs get either Psilencers or Psycannons, both of which increase the amount of fire by D6 shots or 2/4 shots respectively.

Psilencers are 6 shots, not d6.

 

I know you felt the need to Nerd Rage how much better your forces are since they are SWs...

I take issue with SW arrogance as much as the next person, but that was unnecessary.

 

And yes, they do have the advantage of range. GK's get outranged by damn near everyone. What you cannot factor into your unit:unit or shot:shot comparisons is who is in range and who can't; that gets played out on the tabletop. And its a very important factor, too, since being out of range negates an entire unit's number of shots from being added into the equation.

 

 

Again how does this tie in with Daemons?

All of this doesn't tie in with Daemons, but you felt the need to state that no other army ever can put out as much dakka as GK's, and you got what you asked for.

 

GK's both will and won't make light work of Daemons; it will come down to the board, terrain, mission, lists, dice, and, most importantly, generalship. Not to open another can of worms, but I feel the need to use a simile here. Saying GK's will always outfight Daemons is like saying Kung Fu will always beat Karate, when the truth is that it only comes down to the skills of the combatants involved.

[Grey Mage]

The only advantage you have is range. I know you felt the need to Nerd Rage how much better your forces are since they are SWs but plain and simple you army cannot put as many shots into the board period. Your army has advantages, this is not one of them.

Blah blah blah I dont like being shown Im wrong so Im going to insult people.

 

At 20pts a peice, base, you get 20 shots. Thats the cheapest firepower in the whole army. Since other armies can beat that ratio, often by almost 2:1, they will outshoot the GKs as an army.

 

The GKs do not have a high volume of torrent fire- it just happens to be about the only firepower they have.

[Ayura]

Hi i want to know if Daemons still strike at initiative 1 when charging GK's ?

Since you have to roll a difficult terrain test, this means you strike at initiative 1?

[Gibious]

You dont strike I1 for charging them anymore, instead you will strike at I1 if charged by a GK with a certain grenade.

 

I belive all GK units get these grenades for free.

 

Onto contering them, I belive basic anti-sm tactics work fine.

 

Extras:

You no longer need to watch out for Nul zone.

 

Warp quake, you may have to take first turn. Focus on SS and IS first. Luckilly IS will more than not be on foot.

 

GK are not longer fearless, and they donr even have army wide ld 10. Most squads will be ld9 and thats only provided by the Justicar so can easily drop to 8.

 

Now ever multi wound daemon will suffer from Fateweavers 'weakness' in combat against NFW

 

Their main layout of Psyfle dreads, are laughable against daemons. No instant death on T4 cant even remove FNP off of Plaguebearers, str6 in combat so Soulgrinder can stomp them.

 

Vindicair could snipe out icons and other 'Hidden' models, any Bolt spare, send his way for instant death.

 

-Gib-

[Thorne666]

I play Daemons and grey knights so can see this from both points of view.

 

I think the point is grey knights are SUPPOSED to beat Deamons, or at the very least have a better chance at it than other armies.

 

How miffed would you be if your grey knights were useless at their mortal enemy when all the fluff describes them as such.

 

Most GN players NEVER tailor their lists to play against daemons and most never take psilencers as they severly limit mobility, and psycannons are just much better.

 

GN can be beat still IMHO i would:

1: outnumber them. GN's are 20pts a pop our troops are 13-17pts each.

2: close assault them GN strike squads are just above average in cc and most GN players will not want to be there.

3: avoid libriarians or neutralise them. Powers such as dark excommunication and sanctuary will hurt.

 

Against an all comers list you should do ok at least, play the mission objectives and use tactics and you be fine.

 

Ps don't above all don't panic!

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail

 

I have never really ventured into this part of the forum, since my Daemon army is rather small...still, I now have just cause for being here :-)

 

In a few weeks I will be playing against the new Grey Knights. We will be playing about 800pts, and my opponent will be fielding mostly Terminators - he dows now own any power armoured GK nor will he by the time we play.

 

I have the following painted:

 

Mamon (yes, the Forge World Daemon Prince)

Nurgle Herald

3 x 7 Plaguebearers (incl 1 icon, 2 instruments & 2 noxious touch)

 

In my cupboard I have the following in box:

10 Bloodletters

3 Bloodcrushers

4 Blight Drones

1 Bel'Akor daemon prince

1 Plague Hulk

 

Based on the above, what would you kind gentlemen suggest for a list that will stand a chance against the Grey Knight terminators. Last I played them, face this:

 

1 Brother-Captain

2x5 Terminator squad (each w. 2 psycannons)

1 Vindicare assassin

 

My thanks in advance.

 

Kind regards,

Master Ciaphas

[Something Wycked]

I can't advise on the list you should bring, but the Terminators are set up incorrectly.

 

A 5 man Termie squad can only have 1 Psycannon, and 2 per 10. If they are Paladins, then they can have 2 Psycannons per 5 models.

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail

 

More than likely it is my faulty memory, rather than an incorrect list from my esteemed opponent.

 

But thank you for your comment nonetheless :-)

 

Regards,

Master Ciaphas