Adir Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Mordraks stats is not as good ad you claim :D I think you're looking at the wrong entry bro. Yep it appears that I misremembered his stats... can't wait to get that codex! I believe he is still +1A and +1W over the vanilla GM. Still not bad for an extra 15 points (unless I am getting that wrong as well) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Mordraks stats is not as good ad you claim :D I think you're looking at the wrong entry bro. Yep it appears that I misremembered his stats... can't wait to get that codex! I believe he is still +1A and +1W over the vanilla GM. Still not bad for an extra 15 points (unless I am getting that wrong as well) 25 extra points :) Mordrak is 200 vs. 175 for base GM. Yes, he does have +1 extra A and +1 extra W. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 25 extra points :D Mordrak is 200 vs. 175 for base GM. Yes, he does have +1 extra A and +1 extra W. I believe Mordrak has a M/C hammer which IIRC is another 10 points for the vanilla GM - hence the 15 pt delta. I realize that the GM gets wargear options - but this is the closest apples to apples comparison I could come up with. Also, can anyone confirm the difference between the bestiary and army list entry with regards to the Stealth USR for ghost knights? I assume they DON'T get Stealth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 25 extra points :D Mordrak is 200 vs. 175 for base GM. Yes, he does have +1 extra A and +1 extra W. I believe Mordrak has a M/C hammer which IIRC is another 10 points for the vanilla GM - hence the 15 pt delta. I realize that the GM gets wargear options - but this is the closest apples to apples comparison I could come up with. Also, can anyone confirm the difference between the bestiary and army list entry with regards to the Stealth USR for ghost knights? I assume they DON'T get Stealth. They DO get Stealth, but it's not written under their Special Rules in the back of the book because Ward's a failure. It does, however, say they have the Stealth USR under their unit description. Just let your opponents know and it's all good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 They DO get Stealth, but it's not written under their Special Rules in the back of the book because Ward's a failure. It does, however, say they have the Stealth USR under their unit description. Just let your opponents know and it's all good. That would be nice but I believe there has been precedent set for army list over riding bestiary. It would seem given the other changes to the ghost knights entry (ranged weapons, etc.) that anything else removed by the game designers was no accident. If the knights do prove to be Stealthy then I would happily disconnect the librarian from that squad after he has worked his Summoning magic to join the scoring GKT! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 There's no such precedence, and anyone who argues otherwise isn't worth playing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 There's no such precedence, and anyone who argues otherwise isn't worth playing. Have you ever played in a tournament?! :D Seriously, my guess is that this will be FAQed away from the ghost brothers. Doesn't really bother me as my strategy revolves around the librarian sticking with them. However, if the consensus is otherwise, then I would consider putting the librarian in the redeemer with 5 GKT and bank on Mordrak and two scouting GK squads (GKSS + GKP) would be enough of a distraction to let the land raider close with the enemy. With the other 5 GKT getting mobile 3+ cover behind the land raider while providing fire support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I have, but I can't say that anyone who would argue the above has been without being thrown out. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Even though he isn't an IC and is therefore less susceptible to being "picked off", the thought of so many points piled into one single character that doesn't have EW scares me. Either way with his "regularly costed" GK Terminators I highly doubt I'd play him, unless it was for fun. So does that mean you won't be playing a regular GM? AFAIK Draigo is the only EW IC and there is no way to buy it anywhere else (someone correct me if I'm wrong). No, what I meant is Mordrak's entire squad dies when he dies, so if lets say you buy five guys with him, he's twice the price of a GM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Steath is a function of Mordrak's Ghostly Bodyguard special rule. As such, there is no doubt that Ghost Knights have stealth. Just as Lone Wolves has Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain as part of his Glorious Death special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Steath is a function of Mordrak's Ghostly Bodyguard special rule. As such, there is no doubt that Ghost Knights have stealth. Just as Lone Wolves has Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain as part of his Glorious Death special rule. Ah, now that is an argument I can get behind! Put that way I can see how they would have Stealth. Moreover, per the current BRB FAQ, they would confer that to any attached IC. @J, now I understand where you are coming from. Hopefully with 5 buddies he can avoid any ID wounds from shooting and his retinue status should keep him clear in combat. But yes, this is definitely a downside to taking Mordrak and guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2692839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 A fun thing I've been looking at with Mordrak. If I read correctly, I can attach an IC to his unit to insure first-turn, pin-point DS, no? Then I think that 2 Ordo Malleus inquisitors with inferno pistols to Mordrak+3-4 Ghost termies might wreck the day of many IG players by alpha-striking at precious gun battery emplacements. Same thing right upon that looming Land Raider. Worth it? Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2693895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Potental of three free Termines costing 40 points each, makes he lowest potetial cost being 60. Er, ok. That ain't going to happen very often. I'm guessing it is more likely that Mordak gets ganked before the retinue dies. Either way, I like him at his point cost, because of the deepstrike, and the regenerating ghosts. Mostly because of the deepstrike. A fun thing I've been looking at with Mordrak. If I read correctly, I can attach an IC to his unit to insure first-turn, pin-point DS, no? Then I think that 2 Ordo Malleus inquisitors with inferno pistols to Mordrak+3-4 Ghost termies might wreck the day of many IG players by alpha-striking at precious gun battery emplacements. Same thing right upon that looming Land Raider. Isn't that 3 HQs then? Is that allowed? There's also the Librarian's warp rift power which auto-penetrates vehicles..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2693903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Er, ok. That ain't going to happen very often. I'm guessing it is more likely that Mordak gets ganked before the retinue dies. It'll more be down to unlucky appearance rolls than ganking. With him not being an IC, it'l be rare he gets picked out before you've assigned any ID hits to his bodyguard... But I can see folk sticking the first couple of bolter (or equivalent) hit son him, just in case he fails his 2+ save at 4 wounds to get a few free termies. If you do get lucky, and roll a 5+, then 3+ you will get three free termies, for the equivalent of 120 points. Probably won't happen often, but I'm sure it will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2693910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Enough high strength wounds, S8 or more, can hit the squad at once (especially if there is less than 5 termies in later rounds) and force Mordrak to make a save, where he could die from ID. He doesn't need to be singled out for the whole squad to be lost. This outcome would be somewhat rare but it could happen, especially if templates are involved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2693931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Darn, =I= are HQs, now, not elite.... I keep forgetting. Grumble... :lol: Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2693954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Here is something i just thought of. Mordrak + Ghost Knights=how many powers? Its either 1 cast by Mordrak or 2, one from Mordrak and one from the Ghost Knights This is useful in case I want to use Hammerhand and Psychic Communion in the same turn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2693988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I would hope the answer is two, to be in line with the rest of the codex. The Ghosts Knights are a unit themselves, even if they only can ever be taken with Mordrak. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2693993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 1. Mordrak with Ghost Knights is a single unit, not an IC + Unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2694087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 1. Mordrak with Ghost Knights is a single unit, not an IC + Unit. Hmm, you know what, you're right. He is not an IC so he has to be considered part of the unit. And a unit of GK counts as a single pysker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2694153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Mordrak is only a level 1 Psyker and combined with the Ghost Knights they only get one psychic test. The problem with Morty, a Librarian, and a full unit of Ghost Knights with upgrades is your looking at such a HUGE amount of points tied up in one unit. It is cool that you can deep strike anywhere you want on turn one with out worry but then supporting this unit becomes an issue. When you land you will lack the shooting that makes Gray Knights such a deadly threat at mid to close range since there is no way to take any Psycannons on the unit. You also cannot assault after making your dramatic landing so don't expect to do much damage in your first turn. The Summoning is a nifty power but also has a pretty big flaw when used in this combination in that it is activated at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement Phase. So you can't call anyone in to help you for an entire turn. This is where things start to fall apart with this combination, by landing both of your HQ's first turn onto the board you have hung a giant "Shoot Here" sign around their necks. Your opponent gets a free round of shooting and assault against your powerhouse unit that you have plopped down at their feet. "But they have Stealth!" I hear you say. Yes they do, and this will mitigate shooting against them, but to get the benefit from stealth they have to be in or behind cover. So now you are in a situation where you have landed first turn, hopefully not directly into difficult terrain as you don't want to lose any of your models, and instead of shooting anything you are trying to get some piece of terrain between you and your opponent. You are also in a position where you want to land Morty and his unit far enough away so they can't be assaulted by heavy hitting CC specialists. On the next turn your Librarian will use summon to bring in support which cannot make any movement except run if an Infantry Squad and depending on how that goes Mordrak and his unit will either stay where they are or make a move toward the closest enemy. You have basically laid out your entire plan for the first two turns of the game to your opponent giving them a pretty big advantage. A savy player will be able to exploit this quickly and perhaps engage your weaker units or move to control the board. This is the reason I don't like Mordrak, you have spent quite a bit of points on him with none of the amazing upgrades that regular Grand Master's can take. His attached unit cannot count as scoring nor do they have access to any of the amazing upgrades that Terminators can take. Also, Terminator's are not very mobile at all and really rely on their shooting to make up for their slow movement. This is hampered even more by the Ghost Knights not having access to the most potent of all Gray Knight weaponry, the Psycannon. I'm not saying that you can't make this work, but there are better options in the codex for the points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2694249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mad Hatter Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The Summoning is a nifty power but also has a pretty big flaw when used in this combination in that it is activated at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement Phase. So you can't call anyone in to help you for an entire turn. This is not correct: DS is accomplished before the movement of any unit (first statement of Rolling for reserves section). Summoning, instead, works at the beginning of the librarian movement phase, that is not the player one, rather when you start to move the librarian (even saying that he doesn't move, or, as DS allows, he disembarks). Therefore, Summoning can be used after a DS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2694265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karsus Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Clear me if I'm wrong. Since Mordrak is non IC, Ghost Knights' Stealth USR confers to Mordrak as long as 1+ Ghost Knight(s) remain. Right? BTW I thought Ghost Knights can carry Psycannon and can shoot in turn 1 after they deepstrike via Relentless. Guess I'm wrong... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2694276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mad Hatter Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Clear me if I'm wrong. Since Mordrak is non IC, Ghost Knights' Stealth USR confers to Mordrak as long as 1+ Ghost Knight(s) remain. Right? Yes. BTW I thought Ghost Knights can carry Psycannon and can shoot in turn 1 after they deepstrike via Relentless. Guess I'm wrong... You would be right, if they had psycannons ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2694283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The Summoning is a nifty power but also has a pretty big flaw when used in this combination in that it is activated at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement Phase. So you can't call anyone in to help you for an entire turn. This is not correct: DS is accomplished before the movement of any unit (first statement of Rolling for reserves section). Summoning, instead, works at the beginning of the librarian movement phase, that is not the player one, rather when you start to move the librarian (even saying that he doesn't move, or, as DS allows, he disembarks). Therefore, Summoning can be used after a DS. I disagree with this, since there is no such think as a "Librarian's movement phase." The wording is poor, but it must mean the movement phase for the owning player of the Librarian. I could be wrong here, but I doubt it. You can't move half your army around and then cast The Summoning when you are ready to move the Librarian, and whatever squad he is attached to. Do it at the beginning of your turn, just like you would with other Deep Striking units. This also means that he can't Deep Strike in, and then immediate Summon reinforcements to his side. If it gets FAQd that he can operate in this manner, then that is cool with me, but it's not how I'm seeing it at this point. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/224952-the-education-of-mordrak/page/2/#findComment-2694649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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