The Education of Mordrak

[The Mad Hatter]

The Summoning is a nifty power but also has a pretty big flaw when used in this combination in that it is activated at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement Phase. So you can't call anyone in to help you for an entire turn.

 

This is not correct: DS is accomplished before the movement of any unit (first statement of Rolling for reserves section). Summoning, instead, works at the beginning of the librarian movement phase, that is not the player one, rather when you start to move the librarian (even saying that he doesn't move, or, as DS allows, he disembarks). Therefore, Summoning can be used after a DS.

 

I disagree with this, since there is no such think as a "Librarian's movement phase." The wording is poor, but it must mean the movement phase for the owning player of the Librarian. I could be wrong here, but I doubt it. You can't move half your army around and then cast The Summoning when you are ready to move the Librarian, and whatever squad he is attached to. Do it at the beginning of your turn, just like you would with other Deep Striking units. This also means that he can't Deep Strike in, and then immediate Summon reinforcements to his side. If it gets FAQd that he can operate in this manner, then that is cool with me, but it's not how I'm seeing it at this point.

 

Valerian

 

Well, I suppose it is matter of points of view. For what I've understood, it does exist a unit movement phase: it starts selecting the unit to move, and it finishes ending its movement (p.11: second paragraph). Yes, it is not officially called phase, I agree, but it actually is a phase. I mean, if it was the player movement phase, GW would have written it, as they usually do. This time, instead, GW specifies that the power has to be used "at the beginning of the phase of movement of the librarian". So, to my comprehension, it refers to the beginning of his movement.

Thus, if so, he can cast Summoning after DS. Otherwise, if the reference is about his player movement phase (although I wonder why to use a different owner reference), he can't.

I hope to see it clarified in the hopefully-soon-upcoming FAQ :P

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

But deep striking counts as having moved in the movement page. If you stand completely still after deep striking, you still count as having moved. So the Librarian moves onto the board by deep striking basically.

 

Pg 94:

 

"...when they arrive, these models may not move any further..."

"In that turn's Shooting phase, these units .... obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

[number6]

Resv and Valerian have it exactly right. The Librarian can't deep strike and then use the Summoning. Deep striking must happen at the beginning of the Movement phase, which precludes the use of The Summoning. You can't take an action obviously later than deep striking and still call it "the beginning of the Movement phase".

[The Mad Hatter]

But deep striking counts as having moved in the movement page. If you stand completely still after deep striking, you still count as having moved. So the Librarian moves onto the board by deep striking basically.

 

Pg 94:

 

"...when they arrive, these models may not move any further..."

"In that turn's Shooting phase, these units .... obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

 

Sure, but it doesn't necessarily classify DS as part of the movement itself. Simply it makes the model "count as" having moved. DS is presented as a type of deployment, and should come before any unit movement (p.94, Rolling for reserves, "before moving any unit").

 

Resv and Valerian have it exactly right. The Librarian can't deep strike and then use the Summoning. Deep striking must happen at the beginning of the Movement phase, which precludes the use of The Summoning. You can't take an action obviously later than deep striking and still call it "the beginning of the Movement phase".

 

Not necessarily. As I said, it depends on what Librarian's movement phase refers to (Librarian movement or player movement phase).

 

PS: Notice that I heard several opinions about, for both the interpretations, thus a doubt about does exist.

[number6]

Resv and Valerian have it exactly right. The Librarian can't deep strike and then use the Summoning. Deep striking must happen at the beginning of the Movement phase, which precludes the use of The Summoning. You can't take an action obviously later than deep striking and still call it "the beginning of the Movement phase".

 

Not necessarily. As I said, it depends on what Librarian's movement phase refers to (Librarian movement or player movement phase).

This is a distinction without a difference.

 

The Librarian is deep striking onto the table before making any attempt at The Summoning. Who is moving? At the beginning of its Movement phase? The Librarian is, because it is actually MOVING. In the MOVEMENT PHASE. The very beginning of it, even. Via Deep Strike.

 

The player is also moving the Librarian AT THE BEGINNING of the player's (army's) Movement phase. Because the Deep Strike rules themselves specify that this is when Deep Strike movement MUST happen.

 

No matter how you try to rules lawyerly parse the phrasing, you reach the same conclusion: The beginning of the movement phase -- whether it is "the player's (army's)" or "the Librarian's" -- is occupied with Deep Striking.

[DevianID]

Just to throw my 2 cents into the ring...

 

Deepstrike happens immediately at the beginning of the turn. It is possible (and my opinion) that this happens before the regular movement phase. There is a provision for out of phase actions in the beginning of the rule book, which interupt the normal sequence of play, in this case beginning your movement phase. Certainly deepstrike counts as movement, but whether it is the librarians movement phase move or an out of sequence action is highly debatable.

 

As a quick example, doesnt the rally rule for fleeing units specify beginning of the movement phase? And deepstrike happens at the beginning of your turn. Thus, does not deepstrike happen before rally?

[Resv]

Alright, I'm pulling out the rule book for this. BRB PG.95 P.5 L.1 -

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further..." The key words here are "when they arrive" and "Movement phase" sighting that they have moved onto the board even if they haven't walked six inches. The rule book doesn't say "of the turn they arrived," sorry but it doesn't.

 

It never says anywhere in the book that Deep Striking happens "before" the movement phase. Yes you roll for reserves at the beginning of the turn, deploying onto the table is fairly clear cut though.

 

As a quick example, doesnt the rally rule for fleeing units specify beginning of the movement phase? And deepstrike happens at the beginning of your turn. Thus, does not deepstrike happen before rally?

 

I believe you are talking about regrouping here, which happens at the beginning of the that units movement phase before they move (BRB PG.46). There is nothing in the book about regrouping taking place "before" the movement phase either as it is part of the movement phase.

[The Mad Hatter]

This is a distinction without a difference.

 

The Librarian is deep striking onto the table before making any attempt at The Summoning. Who is moving? At the beginning of its Movement phase? The Librarian is, because it is actually MOVING. In the MOVEMENT PHASE. The very beginning of it, even. Via Deep Strike.

 

The player is also moving the Librarian AT THE BEGINNING of the player's (army's) Movement phase. Because the Deep Strike rules themselves specify that this is when Deep Strike movement MUST happen.

 

No matter how you try to rules lawyerly parse the phrasing, you reach the same conclusion: The beginning of the movement phase -- whether it is "the player's (army's)" or "the Librarian's" -- is occupied with Deep Striking.

 

Your arguments are all based on the fact that DS is a movement, but, actually, it is not. DS is a deployment that makes you count as having moved (and, moreover, just partially, because it allows disembarking). You can see at p.95, last row of the first paragraph: "and then deploy them as follows", that includes everything (first,second and third paragraph) before to any allowed further movement (that is disembarking, fourth paragraph). Thus, from this point of view, the movement phase of the Librarian should start when he actually can move (although only to disembark), that is immediately after the DS.

 

Alright, I'm pulling out the rule book for this. BRB PG.95 P.5 L.1 -

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further..." The key words here are "when they arrive" and "Movement phase" sighting that they have moved onto the board even if they haven't walked six inches. The rule book doesn't say "of the turn they arrived," sorry but it doesn't.

 

Oh.. Well, Resv, you have a point. I missed that statement, and indeed it solves the problem. Well done :devil: (although it's a pity for the GK Alpha Strike :lol: )

[DevianID]

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further..."

 

Without having the rulebook in hand, IIRC the context is "In the movement phase of the turn they arrive, these units may not move any further..."

 

You still roll for reserves at the beginning of your turn, and deploy them before anything else, correct?

 

I will double check my rule book in a bit...

[Resv]

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further..."

 

Without having the rulebook in hand, IIRC the context is "In the movement phase of the turn they arrive, these units may not move any further..."

 

You still roll for reserves at the beginning of your turn, and deploy them before anything else, correct?

 

I will double check my rule book in a bit...

 

Sorry mate but it doesn't say that at all, and the context is what is being debated here. The rest of the Deep Strike entry use language that refers to "the turn" as in "In the Shooting phase of the turn." In fact they use the exact same language to set out what is allowed to take place in both the Shooting and Assault phases of the turn they arrive. One would think that if the context is as you have stated then would have used the same language for the movement phase as well, but they didn't. What they did write pretty clearly states "when they arrive." I know it is a bit laweryee but the language really does support that a Deep Striking unit arrives in the movement phase.

 

Reserved units arriving are deployed onto the board after the reserve roll but then the rule book states (BRB PG.94) "The player may then proceed to move his other units..." nowhere does it say "...then the movement phase begins..."

 

I realize that this is something that might need to be FAQed but I think the rule book is pretty clear already.

[number6]

This is a distinction without a difference.

 

The Librarian is deep striking onto the table before making any attempt at The Summoning. Who is moving? At the beginning of its Movement phase? The Librarian is, because it is actually MOVING. In the MOVEMENT PHASE. The very beginning of it, even. Via Deep Strike.

 

The player is also moving the Librarian AT THE BEGINNING of the player's (army's) Movement phase. Because the Deep Strike rules themselves specify that this is when Deep Strike movement MUST happen.

 

No matter how you try to rules lawyerly parse the phrasing, you reach the same conclusion: The beginning of the movement phase -- whether it is "the player's (army's)" or "the Librarian's" -- is occupied with Deep Striking.

 

Your arguments are all based on the fact that DS is a movement, but, actually, it is not. DS is a deployment that makes you count as having moved (and, moreover, just partially, because it allows disembarking). You can see at p.95, last row of the first paragraph: "and then deploy them as follows", that includes everything (first,second and third paragraph) before to any allowed further movement (that is disembarking, fourth paragraph). Thus, from this point of view, the movement phase of the Librarian should start when he actually can move (although only to disembark), that is immediately after the DS.

 

Alright, I'm pulling out the rule book for this. BRB PG.95 P.5 L.1 -

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further..." The key words here are "when they arrive" and "Movement phase" sighting that they have moved onto the board even if they haven't walked six inches. The rule book doesn't say "of the turn they arrived," sorry but it doesn't.

 

Oh.. Well, Resv, you have a point. I missed that statement, and indeed it solves the problem. Well done ^_^ (although it's a pity for the GK Alpha Strike -_- )

I just love how you took the time to attempt to counter my point only to concede it on exactly the grounds I was arguing right after the quotation break. :P ;)

 

Actually reading the rules FTW! ;)

[The Mad Hatter]

This is a distinction without a difference.

 

The Librarian is deep striking onto the table before making any attempt at The Summoning. Who is moving? At the beginning of its Movement phase? The Librarian is, because it is actually MOVING. In the MOVEMENT PHASE. The very beginning of it, even. Via Deep Strike.

 

The player is also moving the Librarian AT THE BEGINNING of the player's (army's) Movement phase. Because the Deep Strike rules themselves specify that this is when Deep Strike movement MUST happen.

 

No matter how you try to rules lawyerly parse the phrasing, you reach the same conclusion: The beginning of the movement phase -- whether it is "the player's (army's)" or "the Librarian's" -- is occupied with Deep Striking.

 

Your arguments are all based on the fact that DS is a movement, but, actually, it is not. DS is a deployment that makes you count as having moved (and, moreover, just partially, because it allows disembarking). You can see at p.95, last row of the first paragraph: "and then deploy them as follows", that includes everything (first,second and third paragraph) before to any allowed further movement (that is disembarking, fourth paragraph). Thus, from this point of view, the movement phase of the Librarian should start when he actually can move (although only to disembark), that is immediately after the DS.

 

Alright, I'm pulling out the rule book for this. BRB PG.95 P.5 L.1 -

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further..." The key words here are "when they arrive" and "Movement phase" sighting that they have moved onto the board even if they haven't walked six inches. The rule book doesn't say "of the turn they arrived," sorry but it doesn't.

 

Oh.. Well, Resv, you have a point. I missed that statement, and indeed it solves the problem. Well done ^_^ (although it's a pity for the GK Alpha Strike -_- )

I just love how you took the time to attempt to counter my point only to concede it on exactly the grounds I was arguing right after the quotation break. :D ;)

 

Same grounds? It doesn't seem at all. Your arguing was based on the fact that you consider DS a movement and that DS should happen in the Movement phase beginning. Resv, instead, based his on the fact that DS happens in the Movement phase, and not in its beginning (as reserves roll and Summoning do, instead).

I do not know Resv, as well as I do not know you. I had no reason to prefer his answer instead of yours. Simply, I think he demonstrated correctly his point. Nothing else.

[Pendantic]

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further..." The key words here are "when they arrive" and "Movement phase" sighting that they have moved onto the board even if they haven't walked six inches. The rule book doesn't say "of the turn they arrived," sorry but it doesn't.

it's talking about what they can do in there movement phase, anyways I think the issue is with the fact that no one can say with a 100% certainty the order of deepstriking that happens at the beginning of the movement phase or summoning that happens in the beginning of the movement phase, because no where in either of the rules is there a specific sentence saying "this happens after deepstriking" or "this happens before deepstriking" so for now it could be either way and so if it where to be faqd later to be not then atleast let us have a little fun before it happens, Eh?

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but what if you took mordrak+ghostknights+a unit of paladins with an apothecary and made sure to keep the apothecary within 6" of mordrak, every time you failed a wound he would roll to get another ghostknight then roll to feel no pain, as he gets a gk every time he suffers "an unsaved wound" and feel no pain is not a save.

 

this means mordrak could end up with a rapid growth of gk if you try to get him killed.

[HERO]

Modrack sucks. Move on.

[Liberame]

On pg. 94 of the brb where it talkes about arriving from Reserves, it states at the start of each Movement phase blah blah blah

 

I really hate having to keep referencing Tyranids in most of my posts, but I am fairly familiar with them.

 

The summoning power states it must be used at the beginning of the Librarians Movement phase. We all understand that and no one is arguing. What people are contesting however is whether or not the Librarian can use the power after he has arrived from Deep Strike. Some claim its still the beginning of his movement phase, others say its the end.

 

Tyranids have something very similar to this called Instinctive Behavior. "All unengaged Tyranid models that are not falling back or have gone to ground, must take a Leadership test at the beginning of their Movement phase." So that is pretty simple cut and dry, you can see the comparison. Now let's move on to the Tyranid FAQ

 

Q. Do Tyranid models have to test for Instinctive Behavior on the same turn they arrive from reserve?

A: No

 

This is because it must be done at the beginning of their Movement phase, and at the beginning they are in reserve.

 

Q. Do units who begin their turn more than 12" from any Synapse Creature have to test for Instinctive Behavior if any Synapse Creature arrives from reserve within 12" at the beginning of the Movement phase?

A: Yes - the model has begun its Movement phase outside of synapse range.

 

So at the beginning of your Movement phase you have to start your reserves. Anything having to be done at the beginning can not be performed while arriving from Deep Strike.

 

If a Librarian could cast Summoning after arriving from Deep Strike, Gargoyles would have to test for Instinctive Behavior after arriving from Deep Strike. Which they don't as per the FAQ.

 

Remember, Deep Strike is just a form of arriving from reserves.

[Chairman_woo]

Modrack sucks. Move on.

 

I'm not so shure about that, it might not be the foundation for a Ardboys list or whatever but a GM and 5 stealth terminators that can position anywhere on turn certainly 1 has its uses! You can still get that libby into position if you really want it, you just have to wait a turn to make full use of it, which with 3+cover sanctuary and halberds makes them very hard to shift if you place them right. Shunt some interceptors or DK's, or perhaps turboboost a raven or 2 and you could get up to all kinds of shenanigans.