GK vs. DE

[Decoy]

So a buddy of mine showed me his D.E. dex, because I had a thought. Crucible could pretty much WRECK a GK's day something fierce if it was Deepstruck down point blank with enemy GK.

 

My question in regards to that is... What happens to Psychic-based vehicles that are hit with the Crucible? Moreover, does anyone have any particular worries? Given the phrasing of the Grey Knight dex, I think... read, think... that the Crucible, if it works against a squad, would completely remove that squad, wouldn't it? Since the whole unit is treated as "A" psyker?

 

I may be horrendously wrong, and I kind of hope that I am, but... can anyone clarify this for me?

 

 

EDIT: Eliminated "Turn 1" on the deepstrike, because I'm dumb. ;)

[Joasht]

I think/hope only the Justicar would die, but its hard to say really. I need to re-read both codices later today. Still, doesn't change the fact the Crucible will hurt a GK army significantly.

[Decoy]

Well, my concern is the phrasing. If the GK unit is considered "A" psyker in pertinence to Psychic tests or such, then there's a hideously unbalanced power switch there.

 

Moreover, what about Vehicles? From what I understand, GK vehicles can cast powers, but without a Leadership, how would they respond to the Cruicible? There is a laundry list of potential abuse, all of which can end very poorly for the GK, and I'd love to see that there isn't such a blatant splattering of the entire GK range by one piece of relatively cheap wargear.

[RedMoon]

it specifically says under brotherhood of psyker rule that any perils or attack that specifically targets a psyker only effects the justicar and if one is not present it a effects one random brother in the squad.

[Decoy]

it specifically says under brotherhood of psyker rule that any perils or attack that specifically targets a psyker only effects the justicar and if one is not present it a effects one random brother in the squad.

 

See, that's where I'm worried. The wording is finicky. The Crucible doesn't target anything. I believe the wording is "Any Psyker within...". Maybe it comes from playing too much M:TG, where "Targetting" is quite different than "Affecting", but Crucible seems to blanketly hit everything without a whit of targeting. This is corroborated by the very nature of Crucible, where since Crucible is not a "targetted" attack, the rest of the squad can shoot whatever they want.

 

It may seem a stretch, and I see it as said stretch, but by the wording of the rule, it'd end up nuking the whole squad. Granted, they have to fail the test anyways (fat chance), but still. There's the chance.

[Gentlemanloser]

The unit counts as a single Psyker.

[RedemptionNL]

It only affects the Justicar/Knight of the Flame, or a random squad member if they are already dead. Vehicles are unaffected, as they're not technically psykers. They only have a Leadership value of 10 for the purpose of Psychic Tests, not other Leadership tests.

 

Combine that with the random range of the Crucible of Malediction, and it's really not that dangerous.

[DV8]

It only affects the Justicar/Knight of the Flame, or a random squad member if they are already dead. Vehicles are unaffected, as they're not technically psykers. They only have a Leadership value of 10 for the purpose of Psychic Tests, not other Leadership tests.

 

Combine that with the random range of the Crucible of Malediction, and it's really not that dangerous.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all Grey Knight vehicles are listed as "Psykers".

 

As for the Crucible, I believe that as mentioned, will remove only the Justicar/Keeper of the Flame (or a random squad member if already dead). I am of the thinking that while the Crucible doesn't specifically "Target" a psyker (per the usual Shooting Rules), it's attacks selectively single out Psykers (and thus "targets" them). A weapon that hit everybody within its radius without discrimination would not actually be "targetting" anything (as it just hits everything around it).

 

 

DV8

[RedemptionNL]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all Grey Knight vehicles are listed as "Psykers".

Unless they changed it in the final codex, it ony lists Psychic Pilot, not the generic 'Psyker' rule. Psychic Pilot says the vehicle only has a Leadership value of 10 for the purpose of Psychic tests and psychic hoods, nothing else. So there wouldn't even be any leadership value to test against with the Crucible of Malediction, even if it could target it.

 

A weapon that hit everybody within its radius without discrimination would not actually be "targetting" anything (as it just hits everything around it).

Semantics, you could just as easily say such a weapon targets everything. :P

[DV8]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all Grey Knight vehicles are listed as "Psykers".

Unless they changed it in the final codex, it ony lists Psychic Pilot, not the generic 'Psyker' rule. Psychic Pilot says the vehicle only has a Leadership value of 10 for the purpose of Psychic tests and psychic hoods, nothing else. So there wouldn't even be any leadership value to test against with the Crucible of Malediction, even if it could target it.

 

A weapon that hit everybody within its radius without discrimination would not actually be "targetting" anything (as it just hits everything around it).

Semantics, you could just as easily say such a weapon targets everything. :D

 

Touche...

 

 

DV8

[Rhino386]

Vehicles with the Psychic Pilot rule count as psykers at level 1. Leadership is for use with relevant tests & hood.

Given the fact that the Psychic Brotherhood rule will cop the brunt of the crucible to some degree or another it would look as though Psychic Pilot would also be affected.

At least that’s my interpretation.

[RedemptionNL]

Vehicles with the Psychic Pilot rule count as psykers at level 1. Leadership is for use with relevant tests & hood.

They actually changed the Psychic Pilot to say 'relevant tests' or does it still say only for Psychic Tests and psychic hoods? Else it still wouldn't have a Leadership value for the Crucible of Malediction to test against.

[Decoy]

After looking over the shooting rules, to my knowledge, Crucible does not follow any "Targeting" rules as they currently exist in the BRB. That disqualifies it, I think, from "Targeting" anything, simply because the current rules do not allow it. Think of a Vindicator targeting Squad A, but the scatter makes it hit Squad B. Squad B is not targeted, but it is nonetheless affected. If that's how it ends up... Crucible just got a whole lot better.

 

So Crucible essentially stands to be either a major hindrance (at best) or a colossal cluster :) at worst. I expect to see a few more of these in the local meta, unless the phrasing on Psychic Pilot and Psychic Brotherhood is different than expected.

[antique_nova]

i have the codex in front of me. It states:

 

If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or

Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead

 

thanks

antique_nova

[RedemptionNL]

Thanks antique_nova, can you type the Psychic Pilot rule as well? :P

[antique_nova]

PSYCHIC PILOT

 

A vehicle with this special rule is treat as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If the vehicle suffers the Perils of the warp, treat it as a glancing hit

[RedemptionNL]

Thanks! Well, no leadership for the Crucible of Malediction to test against then, as it's neither a Psychic Test or a psychic hood, so vehicles are immune at least. The squads will probably require a faq, but it seems it's intended it will only kill the justicar/random squad member.

 

Hardly a meta-changer then.

[Son of Rawl]

Reading the Dark Eldar codex it says that the Cruciable of Malediction affects any psyker within range forcing them to make a psychic test, if they fail they are removed from play no saves allowed, it doesn't do say anything about Perils test it just says psychic test.

 

Since the vehicle is technically a psyker I'm going to go with that they are affected as they can take a psychic test and are psykers. As for the squad I think it will just affect the Justicar since he makes the test as per the Brotherhood rule, but said rule also makes the unit a Psyker which due to wording affects them as well... I can see this brought up alot in games when the Cruciable is used as until GW tell us what it can and can't nuke.

[Decoy]

I was going to say, I think it forces a Psychic test... I don't have D. E. on me, though, so I didn't want to categorically say that. That would suck some nuggets if C.E. eats a psychic vehicle with all it's occupants.

[antique_nova]

Reading the Dark Eldar codex it says that the Cruciable of Malediction affects any psyker within range forcing them to make a psychic test, if they fail they are removed from play no saves allowed, it doesn't do say anything about Perils test it just says psychic test.

 

Since the vehicle is technically a psyker I'm going to go with that they are affected as they can take a psychic test and are psykers. As for the squad I think it will just affect the Justicar since he makes the test as per the Brotherhood rule, but said rule also makes the unit a Psyker which due to wording affects them as well... I can see this brought up alot in games when the Cruciable is used as until GW tell us what it can and can't nuke.

 

The CoM targets every psyker. So if it hits the GK unit, you only hurt one model! as said in the rules that i typed in. Yes, that would mean vehicles are vulnerable to this piece of wargear. Is it a shooting attack?

[Decoy]

The CoM targets every psyker. So if it hits the GK unit, you only hurt one model! as said in the rules that i typed in. Yes, that would mean vehicles are vulnerable to this piece of wargear. Is it a shooting attack?

 

That's what I'm getting at. No, it's not shooting. It's done instead of shooting, but it's not an attack, and it doesn't require you to target anything. It's like a blast template. Everything within 3d6".

 

Because it doesn't "target" anything, (the wording is "any Psyker within...") and is a blanket effect, it wouldn't apply to any "targeting" rules such as things like Aegis, Shrouding, et cetera. Likewise, it wouldn't fall to "specifically targeting psykers", simply because by virtue of the rules and how Crucible is written, it does not "target" anything, falling short of the requirements to only take casualties on the Brother Captain/Flame Knight.

[RedemptionNL]

Ah, I thought it forced a Leadership test instead of a Psychic Test. If that's true, I see no problem why it wouldn't work. Still hardly meta changing though, as it's a once per game random range mechanic that still only works ~8% of the time against Leadership 10. Not exactly reliable.

 

Does lead to questions what happens to a tranport's content when it is removed from play thoug.

[Decoy]

Well, to my knowledge, DE do have things that lower Leadership, meaning (if my memory serves right) that every unit near the Crucible could very well be subjected to having to take the Crucible test at ... (Again, my memory may be off...) Leadership 6? Maybe it's 8. Either way, it's... Ick. I'd gladly take the 10% chance to remove a 200+ point squad from the game with a... What, 50 point piece of wargear? 30? Get four squads within 3d6 inches (which is a huge variable, I know) and suddenly you suffer a half chance of losing a huge point investment for little to no gain. If that isn't a Meta-changer, I don't know what is. (I know around here, people have seriously reconsidered taking psykers, just for that 5 point Wolf Tail talisman that shuts down psychic powers 33% of the time, every time.)

 

I'd say that precedent has been set with Lukas the Trickster and his Stasis Bomb. A vehicle being removed from play with him (or with Crucible) is simply removed from the table, not "destroyed", meaning the squad inside is also removed from the table since they have no opportunity to disembark.

 

 

My main concern regarding this is rather simple; There are already a great number of people in my local meta scrabbling and converting Grey Knights, and an equal number of people picking up Dark Eldar (unrelated.) Since I rely somewhat heavily on Rune Priests (Storm Caller, mostly), a sudden increase of Crucibles due to Grey Knights might very well alter my game significantly.

[RedMoon]

it says it effects any psyker. a grey knight unit counts as just 1 psyker so the justicar first then if he isnt there just one normal guy takes the hit. i do agree a vehicle is effected but it will only take a glancing hit so thats not so scary at all. im very much not scared of this piece of wargear at all :cuss

[RedemptionNL]

Just checked my friend's DE codex, the Crucible forces a Leadership test, not a Psychic test. So vehicles are then indeed immune to the Crucible's effects, as there is no Leadership value to test against.

 

So then there's only the one model versus whole squad removed issue. I'm still edging towards just a single model removed, as the targeting thing seems like semantics, but I guess a FAQ would be good for that.